A question for you all...

[ANgkhulitmo]

Hello ladies and gents, I am new to this site and this would be my first post and since I have a tendency to instill alot of controversy with my conversations with the local populace I figured I would have an attempt at the online community and see if your more willing to discuss things.

First on the list, Christianity and the separations of the faiths. How is it that there are over a hundred different sects of christianity, yet you all read the same book?

Second up, Zealotry within the faith. I have no problems with people that believe in God, or Buddha or whomever they so chose, but i have a problem with zealots. And I have noticed a dramatic increase in the number of Christian zealots, why is it this faith accepts zealots and their hardline outlooks of my way or death. That is on par with the zealots of the muslim faith declaring a Ji'Had on those not of the muslim faith or of the muslim faith and not agreeing with them.


Third up, Why is it so many christian demean Charles Darwin and his research. How many of you realize that Charles Darwin and all of his research (including his book Origin of the Species) was in the pursuit of proving God's existence. Charles Darwin was a devout christian, and was attempting to prove God's existence with the tool that people claim disprove his existence.

Fourth up, Why is it that Christians feel that their moral and ethical bias is the correct one to lead America. Most of the middle eastern countries have a political system based upon their religious dogma and the rest of the world deems it demeaning and nearly sub-human in its treatment and punishments. What makes Christians think theirs would be any superior, when you have historical proof from previous Christian regimes they even with a Christian leadership it corrupts and eventually becomes the bane of true civilization.


Fifth up, With every year we find more and more historical evidence of every biblical story, but all the evidence is from non-christian societies, and hundreds if not thousands of years prior to the christian belief, so how is it with these facts coming to light can chrisitians continue to believe their bible is anything more then just a hint and tips guide to leading their life.


Sixth (and for now final) up, Why is it that there was a Council of Mycea in the first place to have a group of men determine what scriptures would and would not be approved for usage within the bible. I understand that having the entire 213 gospels pre-Council would in turn create a rather large book, but why couldnt the just make it into multiple books, as they did with the new and old testaments.


So yeah, those are the first in a list of questions i have, which living in the bible belt of America and being an Atheist normally cause people to not talk to me again heh, but I am assuming there are more open minded and willing to discuss people here. We will see.

 

[Digit]

Hi ANgkhulitmo,

Hello ladies and gents, I am new to this site and this would be my first post and since I have a tendency to instill alot of controversy with my conversations with the local populace I figured I would have an attempt at the online community and see if your more willing to discuss things.

Fire away.

First on the list, Christianity and the separations of the faiths. How is it that there are over a hundred different sects of christianity, yet you all read the same book?

Think of the denominations as different focuses on things. It is easily possible to read something, say a book, and find certain parts more touching than others.

Second up, Zealotry within the faith. I have no problems with people that believe in God, or Buddha or whomever they so chose, but i have a problem with zealots. And I have noticed a dramatic increase in the number of Christian zealots, why is it this faith accepts zealots and their hardline outlooks of my way or death. That is on par with the zealots of the muslim faith declaring a Ji'Had on those not of the muslim faith or of the muslim faith and not agreeing with them.

I guess it depends what you are referring to as zealotry. But remember that we cannot stop anyone from saying they are a Christian, just as I cannot stop you saying that you are a rocket-scientist. It does not mean you are, however.

Third up, Why is it so many christian demean Charles Darwin and his research. How many of you realize that Charles Darwin and all of his research (including his book Origin of the Species) was in the pursuit of proving God's existence. Charles Darwin was a devout christian, and was attempting to prove God's existence with the tool that people claim disprove his existence.

This is a huge question. But I think there are two main things, first up, those that believe in theistic evolution, accept Darwin and the work he begun. It is worth noting, that the theory of evolution as it is known today, is a far cry from what Darwin theorised. Secondly, there are those that do not believe in evolution, as they feel it removes God, or the requirement of God, from the picture of our origins, which is a wholly important part of the Bible.

Fourth up, Why is it that Christians feel that their moral and ethical bias is the correct one to lead America. Most of the middle eastern countries have a political system based upon their religious dogma and the rest of the world deems it demeaning and nearly sub-human in its treatment and punishments. What makes Christians think theirs would be any superior, when you have historical proof from previous Christian regimes they even with a Christian leadership it corrupts and eventually becomes the bane of true civilization.

I can't really comment on this, not living in America or being up to date on current events, but every time I see Bush deliver some speech and mention God's will or in God's name, I just really want to brick him. >_>

Fifth up, With every year we find more and more historical evidence of every biblical story, but all the evidence is from non-christian societies, and hundreds if not thousands of years prior to the christian belief, so how is it with these facts coming to light can chrisitians continue to believe their bible is anything more then just a hint and tips guide to leading their life.

This is a confusing question. First of all, the Bible talks a lot about non-Christian societies, so I'm not sure of their relevance in determining Biblical historicity and authenticity, second of all to this day we are fairly unaware of the exact timeline that we live in. I cannot judge things so accurately in the tiny timeframe of my life, to shed light on events that took place so long ago. Mankind battles to demonstrate what happened 1 day ago accurately, let alone many years back.

So yeah, those are the first in a list of questions i have, which living in the bible belt of America and being an Atheist normally cause people to not talk to me again heh, but I am assuming there are more open minded and willing to discuss people here. We will see.

I skipped your last question, as I've just realised it's 1am and I have work tomorrow!

Cheers!
Digit

 

[ANgkhulitmo]

Okay, lets see here...

#1 - going through and accepting but a portion of a book and accepting just a portion of the bible seem to be a different thing, as claimed by many christians. But lets run on that theory none the less, If you were to sit down and read through an entire book, and claimed and focused on just a single chapter as your favorite then are you not ignoring the book as a whole. Saying you only like one chapter of a thirty chapter novel would be ignoring the true story of the book, the true message within its pages, so if you were to take that and apply it to the christian denominations as you say, then they are taking but a single gospel and ignoring the rest which in turn that would be defying God's will which is that you take the whole book, not just parts.

#2 - Claiming christianity and not being christian. Okay, the keep point of that would be, what makes you a christians, is it some act, or some deed. By Christian dogma is says you must accept Jesus as your savior and love him entirely, so if some one was to accept Jesus, love Christ and God but then through your reading of the Bible you deem it perfectly okay to slaughter hundreds of people because they refuse to accept Jesus, would you then not really be a christian, and if not then how would you truly know if anyone would qualify as a christian.

#3 - Its nice to see someone that actually understands the dramatic difference between the theory of evolution and darwinian theory.


#4 - heh, i havent been in America much of my life, although i was born in it. As for Bush, i can comprehend your desire to brain him very well, as i am a former US military member myself, serving in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars both.


#5 - Time is a key aspect of this entire question. Which brings into questions many things but i will attempt to stay focused. The bible gives rather accurate portrayals of time, and date which is rather odd since man invented time. And yes time is a human invention, as odd as it sounds. For before humans gave it name and said it was this what was it? nothing, cause it didnt exist before or after we named it. Time is just another quanification of humans for the universe (yes i know that sounds rather religious but trust me its not), So why is it, that using the same concepts of time as the reference written by man while guided by God was their time even referenced. You would believe that such a paltry thing then as time to an immortal diety would be a moot thing and would never be annotated.

i will stop now, before i get carried away lol

 

[seashale76]

Hello ladies and gents, I am new to this site and this would be my first post and since I have a tendency to instill alot of controversy with my conversations with the local populace I figured I would have an attempt at the online community and see if your more willing to discuss things.

Yeah, people generally don't like to discuss religion when they know there will be differing opinions from their own. I enjoy it though.

First on the list, Christianity and the separations of the faiths. How is it that there are over a hundred different sects of christianity, yet you all read the same book?

Simple. People don't like the faith that was Traditioned and reinterpret things to match their ideals at the expense of submitting to God's ideals.

Second up, Zealotry within the faith. I have no problems with people that believe in God, or Buddha or whomever they so chose, but i have a problem with zealots. And I have noticed a dramatic increase in the number of Christian zealots, why is it this faith accepts zealots and their hardline outlooks of my way or death. That is on par with the zealots of the muslim faith declaring a Ji'Had on those not of the muslim faith or of the muslim faith and not agreeing with them.

I've noticed this trend as well, and I am also disturbed. I used to share their theology, but have since, quite happily discovered something much better.

Third up, Why is it so many christian demean Charles Darwin and his research. How many of you realize that Charles Darwin and all of his research (including his book Origin of the Species) was in the pursuit of proving God's existence. Charles Darwin was a devout christian, and was attempting to prove God's existence with the tool that people claim disprove his existence.

Yes, I'm aware of this as well. The evolution issue has become a non-issue for me.

Fourth up, Why is it that Christians feel that their moral and ethical bias is the correct one to lead America. Most of the middle eastern countries have a political system based upon their religious dogma and the rest of the world deems it demeaning and nearly sub-human in its treatment and punishments. What makes Christians think theirs would be any superior, when you have historical proof from previous Christian regimes they even with a Christian leadership it corrupts and eventually becomes the bane of true civilization.

Oh, you're talking about the so-called Evangelical majority. I watched an interesting show on CNN last night called God's Warriors that explored this in depth. You should look it up. Let's be honest though. There is and never will be any perfect government. Non-religious governments haven't fared much better.

Fifth up, With every year we find more and more historical evidence of every biblical story, but all the evidence is from non-christian societies, and hundreds if not thousands of years prior to the christian belief, so how is it with these facts coming to light can chrisitians continue to believe their bible is anything more then just a hint and tips guide to leading their life.

You'll have to be a bit more specific here, as your question isn't that clear. Anyway, I'll talk about what I think you're saying. Pre-Christian and pre-Judaistic faiths will have some things that are similar to Christian beliefs. This in no way negates those beliefs as being true. It is to the credit of those peoples that they held to some beliefs that were true. In the Christian belief they will be judged on the basis of their adherance to that which they knew. The Christian God didn't simply come into being with the incarnation. The one God has always existed.

Sixth (and for now final) up, Why is it that there was a Council of Mycea in the first place to have a group of men determine what scriptures would and would not be approved for usage within the bible. I understand that having the entire 213 gospels pre-Council would in turn create a rather large book, but why couldnt the just make it into multiple books, as they did with the new and old testaments.

The Council of Nicea was an Ecumenical Council. It was comprised of the entire Ecclesia. You see an earlier Ecumenical Council in Acts. There were certain books that were in use throughout the Church. The Church (and it is the Christian belief that the Ecclesia was entirely guided by the Holy Spirit) confirmed which books that were in general use were actually scripture. Some weren't considered scripture. However, none of it was dogmatically defined, interestingly enough. This shouldn't be surprising as Holy Tradition guided the Church up until that point, and it isn't a stretch to believe that Holy Tradition also guided the canon of scripture either. The Trinity, the New Testament, the Nicene Creed- all of these things were defined in the Ecumenical Councils. I have no problem with this concept.

So yeah, those are the first in a list of questions i have, which living in the bible belt of America and being an Atheist normally cause people to not talk to me again heh, but I am assuming there are more open minded and willing to discuss people here. We will see.

Really? I know plenty of atheists in the bible belt and people know it and talk to them all the time and treat them like everyone else.

 

[ANgkhulitmo]

Okay lets see here...


#1 - So, you are of the belief that you figured out the right answer and the others are just confused... but is that not also the original reasoning for the splitting of the faith.. martin luther not agreeing with the church and posting his letter on the door etc..

#2 thru 3 meh

#4 - There is only one true example of a non-religious government and that would be communist russia, which did not fail due to its lack of moral guidance by religion, it failed due to the egoist that were in command. But going off the concept of non-religious and religious governments lets compare.. Since we are stuck with Russis (the Communist period not modern day) lets look at a government that was actually ruled by the religions. Suadia Arabia is one such country so lets run with that.

Communist Russia - massive poverty due to corruption with its government officials.
Egotistical leadership resulting in an absence of concern for the citizenship
Slaughter of millions due to their difference of opinion towards the ruling government

now for three aspectsof Suadia Arabia and its religious rulership (and i picked this country for its more progressive views)

Suadia Arabia - Women regalled into a third class citizenship role due to their religious outlook
Violent reprecussions to minor criminal activity.
Death to any and all that oppose or express dislike of the religious beliefs.

So looking at that lets see here... Corrupt leaders caused the downfall of a non-religiously based government, while the religious government possesses inhumane treatments enmass as well as legalized prejudice.

So which would you prefer, a system of government based upon a book thousands of years old with no conceptual ideal of today, or ruled by people that have no concern of others... seems to be a lose lose situation. But there is one difference, in a non-religious governing body you are able to influence change for the better much more easily by instilling leadership focused on the people as a whole and not themselves. Where as a religious governing body is nearly impossible to change without severe reprecussions.

On the council (which yeah i said Mycae and its nicea but i was tired and couldnt remember the spelling), it was ordered by Constantine, presided over by him, and in turn during the council many of the bishops had to be persuaded to follow the beliefs of others. So your telling me that men of God guided by his wishes disagreed and had to be persuaded one way or another.

that sounds more like the congress of the US then a divinely controlled body.

 

[LJSGM]

First on the list, Christianity and the separations of the faiths. How is it that there are over a hundred different sects of christianity, yet you all read the same book?

They're called denominations, not sects, and they don't seperate us unless the specific person choses to seperate.

Some feel that it is due to a lack of true apostles in the church, so everyone has to draw on private interpretation. Just one theory

Second up, Zealotry within the faith. I have no problems with people that believe in God, or Buddha or whomever they so chose, but i have a problem with zealots. And I have noticed a dramatic increase in the number of Christian zealots, why is it this faith accepts zealots and their hardline outlooks of my way or death. That is on par with the zealots of the muslim faith declaring a Ji'Had on those not of the muslim faith or of the muslim faith and not agreeing with them.

Zealot as in wants to put people to death or something? I'm sorry, but I haven't seen many around, or an increase. Of course you always have crazies around claiming a certain religion in every part of the country, so one can count them out. But if you mean that they are serious believers and truely believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I wish there was an increase in these people.

Third up, Why is it so many christian demean Charles Darwin and his research. How many of you realize that Charles Darwin and all of his research (including his book Origin of the Species) was in the pursuit of proving God's existence. Charles Darwin was a devout christian, and was attempting to prove God's existence with the tool that people claim disprove his existence.

I'm not into the whole creation/vs. evolution thing. It doesn't really matter. A day could have been a million years for all we know. I guess it's because many atheists have used his work as a weapon against christianity.

Fourth up, Why is it that Christians feel that their moral and ethical bias is the correct one to lead America. Most of the middle eastern countries have a political system based upon their religious dogma and the rest of the world deems it demeaning and nearly sub-human in its treatment and punishments. What makes Christians think theirs would be any superior, when you have historical proof from previous Christian regimes they even with a Christian leadership it corrupts and eventually becomes the bane of true civilization.

It's because of patriotism, or nationalism. Christians grew up believing that America is a "christian" nation with "christian" founders, which neither were true. I don't really think Christians should have much to do with politics in fact, other then voting politically, and that which benifits the whole if they do want to get involved.
It is true that we do not live in the OT, and should not try and establish a OT type of society based on controlling others. There are many reasons for this, one of them being that the gospel, and believing in christ is a choice that no man can make for another person.

Fifth up, With every year we find more and more historical evidence of every biblical story, but all the evidence is from non-christian societies, and hundreds if not thousands of years prior to the christian belief, so how is it with these facts coming to light can chrisitians continue to believe their bible is anything more then just a hint and tips guide to leading their life.

The years are not facts, just guesses. The bible is the most historically accurate text know to man, and scholars do not make a habit of second guessing it, if they're not bias, that is.

Sixth (and for now final) up, Why is it that there was a Council of Mycea in the first place to have a group of men determine what scriptures would and would not be approved for usage within the bible. I understand that having the entire 213 gospels pre-Council would in turn create a rather large book, but why couldnt the just make it into multiple books, as they did with the new and old testaments.

Which texts do you think should be made into holy scriptures that haven't yet?

 

[ANgkhulitmo]

To LJSGM

#1 - sect 1.a body of persons adhering to a particular religious faith; a religious denomination.

So yes they are sects...


#2 - as in regards to zealotry, it is the fanatical. those with the belief of their supremecy of thought due to their own opinion or their sect's opinion.


#3 - Here is a quote from Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin.... "There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved"

#4 - i agree with your point of view that religion and politics should be separate

#5 - the measure of time that is currently used and also that is the basis of measure for time with in the bible are based upon the gregorian calendar system... so a day is a day...


#6 - i dont find any of them to be holy scripture especially not when men write them

 

[Digit]

Hey ANgkhulitmo,

#1 - going through and accepting but a portion of a book and accepting just a portion of the bible seem to be a different thing, as claimed by many christians. But lets run on that theory none the less, If you were to sit down and read through an entire book, and claimed and focused on just a single chapter as your favorite then are you not ignoring the book as a whole. Saying you only like one chapter of a thirty chapter novel would be ignoring the true story of the book, the true message within its pages, so if you were to take that and apply it to the christian denominations as you say, then they are taking but a single gospel and ignoring the rest which in turn that would be defying God's will which is that you take the whole book, not just parts.

I think it's more than just acceptance, it's a focus. Like I said, all Christians are by the nature of what they proclaim, Christian. Yet within that you have different focuses, that does not however mean that they are focuses to the exclusion of all else (else they would not be Christian). It is more than favourites too, it is something that those people feel speak especially to them. Speaking for myself, I am non-denominational, because I believe in wearing Christian as a tag, and only that. I see the denominations as useful, but do not believe they are helpful in being a Christian, they are more for our benefit, so we can find people who think like we do, basically.

#2 - Claiming christianity and not being christian. Okay, the keep point of that would be, what makes you a christians, is it some act, or some deed. By Christian dogma is says you must accept Jesus as your savior and love him entirely, so if some one was to accept Jesus, love Christ and God but then through your reading of the Bible you deem it perfectly okay to slaughter hundreds of people because they refuse to accept Jesus, would you then not really be a christian, and if not then how would you truly know if anyone would qualify as a christian.

If someone says they are a Christian, that is good enough for me. It is not between me and them ultimately, it is between us and God. I feel the Bible has enough guidelines for us to reliably know when someone is on the right path, and when someone is not. In your example of killing of hundreds of people, do you feel that complies with loving your neighbour, doing unto others as they do unto you? I do not.

#3 - Its nice to see someone that actually understands the dramatic difference between the theory of evolution and darwinian theory.

I actually didn't think Darwin was a Christian? But no matter, I think really much of this comes from study, if people really want to know, then there is a whole host of things that one can do to fulfill that knowledge hole. Either way, I would still say that this is not something that one should base their faith off of. I mean, look at medical science, it changes almost weekly, daily? On a personal level we have such a tiny window of opportunity in this world, who knows what will change in the future, and is it really prudent to base something that has such potential to be of the utmost of importance, off of something which has been demonstrated to be so fickle?

#4 - heh, i havent been in America much of my life, although i was born in it. As for Bush, i can comprehend your desire to brain him very well, as i am a former US military member myself, serving in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars both.

I think the US has some issues when it comes to Christianity, most of the emnity, and I don't say this as an indirect poke at you at all, that I have experienced has been from US residents. Good friends and complete strangers alike, and to be fair when I saw the videos of those people singing at soldier funerals I have to wonder if that's not the most insidious and clever attack against Christianity. I guess for an atheist it's hard to understand what we think about spiritual warfare and so forth, but I think many Christians notice the subtle attacks on our faith and you've only got to look at scripture, to the verses that say rejoice with those who are happy, and comfort those who are mourning to realise their behaviour was wrong and not in line with how Christians should act. >_<

#5 - Time is a key aspect of this entire question. Which brings into questions many things but i will attempt to stay focused. The bible gives rather accurate portrayals of time, and date which is rather odd since man invented time. And yes time is a human invention, as odd as it sounds. For before humans gave it name and said it was this what was it? nothing, cause it didnt exist before or after we named it. Time is just another quanification of humans for the universe (yes i know that sounds rather religious but trust me its not), So why is it, that using the same concepts of time as the reference written by man while guided by God was their time even referenced. You would believe that such a paltry thing then as time to an immortal diety would be a moot thing and would never be annotated.

I don't agree that we invented time. That hints at our creating it. That's like saying that humans invented gravity, of course we did not, it's been in existence since the beginings of the world. That doesn't mean we did not see it's effects, or feel them, just as we see and feel times effects on us. Time in the Bible is shown in two areas, one in relation to God, in that time for Him does not pass as (two) time to us. Events are given time frames as they put them in perspective. Such as a love for a partner. Someone who has waited one hour to see their partner, is not looked upon in the same light as someone who has waited 40 years to see their partner. Time helps us to relate to things.

Cheers! Nice talking to you.

Digit

 

[Adstar]

[FONT=&quot]

Hello ladies and gents, I am new to this site and this would be my first post and since I have a tendency to instill alot of controversy with my conversations with the local populace I figured I would have an attempt at the online community and see if your more willing to discuss things.

First on the list, Christianity and the separations of the faiths. How is it that there are over a hundred different sects of christianity, yet you all read the same book?

First off you are wrong we do not all read the same book. I read a Bible with 66 books while others read a bible that consists of more than 66 books.

As for all the divisions between those who read the Bible with 66 books that is because of different interpretations of what messages the book is giving.

Second up, Zealotry within the faith. I have no problems with people that believe in God, or Buddha or whomever they so chose, but i have a problem with zealots. And I have noticed a dramatic increase in the number of Christian zealots, why is it this faith accepts zealots and their hardline outlooks of my way or death. That is on par with the zealots of the muslim faith declaring a Ji'Had on those not of the muslim faith or of the muslim faith and not agreeing with them.

A Christian Who follows the teachings of Jesus will never be a physical danger to anyone, because the message of Jesus to His followers is to love even their enemies. So being a Zealot is a good thing when one is zealous for the Words of Jesus.

As for the muslims, we are not muslims they have a different view on the will of God.

Fourth up, Why is it that Christians feel that their moral and ethical bias is the correct one to lead America.

I am not an american and the world is a lot bigger than the usa.

Most of the middle eastern countries have a political system based upon their religious dogma and the rest of the world deems it demeaning and nearly sub-human in its treatment and punishments.

Wether it is demeaning or subhuman is irrelevant. We Christians do not believe it is the will of God. That is the important point.

What makes Christians think theirs would be any superior, when you have historical proof from previous Christian regimes they even with a Christian leadership it corrupts and eventually becomes the bane of true civilization.

I believe there has never been a truly Christian regime on planet earth. The Kingdom of Jesus is a Kingdom of faith that is within each person who follows Jesus. We wait for the Kingdom to come that will be established at the return of our Messiah Jesus. I believe we should not become involved in ruling the world.

Fifth up, With every year we find more and more historical evidence of every biblical story, but all the evidence is from non-christian societies, and hundreds if not thousands of years prior to the christian belief, so how is it with these facts coming to light can chrisitians continue to believe their bible is anything more then just a hint and tips guide to leading their life.

The Christian faith is a progression from Judaism, God had contact with the World way before Judaism so the similarities that exist is not surprising it points to a common source, the difference is We believe that the others have mixed their own thoughts whatever truth they hold is an echo from the distant pre-Babel past that has remained within their culture.

Sixth (and for now final) up, Why is it that there was a Council of Mycea in the first place to have a group of men determine what scriptures would and would not be approved for usage within the bible. I understand that having the entire 213 gospels pre-Council would in turn create a rather large book, but why couldnt the just make it into multiple books, as they did with the new and old testaments.

They put into the book what they needed to cover the story of God's interaction with man. And the Bible does give the will of God and covers the Words of Jesus.

So yeah, those are the first in a list of questions i have, which living in the bible belt of America and being an Atheist normally cause people to not talk to me again heh, but I am assuming there are more open minded and willing to discuss people here. We will see.

We will see if you are a genuine seeker too.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days[/FONT]

 

[salida]

First, I'm a scientist. Darwinism? When he claims that sometime comes from nothing - this is bad science. This isn't science - but was a scam to deceive many people. I strongly suggest you visit www.reasons.org - which is about science and belief. I believe a PhD in Chemistry created this website. Science is also in the Bible.

Microevolution is true and some macroevolution.

Bible before Science

He hangs the earth on nothing &#8211; Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago &#8211; some scholars think it could have been even 3000
years ago)
Note: Man only knew the above for 350 years.
Earth is a sphere &#8211; Isaiah 40:22/Air has weight &#8211; Job 28:25/
Gravity &#8211; Job 26:7, Job 38: 31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

They continuously find archeological evidence nonstop. Where are you getting your information about this? I have to deeply question it.

 

[Lukaris]

Do not have time to read whole thread but re Darwinism, why does an institutionalized group need to enforce it as an ideology? see http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/355535/ben_stein_takes_on_scientific_integrity.html?page=2

 

[RevCowboy]

Howdy ANg...

I am relatively new to this site as well, but not to online discussion forums. As you can already see there have been a variety of answers to your questions, and so perhaps I can provide another perspective, and that is of a professional theologian. I currently working on my Masters of Divinity and I already have a BA in History and Theology. Most of what is available in the media regarding Christianity, its theology, its history, its traditions is of a popular nature, rather than professional, hence pop-theology.

First on the list, Christianity and the separations of the faiths. How is it that there are over a hundred different sects of christianity, yet you all read the same book?

Over 100? Try 26000. About 19000 of those are just pentecostal. But lets not forget that Judaism and Islam also use the Old Testament as holy writings. I have a saying, "The only problem with organized religion is the people". Christianity isn't necessarily the problem, people are. Consider how many different languages we speak, how many countries there are, how many political views and opinions there are. Its tough enough to get 10 people in the same room doing the same thing. The reality of human beings is that we are so different one from another that its amazing we do anything that is the same. So rather the fact that so many different sects, denominations and even religions using this same group of writings for centuries if not millenia, than perhaps there is something to this book that we all use. The message must contain something good for so many of us, who can't agree on much at all, to be using it.

Second up, Zealotry within the faith. I have no problems with people that believe in God, or Buddha or whomever they so chose, but i have a problem with zealots. And I have noticed a dramatic increase in the number of Christian zealots, why is it this faith accepts zealots and their hardline outlooks of my way or death. That is on par with the zealots of the muslim faith declaring a Ji'Had on those not of the muslim faith or of the muslim faith and not agreeing with them.

I have a problem with zealots too. Fanatcism or extreme fundamentalism is a temptation. A temptation to turn off your brain. And you don't have to look just to religion to find it. There are folks just as zealous as jihadist and willing to kill because they are Manchester United Fans and they have Liverpool F.C. Again the problem is people, not necessarily religion.

Third up, Why is it so many christian demean Charles Darwin and his research. How many of you realize that Charles Darwin and all of his research (including his book Origin of the Species) was in the pursuit of proving God's existence. Charles Darwin was a devout christian, and was attempting to prove God's existence with the tool that people claim disprove his existence.

This is probably where Christians are too influenced by pop-theology. Charles Darwin began life as a Christian, wafted to Atheism and died a Deist. He mentioned God a number of times in Origin of Species. Darwin was a scientist doing what scientist do. He was trying to figure out how the world works. But science cannot answer the why, because science by its own methodology is only about observable empirical data. Religion is concerned with matters beyond the empirical and measurable. Darwin has been wrongly vilified in this case.

As far as evolution goes I find it hard to argue with it, as I have stood in the office of paleontologists and looked the actual fossil of a snake with legs. I leave the science up to the scientists. Evolution is like a big puzzle with pieces being put together in different places by physics, chemistry, biology, geology etc.. and the more pieces they put together, the more and more is becomes clear that it is all the same picture.

I am not scientist, and I have no real significant interest in arguing with scientist. But as a theologian, it is the Bible's own cosmology or scientific understanding that I am interested with. When you read Genesis in Hebrew it becomes clear that the earth it is describing is not as we understand and know it to be. Genesis describes a flat earth, with solid hard dome as the sky. Embedded in the dome are the sun, moon and stars. Above this dome is water and above the water is heaven. When God wanted it rain he would open up a window in the dome and let some water in.

The reality of Genesis is that it reflects an Ancient Near Eastern understanding of science, the problem is modern Christians read it with our understanding of the world and fudge over the parts that don't work. Take the word firmament for example. It does not mean sky, it means hard surface, but we so blissfully fudge that over. The science in Genesis is from a people who tried to explain the world as the literally saw it. Modern people understand that we can be deceived by our own eyes. The Sun is small glowing ball in the sky according to our eyes, but we know that its much bigger than the earth.

The problem that Christians encounter is when they try to read the Bible as a science text book. It is not a text book, rather even with their flawed way of understadning the world, the Ancient Near Easter people understood the important part of Genesis was not "how" the earth was made, but "who" did it and "why". This is the message the Christians should looking to take from Genesis.

Fourth up, Why is it that Christians feel that their moral and ethical bias is the correct one to lead America. Most of the middle eastern countries have a political system based upon their religious dogma and the rest of the world deems it demeaning and nearly sub-human in its treatment and punishments. What makes Christians think theirs would be any superior, when you have historical proof from previous Christian regimes they even with a Christian leadership it corrupts and eventually becomes the bane of true civilization.

I am a Canadian, but I think that the current "Christian " moral and ethical bias of the Bush administration is neither moral nor ethical and not even Christian for the matter.

Nor do I think, as Canadian and professional theologian, that religious leadership is appropriate for multi-cultural societies. I am very comfortable with Canada's secular government.

Fifth up, With every year we find more and more historical evidence of every biblical story, but all the evidence is from non-christian societies, and hundreds if not thousands of years prior to the christian belief, so how is it with these facts coming to light can chrisitians continue to believe their bible is anything more then just a hint and tips guide to leading their life.

You will have to give me some examples of this, there has been nothing that a non-Christian society has discovered regarding the historicity of the bible that biblical scholars have not already known for decades. The tomb of Jesus discovered by James Cameron? What was wrong the with the established tombs of the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants that been known about for decades or centuries even? They weren't important enough for the media to mention? Don't believe everything you hear on ET, Fox News or CNN. Ask a professional, not a movie director.

If you want some books by biblical scholars that actually explain the historicity of the Bible I can recommend some.

Sixth (and for now final) up, Why is it that there was a Council of Mycea in the first place to have a group of men determine what scriptures would and would not be approved for usage within the bible. I understand that having the entire 213 gospels pre-Council would in turn create a rather large book, but why couldn't the just make it into multiple books, as they did with the new and old testaments.

The Council of Nicaea was actually not the council at which the canon (list) of books in the Bible was agreed upon, it was merely the precedent setting first of several councils. The Council of Nicaea outlined orthodox(correct) Christian doctrine. The Nicene Creed is major outcome of this council and is a succinct formulation of Christian belief.

The formation of the biblical canon however, was not just about having a book that was short enough to read. Rather the council decided upon books and letters that conformed to orthodox Christian doctrine. The 4 gospels decided upon agreed with the theology of the letters of Paul which were the earliest Christian documents written beginning in 50AD about 20 years after Christ's death. Now, remember that we are talking about a pre-printing press society with very low literacy. Oral tradition was much stronger. Oral tradition in this time was exceptionally reliable and it took several generations for stories to change. We know this because of studies of modern pre-literate societies of Africa. The four Gospels chosen reflected better the oral traditions about and were all written with the 1st or 2nd generation since his death. Whereas the rest of the Gospels written were written several generations after and well into the second century. You can see by how crazy they sound that they were written around the time when the Oral traditions would have been distanced by enough time to be changed and modified.

And the faith element of the agreement of the canon is important to Christians. We believe the Holy Spirit guided the Early Church Fathers to agree upon the writings of the Church that were indeed divinely inspired.

So yeah, those are the first in a list of questions i have, which living in the bible belt of America and being an Atheist normally cause people to not talk to me again heh, but I am assuming there are more open minded and willing to discuss people here. We will see.

I hope I answered some of your questions from a different perspective. And trust me I have no problem with Athesists. I see them as fellow people of faith because it takes just as much faith to believe that there isn't a God as does to believe there is one.

 

[salida]

Also, the Bible is the only book period that has hundreds of detailed prophesies in it that has come true and more to come. Below in formation in a nutshell. Plus, read Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in court) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest).

Biblical Evidence – This is a very small amount of information
out of large amounts of information out there.

Internal Evidences-Prophesies that are confirmed with Bible;

mentioning only a few – but there are hundreds.

Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen. 49:10, Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke’s time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5, Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 – four kingdoms are described in the interpretation
of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek – Daniel 8:21, 10:20/ and a fourth great kingdom to follow which was part iron and clay – which is the
Roman Empire – during this empire, Christ came and the church was established – Daniel 2:44.

Historical Accuracy

The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events of hundreds of years ago, yet
none of them has been proven to be incorrect.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents)
New Testament – starts at 25 years – between the original and surviving copies
Homer- starts at 500 years/Demosthenes – at 1400 years/Plato – at 1200 years/
Caesar – at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies

New Testament – 5,686/Homer – 643/Demosthenes – 200/Plato – 7/Caesar – 10

Consistency – Written by 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no
Internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration- It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.


External Evidences

(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never to be built again- and they haven’t.
Niveveh – Nahum 1:10, 3:7, 15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon – Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre -Ezekiel 26:1-28

Bible before Science

He hangs the earth on nothing – Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago – some scholars think it could have been even 3000
years ago)
Note: Man only knew the above for 350 years.
Earth is a sphere – Isaiah 40:22/Air has weight – Job 28:25/
Gravity – Job 26:7, Job 38: 31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True

Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogical Evidence (Still adding to this list today- it hasn’t stopped)
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[Nienor]

Debate is not allowed in this section. Continuing to debate here will lead to this thread being closed or moved.

 

[YourChild]

First on the list, Christianity and the separations of the faiths. How is it that there are over a hundred different sects of christianity, yet you all read the same book?

Before answering any of your questions, I want to establish the point that some of my answers are not based solely on the laws of this earth. Scientific laws such as physics, man's philosphies, etc etc. God is not bounded by the laws of the earth..The answers and reasonings of the Christian faith stretches into the spiritual realm.

There is a spiritual battle going on but man cannot see it. There is a major opposing force and its led by the devil. The devil will attempt to infiltrate the Church of God and create dissension and corruption. Denominations exist for this reason. This is not to say that in each denomination there arent people who dont love God - I think theres God lovers in every denomination. But its more like...you prefer to eat with a fork and I prefer to eat with a spoon. Not a really good analogy but that should do it for now.

Second up, Zealotry within the faith. I have no problems with people that believe in God, or Buddha or whomever they so chose, but i have a problem with zealots. And I have noticed a dramatic increase in the number of Christian zealots, why is it this faith accepts zealots and their hardline outlooks of my way or death. That is on par with the zealots of the muslim faith declaring a Ji'Had on those not of the muslim faith or of the muslim faith and not agreeing with them.

There exists only 1 truth, 1 God, 1 Creator and that is that. The devil's goal is to lure people into false religion to drag people away from God and take them to hell.
The Christian faith does not teach believers to run around with grenades and guns kiilling those who do not follow you. Instead, we want to win people's heart by showing them that we do love them and are trying to reach out to them. The muslim faith follows the Koran (thats like their bible). The Koran starts out teaching peace and love and in the middle of the book, it switches tone and suddenly says something like, "Kill everyone who does not follow your teaching and you will please me!"

'me' is refering to their god. The devil takes the truth and twists it to deceive man. So muslims think they are doing God a favor but they really arent. God is the God of life. He opposes death.

Third up, Why is it so many christian demean Charles Darwin and his research. How many of you realize that Charles Darwin and all of his research (including his book Origin of the Species) was in the pursuit of proving God's existence. Charles Darwin was a devout christian, and was attempting to prove God's existence with the tool that people claim disprove his existence.

I dont know about this one but when I was in college, Darwin's theory was taught and it seemed like he was out to prove evolution. he originally was a Christian and after his research during the Beagle Voyage, his faith in God was shipwrecked because he thought he had the answers to the existence of mankind...which up to this day has not been proven...where are the millions of bones of transitional forms?

Fourth up, Why is it that Christians feel that their moral and ethical bias is the correct one to lead America. Most of the middle eastern countries have a political system based upon their religious dogma and the rest of the world deems it demeaning and nearly sub-human in its treatment and punishments. What makes Christians think theirs would be any superior, when you have historical proof from previous Christian regimes they even with a Christian leadership it corrupts and eventually becomes the bane of true civilization.

True righteousness is only found in God. And the only way to understand what true righteousness is, is to know His Word...the Bible....Christians do not think we are superior to anyone. Infact, the Bible tells us to think others are better than us. God delights in the humble hearts and thats how every Christian should be. I dont know about the history of killings done by those who say they are doing it to please God...Old Testamment wars are different..but what you are talking about is probably the crusades? Just know that God does not want anyone to be forced to Him...He wants us to love Him out of our own will.. Those killing others to force their beliefs in God are actually doing the works of the devil.

Fifth up, With every year we find more and more historical evidence of every biblical story, but all the evidence is from non-christian societies, and hundreds if not thousands of years prior to the christian belief, so how is it with these facts coming to light can chrisitians continue to believe their bible is anything more then just a hint and tips guide to leading their life.

Christianity is the belief in God, the Creator of the Universe and His plan of redemption for the souls of sinful mankind. This stemmed back all the way to the beginning of time when Adam and Eve was created. This is back way before any of the dates on these historical evidences. If you check out the Bible and its historical records, you'll see that it started out at the beginning of time.


Now let me share with you a little bit of what I have experienced and encounter with God. I have seen supernatural things happened. I have seen demons get cast out of people in Jesus' Name. I have witnessed people being spiritually healed. I have also felt God's precious holy presence right before me in prayer. His presence is the most beautiful thing I've ever felt my entire life. Of course, me telling you all of this is probably not enough evidence for you to believe what I'm saying...but yea the truth is all there and available to you if you are serious about geting down with the facts. Crack open a Bible and see what its saying...Thats when your real research begins.

God bless you.

 

[WarEagle]

First on the list, Christianity and the separations of the faiths. How is it that there are over a hundred different sects of christianity, yet you all read the same book?

Yes, we do read the same book.
And "the book" tells us that there are some doctrines we must adhere to (essentials), some doctrines that we may disagree on (non-essentials).

In the Bible, God instructs us to give the liberty to other believers to disagree on some issues, so it is clear from that that God understands that there will be disagreements and He has made provisions for that.

If disagreements were not allowed, then the Bible wouldn’t tell us to give liberty to one another to disagree. It would class these "disputable matters" with the essentials and tell us that we must adhere to them, too.

If you were to go through the Bible and make a list of the five essential doctrines and then look through the various Christian "sects", you’d see that they all agree on what they are. They may not express it in the same way, but they are all in agreement.

Second up, Zealotry within the faith. I have no problems with people that believe in God, or Buddha or whomever they so chose, but i have a problem with zealots. And I have noticed a dramatic increase in the number of Christian zealots, why is it this faith accepts zealots and their hardline outlooks of my way or death.

Could you please give an example? I’ve never heard of a Christian who believed this. It certainly isn’t what Christianity teaches.

That is on par with the zealots of the muslim faith declaring a Ji'Had on those not of the muslim faith or of the muslim faith and not agreeing with them.

Again, when has any Christian done this?

Third up, Why is it so many christian demean Charles Darwin and his research. How many of you realize that Charles Darwin and all of his research (including his book Origin of the Species) was in the pursuit of proving God's existence. Charles Darwin was a devout christian, and was attempting to prove God's existence with the tool that people claim disprove his existence.

Actually, Charles Darwin wasn’t a devout Christian. He was a devout humanist.

While it is true that he was raised in the Anglican church, it is equally true that, as his life went on, he abandoned his beliefs and became increasingly hostile toward God.

He wrote many times in the later part of his life about his rejection of the Bible, his rejection of Christianity, and even, at one point, of the "murder" of God.

I see no reason to demean him or his research.

However, because his writings contradict God’s word, it is perfectly reasonable to examine them in that light and refute them.

Fourth up, Why is it that Christians feel that their moral and ethical bias is the correct one to lead America

Why did the Founding Fathers feel that Christianity was the correct moral and ethical bias to lead America?

Would you rather have a bias that says that all men are created equal or would you rather have the caste system that existed in so many societies that had no Christian influence?

Would you rather have a bias where all religions and political ideologies are welcome? Or would you rather have Sharia law?

Would you rather live under a Christian influenced system that upholds the rule of law? Or would you rather live under an atheist system that has no objective moral underpinning?

One of the pillars of Marxist Communism is atheism.
Would you say that Stalinist Russia, Red China, North Korea, etc, would be good places to live?

Most of the middle eastern countries have a political system based upon their religious dogma and the rest of the world deems it demeaning and nearly sub-human in its treatment and punishments. What makes Christians think theirs would be any superior, when you have historical proof from previous Christian regimes they even with a Christian leadership it corrupts and eventually becomes the bane of true civilization.

While we are based on Christian principles, we are not a theocracy.

Fifth up, With every year we find more and more historical evidence of every biblical story, but all the evidence is from non-christian societies, and hundreds if not thousands of years prior to the christian belief, so how is it with these facts coming to light can chrisitians continue to believe their bible is anything more then just a hint and tips guide to leading their life.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, but there is very much archaeological evidence for the historical accuracy of both the old and new testaments.

We believe the Bible because it is historically accurate, archaeologically accurate, prophetically accurate, and internally consistent.

Sixth (and for now final) up, Why is it that there was a Council of Mycea in the first place to have a group of men determine what scriptures would and would not be approved for usage within the bible. I understand that having the entire 213 gospels pre-Council would in turn create a rather large book, but why couldnt the just make it into multiple books, as they did with the new and old testaments.

The purpose of the Nicean Council wasn’t so much to put the Bible together as it was to protect the Bible from outside, corrupting influences, specifically, the Gnostic Gospels.

The books of the Bible were already widely circulated in the church and were already considered to be the authoritative and objective standard by which doctrine and practices were to be determined.

If books were rejected, it was largely because they were not consistent with the theme of the canonical books.

 

[ebia]

Hello ladies and gents, I am new to this site and this would be my first post and since I have a tendency to instill alot of controversy with my conversations with the local populace I figured I would have an attempt at the online community and see if your more willing to discuss things.

First on the list, Christianity and the separations of the faiths. How is it that there are over a hundred different sects of christianity, yet you all read the same book?

Because we are imperfect our understanding will always be imperfect. Christianity isn't about being given a small set of simply answers but growing in relationship with a complex God and the rest of his creation. We are all heading for the same thing, but it's inevitable that our routes will differ.

Second up, Zealotry within the faith. I have no problems with people that believe in God, or Buddha or whomever they so chose, but i have a problem with zealots. And I have noticed a dramatic increase in the number of Christian zealots, why is it this faith accepts zealots and their hardline outlooks of my way or death. That is on par with the zealots of the muslim faith declaring a Ji'Had on those not of the muslim faith or of the muslim faith and not agreeing with them.

Perhaps you had better clarify what exactly you mean by 'zealot'.

Third up, Why is it so many christian demean Charles Darwin and his research. How many of you realize that Charles Darwin and all of his research (including his book Origin of the Species) was in the pursuit of proving God's existence. Charles Darwin was a devout christian, and was attempting to prove God's existence with the tool that people claim disprove his existence.

I don't (demean Darwin) , but it is possible for someone to make a mistake. If you want to discuss this in detail there are specific forums for it.

Fourth up, Why is it that Christians feel that their moral and ethical bias is the correct one to lead America.

Most people believe their moral and ethical bias is the correct one to lead their society - that kind of follows unless you are a post-modernist.

Most of the middle eastern countries have a political system based upon their religious dogma and the rest of the world deems it demeaning and nearly sub-human in its treatment and punishments. What makes Christians think theirs would be any superior, when you have historical proof from previous Christian regimes they even with a Christian leadership it corrupts and eventually becomes the bane of true civilization.

All political systems involving people, without exception, have had similar problems. The myth that is wearing thin is that secular rationalism will do any better; it hasn't so far. The attempts at religion free societies have all turned out the same way.

Fifth up, With every year we find more and more historical evidence of every biblical story, but all the evidence is from non-christian societies, and hundreds if not thousands of years prior to the christian belief, so how is it with these facts coming to light can chrisitians continue to believe their bible is anything more then just a hint and tips guide to leading their life.

This paragraph isn't clear - I'm not sure what the question is.

Sixth (and for now final) up, Why is it that there was a Council of Mycea in the first place to have a group of men determine what scriptures would and would not be approved for usage within the bible. I understand that having the entire 213 gospels pre-Council would in turn create a rather large book, but why couldnt the just make it into multiple books, as they did with the new and old testaments.

The councils didn't determine what books were in the bible - they rubber-stamped the process which had much more to do with looking at which books were actually being used in worship.

 

[Gareth]

The third question about Darwin reminded me what he said about the complexity of the eye, how perfect it's formation and function and that it was designed not developed (evolved). Don't tell Richard Dawkins he'd have a fit.

 

[Gareth]

Your fifth point actually reinforces that the bible is from God, and that the archeological evidence that pre-dates the Christian era attests to that fact. There has over time been found cities and places that at one time only existed in the Bible. Recently a piece of pottery was found that contained a story very similar to the one of David slaying Goliath and was dated to that time period. No, every single piece of evidence found that supports the Bible renews my faith and conviction.