A Question for Trinitarians

[Clare73]

What exactly I've denied? Your interpretation? I do believe what God and Jesus says, can support it with hundreds of quotes. Please bear this Terms and Rules in mind while answering.

Sandbox. . .

 

[Think...]

What is the name of the "Father," "Son" and "Holy Ghost"?

His Name is Jesus Christ.

 

[Daniel Peres]

A common problem with people trying to understand the Trinity is the word person. The word person comes from the Latin word “persona” which means face. The word persona comes from the Greek word “pro spoon” which also means face or theatrical mask.

So, you see God has three faces. Furthermore, this is not just a New Testament thing. In the OT you also see that God has more than one face. In Exodus you see Moses talking face to face with God one second. and then there seems to be another face of God he is not able to look at or he will die. Interestingly, in the NT Jesus even says he is the only one to have seen the father.

Then there is the Bread of the Presence aka Shewbread. Which was bread in the temple that was always present before God. In actuality, the literal translation of this bread is the bread of the faces (plural).

It’s also important to keep in mind that the three persons/faces are not separate at all. Each face contains all three. In other words, the father is the one true God as are the son and the Holy Spirit.

Lastly, as far as baptizing in the name of Jesus, this can only mean the Trinitarian baptism taught by Jesus as compared to other baptisms like the baptism of John.

 

[Clare73]

A common problem with people trying to understand the Trinity is the word person. The word person comes from the Latin word “persona” which means face. The word persona comes from the Greek word “pro spoon” which also means face or theatrical mask.

So, you see God has three faces. Furthermore, this is not just a New Testament thing. In the OT you also see that God has more than one face. In Exodus you see Moses talking face to face with God one second. and then there seems to be another face of God he is not able to look at or he will die. Interestingly, in the NT Jesus even says he is the only one to have seen the father.

Then there is the Bread of the Presence aka Shewbread. Which was bread in the temple that was always present before God. In actuality, the literal translation of this bread is the bread of the faces (plural).

It’s also important to keep in mind that the three persons/faces are not separate at all. Each face contains all three. In other words, the father is the one true God as are the son and the Holy Spirit.

The persons are separate, for the Father sends the Son, the Father sends the Holy Spirit, the Son sends the Holy Spirit, etc.
Persons don't send themselves, they send a separate person.

 

[Daniel Peres]

The persons are separate, for the Father sends the Son, the Father sends the Holy Spirit, the Son sends the Holy Spirit, etc.
Persons don't send themselves, they send a separate person.

Then why does Jesus say “If you have seen me, then you have seen the father.” You are basically calling Jesus a liar, although perhaps unintentionally. Furthermore, If they were separate then they would be separate gods. Christianity is a Jewish religion and in Judaism there is only one God. Are you some kind of Gnostic?

 

[Think...]

A common problem with people trying to understand the Trinity is the word person. The word person comes from the Latin word “persona” which means face. The word persona comes from the Greek word “pro spoon” which also means face or theatrical mask.

So, you see God has three faces. Furthermore, this is not just a New Testament thing. In the OT you also see that God has more than one face. In Exodus you see Moses talking face to face with God one second. and then there seems to be another face of God he is not able to look at or he will die. Interestingly, in the NT Jesus even says he is the only one to have seen the father.

Then there is the Bread of the Presence aka Shewbread. Which was bread in the temple that was always present before God. In actuality, the literal translation of this bread is the bread of the faces (plural).

It’s also important to keep in mind that the three persons/faces are not separate at all. Each face contains all three. In other words, the father is the one true God as are the son and the Holy Spirit.

Lastly, as far as baptizing in the name of Jesus, this can only mean the Trinitarian baptism taught by Jesus as compared to other baptisms like the baptism of John.

What you're describing is more of a Modalism view which describes God as having three modes. That is not accurate to the official explanation of the trinity by the Catholic Church.

And to claim they are not separate is also not accurate with the official definition.

And THAT is why so many have problems with the concept. Nobody can define it. Not even the most authoritative experts and they admit that it can't be defined and must simply be accepted as a mystery.

 

[Daniel Peres]

What you're describing is more of a Modalism view which describes God as having three modes. That is not accurate to the official explanation of the trinity by the Catholic Church.

And to claim they are not separate is also not accurate with the official definition.

And THAT is why so many have problems with the concept. Nobody can define it. Not even the most authoritative experts and they admit that it can't be defined and must simply be accepted as a mystery.

I certainly do not uphold modaliam. I am not even explaining what the faces represent for I don’t know. I am just stating the word person actually means faces or masks as opposed to individuals. I agree no one fully understands the Trinity. There is an old Catholic saying. If you think you have completely figured out the Trinity, you have already committed heresy.

 

[Clare73]

Then why does Jesus say “If you have seen me, then you have seen the father.”

If you see Jesus, you see the Father. . .one nature (divine), one God. . .does not negate three separate persons in the one God, one Being.

You are basically calling Jesus a liar, although perhaps unintentionally. Furthermore, If they were separate then they would be separate gods. Christianity is a Jewish religion and in Judaism there is only one God. Are you some kind of Gnostic?

Nope. . .three separate persons in the one God, one Being.
God the Father did not die for our sin.

 

[Daniel Peres]

If you see Jesus, you see the Father. . .one nature (divine), one God. . .does not negate three separate persons in the one God, one Being.

Nope. . .three separate persons in the one God, one Being.
God the Father did not die for our sin.

First, you didn’t even try to respond to the fact that those who have seen the son have seen the father.

Second, I don’t know what you mean by three separate persons, but you do acknowledge that there is only one God, therefore God died for our sin.

 

[Jonaitis]

What is the name of the "Father," "Son" and "Holy Ghost"?

Essence.

 

[Clare73]

First, you didn’t even try to respond to the fact that those who have seen the son have seen the father.

Okay. . .since God is Spirit, the only person you can see is Jesus, because he is material.
That being the case, the only way to "see" the Father is to see Jesus.

Second, I don’t know what you mean by three separate persons, but you do acknowledge that there is only one God, therefore God died for our sin.

The divine nature cannot die, God is immortal.

Jesus had two natures: human nature and divine nature.
Jesus was one person: the son of God.

There are three separate persons--Father, Son, Holy Spirit, in the one God.
The one person of the Son has two natures--divine and human.
The Father and Holy Spirit have only one nature--divine.

When you get your concepts in line with orthodoxy on the the Trinity, get back to me and we can go from there.

 

[Daniel Peres]

Since God is Spirit, the only person you can see is Jesus, because he is material.
That being the case, the only way to "see" the Father is to see Jesus.


God cannot die.

When you get your concepts in line with orthodoxy on the the Trinity, get back to me and we can go from there.

If no one can see God then how did Moses see God?

God cannot die, but his human body can, and did die. Do you agree Jesus is God or not? I really don’t understand where you are coming from or if you are even a Christian?

I’m a member of the Catholic Church. The word Trinity is a term coined by Catholics, and I follow the Catholic use of the word Trinity. I have said nothing unorthodox.

 

[Clare73]

If no one can see God then how did Moses see God?

God takes on a (n apparently) material form sometimes in the OT in order to be "seen."

God cannot die, but his human body can, and did die. Do you agree Jesus is God or not? I really don’t understand where you are coming from or if you are even a Christian?

Catholic orthodoxy on the Trinity is regarded as the Christian orthodoxy on the Trinity, with which you are apparently not completely familiar.

I’m a member of the Catholic Church. The word Trinity is a term coined by Catholics, and I follow the Catholic use of the word Trinity. I have said nothing unorthodox.

Then it seems I am more familiar with Catholic orthodoxy regarding the Trinity than are you.

 

[Daniel Peres]

God takes on a (n apparently) material form sometimes in the OT in order to be "seen."

Catholic orthodoxy on the Trinity is regarded as the Christian orthodoxy on the Trinity, with which you are apparently not completely familiar.

Then it seems I am more familiar with Catholic orthodoxy regarding the Trinity than are you.

Jesus said ,”I am in the Father and the Father is in me.” I agree with that as does the Catholic Church’s catechisms as well as all relevant church documents. You don’t seem to agree, you think they are separate, therefore you are unorthodox. Show me any where in the Catechism that disagrees with my view on the Trinity.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus said ,”I am in the Father and the Father is in me.” I agree with that as does the Catholic Church’s catechisms as well as all relevant church documents. You don’t seem to agree, you think they are separate, therefore you are unorthodox. Show me any where in the Catechism that disagrees with my view on the Trinity.

I don't do Catholic catechism. . .I suspect you may have to go beyond the catechism.

Get someone in the Catholic section of the Forum to help you with that. . .I think fhansen is Catholic.

 

[Daniel Peres]

I don't do Catholic catechism. . .I suspect you may have to go beyond the catechism.

Get someone in the Catholic section of the Forum to help you with that.

Are you crazy? You accuse me of contradicting the Catholic position on the Trinity then you admit you don’t read Catholic documents. That simply makes no sense. Furthermore, I don’t need help from fellow Catholics, I have studied this issue in depth going back to the OT.

All you do is make as hominem attacks without ever responding to arguments presented.

 

[Clare73]

Are you crazy? You accuse me of contradicting the Catholic position on the Trinity then you admit you don’t read Catholic documents. That simply makes no sense. Furthermore, I don’t need help from fellow Catholics, I have studied this issue in depth going back to the OT.

All you do is make as hominem attacks without ever responding to arguments presented.

Nevertheless, you misunderstand Catholic orthodoxy on the Trinity when you say there are not three separate divine persons in the one God.

 

[disciple Clint]

How much time, do you believe, he is called "I AM" in the Bible?

How many times does God have to say it before you believe it?

 

[Daniel Peres]

Nevertheless, you misunderstand Catholic orthodoxy on the Trinity when you say there are not three separate divine persons in the one God.

1) According to paragraph 254 of the Catechism there are three “distinct” persons not “separate.” That’s a big difference!

2) Paragraph 253 states: The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God.”84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.

3) You insist on using the modern, everyday definition of the word “person.” A skilled reader knows he must use the definition of the writer(s) of the relevant document(s). The official language of the Catholic Church is currently Latin. Therefore, the actual word used in the Catechism is “persona” which means face or mask. The lingua Franca used to be Greek, so when the Trinity was first formulated, the word used was “prosopon” which also means face or theatrical mask.

I have presented you with the facts. These are not my opinions. Do with them what you will.

 

[Clare73]

1) According to paragraph 254 of the Catechism there are three “distinct” persons not “separate.” That’s a big difference!

Actually, it's not.

2) Paragraph 253 states: The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire:

If they do not share, but each is his own, then they are separate.

“The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God.”84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.
3) You insist on using the modern, everyday definition of the word “person.” A skilled reader knows he must use the definition of the writer(s) of the relevant document(s). The official language of the Catholic Church is currently Latin. Therefore, the actual word used in the Catechism is “persona” which means face or mask. The lingua Franca used to be Greek, so when the Trinity was first formulated, the word used was “prosopon” which also means face or theatrical mask.

It matters not the literal meaning, it matters only in the language into which it is translated, where "person" is an individual of the human race.
If "face" is the intended meaning in the Greek, then "face" is the word which would have been used in the translation into English.

Check with someone (a priest) who knows your church's theology.

I have presented you with the facts. These are not my opinions. Do with them what you will.

And you misunderstand the fact that "separate" and "distinct" ("do nor share the one divinity, each is whole and entire") are the same thing as used by your church regarding the Trinity.