A question for the non sabatarians(spelling?)

[Mankin]

Hello, I have a question for those who do not hold to the seventh day(or any day for that matter) as the sabbath. Why do you hold your view that it is void? This is not meant to spark debate merely dicussion. I have not received a clear answer as to what theological reason they have not to celebrate it. At times, it seemed like I received circular reasoning.

I didn't start this thread to debate rather to discover what reasons you guys have.

 

[Mankin]

This post would be directed towards formers but any non sabatarians are welcome to comment.

 

[Adventtruth]

Under the new covenant the justified are not commanded to observe it.

AT

 

[Mankin]

Please expand a little.

 

[Adventtruth]

Please expand a little.

Have you ever studied the Covenants?

AT

 

[Mankin]

Somewhat.

 

[ricker]

Hello, I have a question for those who do not hold to the seventh day(or any day for that matter) as the sabbath. Why do you hold your view that it is void? This is not meant to spark debate merely dicussion. I have not received a clear answer as to what theological reason they have not to celebrate it. At times, it seemed like I received circular reasoning.

I didn't start this thread to debate rather to discover what reasons you guys have.

I guess simply put I believe the Sabbath was given as the sign of the covenant God had exclusively with Israel. We are now under the new covenant in which the ceremonies and such of the old covenant are done away with. There is no Sabbath command for Christians.
There are of course multiple Bible verses we could look at if you would like to.
God bless! Ricker

 

[Adventtruth]

Thanks Ricker.

AT

 

[Mankin]

I don't mean to be rude, but I wanted to start an in depth discussion about what reasons you have to not believe in sabbath keeping persay.

Let's start off with an age old question.

Why does it seem that non sabatarians keep the 9 commandments but throw out the 4th? This isn't my question persay but it's a general question that has been asked many times.

 

[Adventtruth]

I don't mean to be rude, but I wanted to start an in depth discussion about what reasons you have to not believe in sabbath keeping persay.

Let's start off with an age old question.

Why does it seem that non sabatarians keep the 9 commandments but throw out the 4th? This isn't my question persay but it's a general question that has been asked many times.

You need to get a firm understanding of the covenants. Under the new covenant believers are called not to follow law but to establish law through faith. How is that done...by following the Spirit who has been given to you through Chirst. Law following only condemns you.


(Rom 5:1) Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Rom 5:2) Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
(Rom 5:3) More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
(Rom 5:4) and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
(Rom 5:5) and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.


(Rom 7:1) Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?
(Rom 7:2) For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
(Rom 7:3) Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
(Rom 7:4) Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.


(Rom 3:31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Establishing law is not the same as following after it to perform it. Establishing it is to treat all with Christian love.


(Rom 13:8) Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
(Rom 13:9) For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

(Rom 13:10) Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.



AT

 

[Pythons]

After Christ's death and subsequent Resurrection Judaism became a "dead" religion.

Prior to the death and resurrection of Christ: "Do whatsoever the Scribes and Pharisees say" .

Vs.

After the death and Resurrection: "All power in heaven and earth has been given to me therefore do whatsoever I say".


The first Christian Council held in Jerusalem was in fact held to settle a serious question that came into the Church that centered around what one needed to do to be saved. What promted this Council, it's findings and ultimate determination can be read in the Book of Acts Chapter 15. Important to note that the determination from this holy Council directly ties the Church on earth to God in the clear statement that it was both the determination of the Holy Spirit and the Apostles not to "bind" anything other then those things mentioned. Binding and Loosing is a Rabinic term that only means "Religious Authority" and in Judaism it equated the determinations of the Religious Authority as the determination of God Himself.

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude and to His disciples, saying the Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do ye not after their works for they say, and do not". Matthew 23, 1

In otherwords, at the time Jesus spoke this, Religious Authority belonged to the Established Religious Authority within Judaism itself and that is why Jesus instructed even His own disciples to follow or observe what they were told to do but added that the Religious Authority were not practicing what they preached which is to say, 'do as they say but not as they actually do".

This above clear instruction of Jesus is contrasted with what He says after victory from the grave itself.

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying all power in heaven and on earth has been given to me, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost". Matthew 28,17

Prior to Jesus death and Resurrection the Scribes and Pharisees were in the seat of Moses (they traced back in time to validate their aurhority) and after this time was over the religion became a corpse which began to undergo putrefaction.

The Sabbath commandment as observed by Judaism suffered corruption and began a process of putrefaction along with all ceremonial laws. A ceremonial law is activated by times or seasons and is only in force for the specific time while a moral law is in force 24 hours a day, seven days a week & 365 days a year. I.E. a savage knows it's wrong to steal by command of moral law while the same savage is not commanded by nature to observe a Sabbath any differently then any other day of the week.

The Catholic Church determined that Sunday would be the day Christians would worship Christ as God long prior to the death of the Apostles. As far as a direct command in the New Testament to observe a Sabbath Saturday or Sunday there isn't one. It is the same Church who commands that worship be performed on Sunday as it was who issued the determination in Acts 15.

Is this what you were looking for?

 

[Mankin]

Acts 15 seems to deal more with the question of circumsicion. And they do not seem to make a decision concerning the Sabbath.

This is again made out of dicussion but what is your postion on Hebrews 4?

 

[Pythons]

The issue isn't about the specifics of the issue but the Biblical method of laying issues to rest. In Acts 15 the specific issue is the law of Moses which includes all ceremonial laws exactly as the text states. It's possible I'm not understanding what you meant to extract out of your question so feel free to ask again.

How is this out of discussion in answer to your post #1?

As for Hebrews 4,

Judaism understands that Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day of the week and did sin prior to the start of the Sabbath = they never entered into that rest. Hebrews speaks to the truth that a believer in Christ is already there;

"Now we who have believed ENTER that rest" V,3)

Remember, the first several times the Sabbath is mentioned it's identified as "Sabbath to the Lord" or "God's rest". Are you suggesting that Hebrews 4 teaches Christians should observe the seventh day Sabbath?

 

[oldsage]

You need to get a firm understanding of the covenants. Under the new covenant believers are called not to follow law but to establish law through faith. How is that done...by following the Spirit who has been given to you through Chirst. Law following only condemns you.
(Rom 3:31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Establishing law is not the same as following after it to perform it. Establishing it is to treat all with Christian love.

I do not believe you are using the word "establish" correctly in this sense. Here is how the NET bible translates Romans 3:31:

NET Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! Instead we uphold the law.

Now the Greek word for "establish" is "ἱστάνομεν" and it basically means to "uphold"

Here is what the BDAG says on it:

4. to validate someth. that is in force or in practice, reinforce validity of, uphold, maintain, validate τὶ someth. fig. ext. of 1 (1 Macc 2:27 τὴν διαθήκη&#957 τὴν παράδοσιν ὑμῶν validate or maintain your own tradition Mk 7:9. νόμον ἱστάνομεν we uphold (the) law Ro 3:31 (s. καταργέω 2).

I would say your idea on what "establish" means in Romans 3:31 is incorrect. The other passages contrasting Faith and Works would be your better argument for your position.

Blessings,
Chris

 

[RND]

Acts 15 seems to deal more with the question of circumsicion. And they do not seem to make a decision concerning the Sabbath.

This is again made out of dicussion but what is your postion on Hebrews 4?

Mankin, Acts 15 does indeed deal with the issue of circumcision, eating foods offered to idols and eating strangled meats. What is interesting about the Councils decision was that they "upheld" the observance of certain Mosaic law found in Leviticus 17 & 18.

Also, the Council did not mention the other laws found in the Ten Commandments. We therefore can legitimately ask if they meant that those laws were done away with. It would be a stretch to say that just because they didn't mention stealing per se that they were condoning stealing. The same logic has to hold true for the sabbath.

Also, being a Christian means that we are actually members of a "spiritual" nation (Ephesians 2:19-22) and "fellow citizens" with the saints. Jesus is the "new Israel" having fulfilled many aspects of prophecy that was originally intended for the Children of Israel. In light of the fact that there is no commandments "not" to keep the sabbath then it is mere presumption for some to insist that it something that the don't have to observe.

Hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts.

 

[Pythons]

RND! I'm very glad to see you! I had thought something bad had happened.

 

[Adventtruth]

I do not believe you are using the word "establish" correctly in this sense. Here is how the NET bible translates Romans 3:31:

NET Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! Instead we uphold the law.

Now the Greek word for "establish" is "ἱστάνομεν" and it basically means to "uphold"

Here is what the BDAG says on it:

4. to validate someth. that is in force or in practice, reinforce validity of, uphold, maintain, validate τὶ someth. fig. ext. of 1 (1 Macc 2:27 τὴν διαθήκη&#957 τὴν παράδοσιν ὑμῶν validate or maintain your own tradition Mk 7:9. νόμον ἱστάνομεν we uphold (the) law Ro 3:31 (s. καταργέω 2).

I would say your idea on what "establish" means in Romans 3:31 is incorrect. The other passages contrasting Faith and Works would be your better argument for your position.

Blessings,
Chris

And how do we establish or uphold law??? By following after it to perform it, to which we then will fail having never ever performed it perfectly as it demains, or by faith alone in Christ who is our righteousness, and by extending grace and being loving people to others?


(Rom 13:8) Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
(Rom 13:9) For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
(Rom 13:10) Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

AT

 

[RND]

RND! I'm very glad to see you! I had thought something bad had happened.

Thanks, everything's good.

 

[Pythons]

Thanks, everything's good.

You gave us all quite a scare. Pm me your email addy and I'll return the favor that way if one of us vanishes from the board we can make sure everything is ok.

 

[VictorC]

The issue isn't about the specifics of the issue but the Biblical method of laying issues to rest. In Acts 15 the specific issue is the law of Moses which includes all ceremonial laws exactly as the text states. It's possible I'm not understanding what you meant to extract out of your question so feel free to ask again.

How is this out of discussion in answer to your post #1?

As for Hebrews 4,

Judaism understands that Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day of the week and did sin prior to the start of the Sabbath = they never entered into that rest. Hebrews speaks to the truth that a believer in Christ is already there;

"Now we who have believed ENTER that rest" V,3)

Remember, the first several times the Sabbath is mentioned it's identified as "Sabbath to the Lord" or "God's rest". Are you suggesting that Hebrews 4 teaches Christians should observe the seventh day Sabbath?

I certainly wouldn't.

The seventh day of creation established the rest that we may enter into, with the sole requirement of belief in His sufficiency and acceptance the rest He provided. That rest was 6000 years ago, and has never ended - it isn't a periodic rest like the shadow of the weekly sabbath ordinance, but is eternal.

Comparison is made with the one time Joshua led Israel into the promised land.
Likewise the entrance into God's rest is a single event, it is sufficient, and it endures. We have nothing to add to it.

The sabbath ordinance is a component of the Mosaic covenant.
Jesus our Redeemer has delivered us from the same law that contains the words "thou shalt not covet" which was that covenant mediated by Moses, the ten commandments (Romans 7:6-7).
There is no sabbath ordinance outside of Moses, and there is no such thing as a sabbath that can be applied to a Christian.

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Victor