a question for the guys

1: When looking at the whole first-world, one in ten babies born to a married woman is a baby fathered by another man due to HER cheating. There is MASSIVE local variation! The local rates run from 1 in 3 to 1 in 35. The average rate is growing and should hit 1 in 9 within the next year or so.

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Yeah, I've heard that statistic too.

Personally, I know my DH, I know that there is a difference with him at least between looking at an attractive woman and staring/lusting after one. If I catch him looking I'll probably jokingly slap his shoulder and we'll both have a good laugh. In truth I was probably looking at her too! If he was staring them I'd let him know I was unimpressed and we'd move on. But I think that the incidence of men 'mentally having sex' with attractive women is probably a lot less than we think...

Tropical Wilds said:

So the guy I came with moved one chair down so my husband could sit next to me (and he could still be with my husband) when he saw a girl who was blonde, obviously Swedish or something (thick accent, small, European dress). Our friends jaw dropped, and he was totally checking her out. He nudged my husband, and he turned to look at her too. Well, I turned to see both our friend and my husband looking in the same direction, and I assumed (having missed the first part of this whole interaction) that they were looking at a girl. So I turned and looked in the direction they were, and said "So who are we checking out?" Our friend instantly yelled quite loudly "NOBODY! NOTHING!" and turned away. He was obviously trying to keep my husband out of what he thought was trouble, but he managed to sound quite paranoid in the process. My husband said "The blonde girl with the funny braids." Our friend's jaw dropped... I looked at him and said "Why do I care if you guys are looking at a girl? I just wanted to see which one." He was floored that I didn't care, and he turns to my husband and says "You bastard, I knew you lucked out by marrying her. You're wife is so *$&#ing cool."

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Wow. I would never let my husband get away with that crap.

Should it even surprise me that a guy in a bar thinks it's "cool" of you to shrug off your husband's marriage vows so he can commit adultery with his eyes?

BrBob said:

Ladies, the best thing you could do when you catch a man's eyes lingering too long is to look away and silently pray for the man. Pray for forgiveness and grace and at the same time, do what neeeds to be done to get out of that situation.

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Ohhhh... I thought the best thing was to cross my eyes and fart loudly. That always seems to work a treat

DamagedNothing said:

lol.. Please. The only difference between looking and staring for a guy is that looking takes less time. What he calls "admiring her beauty" is justified lusting.

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Errr... do you have ANY biblical or psychological reference for this, or is it simply your opinion?

Tropical Wilds said:

What crap? The question was if the guys have ever had their wives think that they were checking out a woman when in actuality they weren't... I gave a case of where I thought my husband was checking out another woman, but he was trying to figure out how she did her hair.

Am I now a sub-par wife with a bad husband not only because I don't punish him for noticing other women, but because I don't publically humiliate him in front of his friends for looking at another woman's hair? Because I don't take it upon myself to treat my husband like a child, making him only do things I "let" him do?

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Hear hear! Tell me... if you honestly thought he WAS imagining having sex with a woman he was staring at... would you have an issue with that? Would you call him on it?

ciaradawn said:

I've been reading a lot of threads lately about "men's wandering eyes"... and I wanted to get some guys' opinions on the matter. (ladies, chime in as well if you like!).

I was always under the impression that it's what is in the man's head that matters; not whether or not he noticed a pretty girl. But I want to hear, what is really going on in your heads? Do women sometimes misinterpret your gazes? Are they really gazes at all? Or are these women right?

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(general statement not directed at any 1 person)

We look for the same reasons women look. There is something to look at.

What is the big deal? I think all of these questions (male and female) just stem from personal insecurites. We get ticked that someone else is hotter they we are. Sorry, this is reality,,, deal!!!!

I also think alot of this complaining comes from lazyness. It is eaiser to blame the guy/girl who looks, then it is to work out, dress nice, and be sexy for your spouse.

Accept your spouses flaws, because both parties are siners. The quicker you accept and move on the quicker you can both be happy. Men and women do not change. The quicker we can concentrate on the 80% that our spouses do well every day, the more insignificant the 20% they do wrong will become.

Looking or staring at the opposite sex in an inappropriate way is not how God wants us to live, No matter whoever says what on here. (IF you are trying to live according to the Bible) "But among you there MUST NOT BE EVEN A HINT of sexual immorality, or any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Ephesians 5:3 ARI

Errr... do you have ANY biblical or psychological reference for this, or is it simply your opinion?

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Both.

2 Samuel 11:2 - One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. She was beautiful.

I think we all know where that led. I form my "opinions" on observable facts and evidence. Every man I've ever met was a horndog at heart and I'll bet my soul every man I meet in the future will be too.

Tropical Wilds said:

Frankly, that's a pretty judgmental stereotype...

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Yeah it is. And it's well earned.
When a man proves me wrong I'll let you know. Meanwhile I'm also willing to bet every man who looks at this thread has also looked at porn more than once in his life. I'm not saying I don't love the guys, I'm just saying it's against their nature to be faithful as part of the fall:

Genesis 3:16 - To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Did you get that last part? A woman's desire is for her husband but he rules over her. She never gets the faithfulness she desires from him because his promiscuous nature rules. Jesus can change that, but the guy has to be willing. I know a lot of guys who are willing this week but won't be next week. I'd like to see what happens when Christ returns and sets things straight. Maybe then we'll have faithful men. (But by then earthly marriages will be obsolete...go figure.)

DamagedNothing said:

Yeah it is. And it's well earned.
When a man proves me wrong I'll let you know. Meanwhile I'm also willing to bet every man who looks at this thread has also looked at porn more than once in his life. I'm not saying I don't love the guys, I'm just saying it's against their nature to be faithful as part of the fall:

Genesis 3:16 - To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Did you get that last part? A woman's desire is for her husband but he rules over her. She never gets the faithfulness she desires from him because his promiscuous nature rules. Jesus can change that, but the guy has to be willing. I know a lot of guys who are willing this week but won't be next week. I'd like to see what happens when Christ returns and sets things straight. Maybe then we'll have faithful men. (But by then earthly marriages will be obsolete...go figure.)

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What you say here is no different from saying 'women are too stupid to engage in politics.' Besides being wrong and sexist it is spitting in the face of Christ!

First off, if we grab the people who are members of this group we'd have about 80,000 men and 84,000 women. Now, out of them we'd have assuming the membership is random, 2,000 men who have cheated at least once AND 2,048 women who have cheated at least TWICE (the stats say men are SLIGHTLY (~2%) more likely to cheat AND women who cheat, cheat with MORE MEN! (The numbers for large groups MUST balance.))

Now what happens to your little bigotry in the face of reality?

Accept Christ and throw away your contempt!

DamagedNothing said:

Yeah it is. And it's well earned.
When a man proves me wrong I'll let you know. Meanwhile I'm also willing to bet every man who looks at this thread has also looked at porn more than once in his life. I'm not saying I don't love the guys, I'm just saying it's against their nature to be faithful as part of the fall:

Genesis 3:16 - To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Did you get that last part? A woman's desire is for her husband but he rules over her. She never gets the faithfulness she desires from him because his promiscuous nature rules. Jesus can change that, but the guy has to be willing. I know a lot of guys who are willing this week but won't be next week. I'd like to see what happens when Christ returns and sets things straight. Maybe then we'll have faithful men. (But by then earthly marriages will be obsolete...go figure.)

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Wow. Thats messed up. You have an actual contempt for men, and behaving like a flat out sexist.

This is a good example of how people can twist scripture to mean what they want it to mean. The woman was tempted, and caused the fall, that is why she got the pain during child birth.

DamagedNothing said:

Both.

2 Samuel 11:2 - One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. She was beautiful.

I think we all know where that led. I form my "opinions" on observable facts and evidence. Every man I've ever met was a horndog at heart and I'll bet my soul every man I meet in the future will be too.

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My husband isnt a horndog...well only for me...

I think you are all missung what is trying to be communicated here. The point isn't that men are worse than women. See, what happened at the fall of man and woman was that the consequences were disunity. Adam and Eve were united against God when they sinned. So, the consequences of their sin was disunity. All of what happened in Genesis 3:16 was about that. Think about the tower of Babel. Those people were united against God, so what did God do? He made them unable to communicate. The good news is that when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, the first thing He did was bring communication back to people of different languages. Unity could now be restored for those who walk in the Spirit, because they are united in Christ, and not against Him. Ok, back to Genesis 3:16. This whole setup did bring about disunity between man and woman. Sex before the fall was a whole person to whole person, becoming one experience. After the fall sex became something people were capable of doing without intimacy. The whole idea of physical stimulation happening between many people, and between people who are stimulated only by sight, is from the fall. This is not how God intended or instilled in humans to be. If you doubt this, just think about it deeply. Why would God make people to be aroused by nearly all of the opposite sex(or same sex, as the case may be) then tell them that if they act on that impulse, it's a sin? That makes no sense at all. So, we must understand that the drive that draws or compells us to admire something or someone who is not our other half, or imprinted and covenanted one, in a sexually stimulating way comes from the sin nature, not from the God given sexuality.
Understanding this, gives us a whole different opinion of what that looking draw is all about. I can't speak for everyone here, but it's not at all about insecurity for me. I don't like it when men eye me up and down, and they do. I don't wear makeup, or dress to attract, but it still happens, and i don't think it's a good thing. I am not judging them, we are all sinners saved only by the grace of God, but neither will I call something that stems from the corruption of something beautiful, good. Where the real difference in opinion about this lies, is in one's beliefs about sex. Since I don't believe that humans were ever meant to experience sex in a biologically isolated way, and since I know something of the sanctity, holiness, and beauty of the sex that God intended, I can not hold a nonchalant view of sexuality in general.

I know you don't think a look can cause unfaithfulness, but "looks" can lead down that path if the person is not careful. First the look, then the attention, then communication, & your on your way.

Once you have been married for awhile & are hit on by married men you start to figuere out how dangerous a "look" can be. No, I'm not saying it will start an affair but it can take you that way, EVEN if you are not looking for it to happen. Ari

Tropical Wilds said:

Except of course we're talking about looking at people who we find attractive, not having sex with them...

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What we are talking about is where that desire to look comes from.

Below is a post that I recently (like today) posted on a similar thread titled Are all men dogs. But I think it appropriate here. Also, I think Romanseight has posted a wise question on where does the sexual desire come from? Again, I think my post below answers some of it, but I'm open to what others have to say.

To answer the question, I think most – but not all – men are dogs. I’m embarrassed on many occasions regarding how men act and on this site on other posts have refered to them as cro-magnum types! I agree with Mbams’ comments that her husband shared – if you love your wife you will turn your eyes away from anything that is revealing – whether is a woman in a low cut shirt in Church bending over to pick up a child, or a movie from the box-office. But I think most boys (young men) are taught the opposite. In fact, I ended up in a good debate with a very good male friend who after getting married still thought it was OK to look at women. However, he admitted that he knew it hurts his wife when he looks. I think with most men there is a natural tendency to look – but in my mind a Christian will resist natural tendencies and can look away. And even when “natural” things happen tot men when they look, they still can control their behaviors – the mind is the most powerful sexual organ in the human body. To me, one of the most important components of the Savior’s teachings is to put off natural tendencies – just because something is natural does not men God approves of it.

I think most people would agree that men are more visual than women. Although I think some of this stems from biology, Nancy Ectoff (psychologist) in her book “Survival of the Prettiest” makes a good case that the visualism of men has a learned component. She explains that part of the reason breast size is important to men is because society has made it this way because images of breasts are everywhere in society. Because there is much less focus in society about penis size (and it impossible for women to gauge erect size when dating – assuming its Christian dating with no sex until marriage) women become commit to a man’s personality (and the personality is gazed on, not knowing usually the size of his private area). To men, breast size is a factor among many factors when first dating someone due to what they are taught in society. To women, it just isn’t part of the social fabric that socializes people toward certain characteristics. Likewise, the historian Dr. Nancy Yalow’s book “The History of the Breast” also underscores how different cultures prefer different sizes – with the Victorian era thinking smaller (in both men and women) were much better – it’s a learned behavior.

However, I want to respectfully disagree with Tropic Wilds about the importances of women (and men) to dress modestly. Ectoff also underscores that less modest dress does influence society and does influence men to be – in the words of the OP – dog-like. Like others, I think it’s a two way street – both men and women need to dress modestly (I think all men should wear shirts in society) and both genders need to look away at sexual body parts – even in movies!

Like someone else said...the reason we look is because there's something to look at.

Men are far more visual. Just because they have a penis doesn't make it ok to stare, but that is NOT my argument. In fact, I don't have any argument. I am not insecure, and though my man looks sometimes, and even once in a while slips up on porn, I am not mad at him, I don't yell, scream, put orders on him, anything like that. It's not going to change a thing.

Men are more visual, they're going to look. And sometimes, like with the braids, they'll notice things that are "interesting" to them and they won't even notice the body.

IMHO, women need to ligthen up and become more secure about themselves and their relationships and trust their men...and men should make sure their thoughts are in the right place.

GWB404 said:

Like someone else said...the reason we look is because there's something to look at.

Men are far more visual. Just because they have a penis doesn't make it ok to stare, but that is NOT my argument. In fact, I don't have any argument. I am not insecure, and though my man looks sometimes, and even once in a while slips up on porn, I am not mad at him, I don't yell, scream, put orders on him, anything like that. It's not going to change a thing.

Men are more visual, they're going to look. And sometimes, like with the braids, they'll notice things that are "interesting" to them and they won't even notice the body.

IMHO, women need to ligthen up and become more secure about themselves and their relationships and trust their men...and men should make sure their thoughts are in the right place.

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Well said from GW here.

GWB404 said:

Like someone else said...the reason we look is because there's something to look at.

Men are far more visual. Just because they have a penis doesn't make it ok to stare, but that is NOT my argument. In fact, I don't have any argument. I am not insecure, and though my man looks sometimes, and even once in a while slips up on porn, I am not mad at him, I don't yell, scream, put orders on him, anything like that. It's not going to change a thing.

Men are more visual, they're going to look. And sometimes, like with the braids, they'll notice things that are "interesting" to them and they won't even notice the body.

IMHO, women need to ligthen up and become more secure about themselves and their relationships and trust their men...and men should make sure their thoughts are in the right place.

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No one said anything about getting mad or yelling. Also if you read my post you would see that this has nothing at all to do with insecurity. I want to address this issue of visual. What does being visual have to do with having a free pass to be sexual with that visual nature? I am extremely auditory, to the extent that I hear colors. I appreciate the beauty of a beautiful voice, however I can hear a man or a woman sing, and not be sexually stimulated by either one. Whatever perpensity one has to learn in a certain way, or to appreciate in a certain way has no bearing on whether or not something is sinful. Tropical Wilds, I am not the one who said what one does in his or her heart is what matters in regards to sin. Jesus said it. So I guess you will have to take that one up with Him. Where are minds and hearts go matters deeply, and where our hearts and minds go will hurt us, and those we love. Even if you don't tell anyone, sin always hurts others. Where the desire to look comes from matters very much, because you are justifying something based on it not being sinful. But the fact of the matter is, if one is simply walking as close to the line as he or she can, The very fact that they want to walk that close to the line reveals the sinful heart. We tend to justify the sins that we ourselves partake in. You won't find me chastising you, that is between you and God. You won't find me justifying sin though.

Romanseight2005 said:

Sex before the fall was a whole person to whole person, becoming one experience. After the fall sex became something people were capable of doing without intimacy. The whole idea of physical stimulation happening between many people, and between people who are stimulated only by sight, is from the fall. This is not how God intended or instilled in humans to be. If you doubt this, just think about it deeply. Why would God make people to be aroused by nearly all of the opposite sex(or same sex, as the case may be) then tell them that if they act on that impulse, it's a sin? That makes no sense at all.

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Whoaaaaaa, let's stop and think about this. Not understanding why God would do something does NOT mean that God would not do it, or that something is therefore part of 'fallen nature' or wrong.

Do some men really struggle with lusting over (nearly) every woman they see? Indubitably. Do some women struggle with exactly the same thing? Of course.

Does that mean that anyone who looks at another person is thinking about them sexually, or is opening themselves up to temptation? NO. Some people simply don't view other people as sexual objects created for their dreaming pleasure. And if they don't, lusting over strangers won't be an issue.

I really think that this issue is similar to the use of alcohol. Can some people get addicted and fall into sin via alcohol? Yes, of course. Does that mean drinking alcohol is inherently wrong? No.

I look at people all the time. Male and female. I'll often point people out to hubby. I know how he's wired - I know this doesn't cause temptation for him. He knows how I'm wired - and he knows that he doesn't need to worry about me lusting after random men (or women). It's not a temptation issue for either of us. On the other hand, keep alcohol well away from me!

I didn't say that one could not see people. I in fact made that point very clearly awhile back. I am speaking specifically to the idea of looking with the intent of appreciating the sexual value or aspects of a person. Also, I could go much further in biblical study to prove my point. God did not make us to be sexual in a purely physical way. This was part of the fall. Our physiology was literally changed at that time.