a question for the guys

[ciaradawn]

I've been reading a lot of threads lately about "men's wandering eyes"... and I wanted to get some guys' opinions on the matter. (ladies, chime in as well if you like!).

I was always under the impression that it's what is in the man's head that matters; not whether or not he noticed a pretty girl. But I want to hear, what is really going on in your heads? Do women sometimes misinterpret your gazes? Are they really gazes at all? Or are these women right?

 

[DamagedNothing]

...We're right.

 

[jwwells]

I've been reading a lot of threads lately about "men's wandering eyes"... and I wanted to get some guys' opinions on the matter. (ladies, chime in as well if you like!).

I was always under the impression that it's what is in the man's head that matters; not whether or not he noticed a pretty girl. But I want to hear, what is really going on in your heads? Do women sometimes misinterpret your gazes? Are they really gazes at all? Or are these women right?

Well! Big 'our culture' problem and probably NOT the problem you think it is.

A) All people look at other people. You can't help it, it is part of the mammal section of your brain.

B) Many of our women (and I could argue several reasons why ... no one knows) hold our men to an unrealistic and unmeetable standard of behavior in this matter. There is no way the guys could, even in theory, meet the standard of behavior being demanded of us by some women.

C) Staring is a lot more than looking and it is a problem. Why some people --NOT ONLY MALE PEOPLE!-- stare is a thing we do not understand.

D) Some people dress to be stared at AND get insulted when they are stared at.

E) Our men, for reasons unknown, do not complain about their womenfolk staring at guys.

F) Women stare more during ovulation and the days leading up to ovulation.

G) Men stare more when they are young.

So? What does it mean?

I don't know, or at least, I don't know much of it.

We cannot get away from the very real problem that some of our women are demanding a standard of behavior which cannot be met and applying that standard in a very sexist way to the men and not the women. Why? I don't know ... I can guess.

My guess is:

- it is a side effect of the efforts we've made over the last forty years to improve the legal rights of women AND
- of our refusal to fight sexism dumped onto males AND
- men's habit of not complaining about women who stare.

These things are quite true and thus MAY be the reason we have a problem in this area of society.

So, for men who do stare, it is a combination of hormones, bad behavior, bad habits and not thinking the thing through. This should, reasonably, be exactly the same as the women who stare. Sadly, due to our severe sexism against men problem, it is not seen as the same.

 

[hisbloodformysins]

coming from my irrational female perspective...

I'll sum up the answers you'll get right here...'


"they can't help it"
"it's natural and there is nothing wrong with it"
"they are appreciating a work of art"

You are not going to get a guy or even a lot of females to say that there is anything wrong with it, and therefore they will be in agreement with you about it.

HB

 

[BrBob]

A look is a look. It's not a man wanting to have sex with the woman, he's just looking. Now, if a man looks and has thoughts about sexual relations with the woman, he's gone too far.

Is it natural? Sure, both situation above are natural. As Christians though, we are held to a higher standard. We are to take our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ. It's a better way. Nearly all men sin though in this way at some time in their lives. For some it's a besetting sin and for others it's fairly easy to keep their eyes from causing that type of sin. Most of us though, fall in the middle somewhere.

Do keep in mind that as Christian men we do not want to sin and therefore we beat ourselves up about it already so there is really no reason for women to chastize us. Actually, that makes a relationship worse....

Now, non-Christian men cannot be held to a moral standard that they know nothing about and don't ascribe to. That's where the responsibility of the women comes in. It is better to dress carefully so as not to unduly cause men to lust. The thing is though, that you can only do what you can do.

Ladies, the best thing you could do when you catch a man's eyes lingering too long is to look away and silently pray for the man. Pray for forgiveness and grace and at the same time, do what neeeds to be done to get out of that situation.

God Bless
Bob
Spearfish, SD

 

[jacquidube]

My husband was with his friend once talking to another woman and the friend said to my husband "man the way you were looking at her, you might as well of been undressing her"

How would the other guy of known this?

My husband won't admit it but he does do that. He stares or looks at one particular place on a woman and its usually her breasts or mainly her backside. He looks for a while too, so Im assuming thoughts have taken over and he is undressing her and actually seeing her flesh.

I hate being out with him because you can guarantee he's going to be looking. Has he no respect or is it just him. I do not for once believe all men do this.

I look at pretty men but I don't undress them. I look because I think them attractive. I dn't wish to know whats underneath unless it can't be helped because some men wear their trousers tooooo tight.

 

[blueguy]

From my perspective, when I catch myself looking at a woman, I am judging her beauty inside and out, the way she holds herself, her physical beauty etc.
However, my wife is a very attractive blonde, and whenever out and about, I do see guys giving her the long look, or undressing her with they're eyes, that sort of thing. Doesn't offend me or anything, but generally, most guys look all the time, sometimes harmless, sometimes lustfull....... Hey girls look also, just more discreetly

 

[BigNorsk]

I've been reading a lot of threads lately about "men's wandering eyes"... and I wanted to get some guys' opinions on the matter. (ladies, chime in as well if you like!).

I was always under the impression that it's what is in the man's head that matters; not whether or not he noticed a pretty girl. But I want to hear, what is really going on in your heads? Do women sometimes misinterpret your gazes? Are they really gazes at all? Or are these women right?

I don't believe there is a single answer. What goes on in one's mind is an individual thing.

And sure looking, even not looking is misinterpreted. I've had it happen for instance that when thinking of something, I can be far gone, not even aware of what is in front of my eyes, and come out of my thought trip and find some woman thinking I am staring at her, while truth was, I wasn't even aware that she was there.

Culturally too, the normal thing for me to do when talking to someone is to generally look down. Women tend to think this means you are checking them out. When that isn't the case.

Many women would probably be surprised to find that they think they are dressing hot and I think they are unattractive, many to the point of being repulsive. I don't drive around big cities to feast my eyes on streetwalkers and they aren't any more attractive just because it's a shopping center or restaurant. For some reason a lot of women seem to think that people must find it attractive if they have their thong pulled way up their butt crack and pulled up to the middle of their back and some sort of top that looks like it got caught and ripped in the dryer. What's up with that anyway? I see maybe 25% of women dress really attractively but it isn't the 25% that really thinks they are attractive.

If my eyes follow the woman who dishonors herself, it's not because I'm feasting my eyes in lust. It's more like the car that's been in so many wrecks no two doors are the same color. It's amazing, but not really attractive, more almost a side show type of interest.

I'm sure that there are guys who find different things attractive than I do. Like I said at the start, it's an individual thing.

Marv

 

[OnTheWay]

Here's what it comes down to IMHO, a lot of women have grown up with these "romantic movie/romantic comedy" views of relationships and really expect life to be like that. In this case having a man that is just so into them he is incapable of even noticing another attractive women. Well that and women tend to be jealous of each other, often with no reason. Oh the office stories I could tell. It's the same reason you've got a generation of women in the mid to late 30's that have never been married. They're holding out for this fanatsy and are utterly convinced they "deserve" it regardless of whatever their problems are.
Yeah, if a guy eye humps every girl you run across in a day that's a problem. Otherwise, get over the insecurity. You'll be glad you did, your husband will be glad you did, and the forum will be glad as well.

 

[jwwells]

coming from my irrational female perspective...

I'll sum up the answers you'll get right here...'


"they can't help it"
"it's natural and there is nothing wrong with it"
"they are appreciating a work of art"

You are not going to get a guy or even a lot of females to say that there is anything wrong with it, and therefore they will be in agreement with you about it.

HB

There's NOTHING irrational about females!

(Or males for that matter.)
​

We have a misandry problem in our culture: We used to have a misogyny problem in our culture. We switched one sexism for the other and THAT needs to be fixed. Simple really. This is not rocket science!

You are also confusing LOOKING with STARING. The two are different behaviors and have different roots. You are also assigning one standard of behavior to males and another lesser-standard to females. That is sexist.

• Looking is mammalian-biological in root and cannot be changed.
• Staring is cultural-behavioral in root and can be changed.

Billy Graham said it this way (paraphrasing from memory): "If I am driving down the road and see a naked Playboy model on a billboard and say to myself "OH! Very pretty" there is no sin. The sin is stopping, backing up and having a good gawk."

 

[ciaradawn]

- men's habit of not complaining about women who stare.

Do you think that a reason men don't complain is b/c they don't see it as a big deal? Are women maybe more natuarally 'jealous' than men in this regard and maybe men don't see it as a threat?

(I don't have time to read all the responses yet... I only got to the first one I will be back!)

 

[Ari5]

So men - When you do stare & give the "look" , are you saying that most of the time it really doesn't mean anything?? Or that you are just playing around & it is not serious?

Just trying to get the thoughts right in my head - the guy at work that was staring at me ended up popping up at my car & trying to intiate something!! I have the "stare" happen quite often & I don't dress inappropraitely or anything. So it is hard for me to know when a guy is just being a nice person & when they are looking for something. I have had married men approach me which I think is so sad & I'm just wondering is this normal of guys, would they really take it further from just a stare or are they just seeing what will happen? I think the guys that do give the "stare" make it hard for christian women also!!

This is a great topic!! Ari

 

[Romanseight2005]

Here's what it comes down to IMHO, a lot of women have grown up with these "romantic movie/romantic comedy" views of relationships and really expect life to be like that. In this case having a man that is just so into them he is incapable of even noticing another attractive women. Well that and women tend to be jealous of each other, often with no reason. Oh the office stories I could tell. It's the same reason you've got a generation of women in the mid to late 30's that have never been married. They're holding out for this fanatsy and are utterly convinced they "deserve" it regardless of whatever their problems are.
Yeah, if a guy eye humps every girl you run across in a day that's a problem. Otherwise, get over the insecurity. You'll be glad you did, your husband will be glad you did, and the forum will be glad as well.

Your compassion astounds me!

 

[jwwells]

ciaradawn: You ask why the men don't complain anywhere near as often as the women. I do NOT know an answer. I can make a few guesses.

Staring is a forerunner to cheating, at least in most people's minds and thus must be seen partially in the same light; there is of course the jealousy problem woven throughout the fabric as well:

A) It might be that men's habit of compartmentalization allows men to be more secure. There is some science for this, at least a little bit.

B) We know we have a HUGE misandry problem and that effects how all of our women think of our men. Since women almost never see good healthy descriptions of men, it would make sense that our women think men are nasty beasts at least at some deep level.

C) I don't think there is a biological difference in jealousy rates. There are differences based on culture and law though and these do effect how the two sexes see each other. A woman's cheating is legally threatening to a man, there is no legal threats to a woman when her man cheats: This HUGE, massive, legal threat difference clearly effects how the two sexes see cheating and jealousy.

D) There's also the very real problem that a cheated upon woman has the socially/culturally supported 'right' to be violent to him and to destroy his stuff; no male has this 'right.' This too effects how the two sexes see cheating and clearly supports a woman's 'right' to blow a gasket while negating any right to be angry in the male.

E) I think the size and scope of the anti-male problems we have force men to accept staring as a way of stopping her from actually cheating which, as I said, is seriously threatening to him. Mind you! That same anti-male garbage is a minor but always present threat to female life as some cheated upon men will kill and they kill BECAUSE of the size of the anti-male garbage. There is no way around that, except to remove the sexism and change the laws.

F) Then there's the views of jealousy and its relative anger. An angry male (or jealous) is openly treated as a threat without regard for the reasons, an angry (or jealous) female is not seen as a threat. Thus, it is MUCH easier in our culture for a female to BE JEALOUS!



Tropical wilds: YES! That will be a part of the thing! Only a part, but a part for sure.

 

[Romanseight2005]

There's NOTHING irrational about females!

(Or males for that matter.)
​

We have a misandry problem in our culture: We used to have a misogyny problem in our culture. We switched one sexism for the other and THAT needs to be fixed. Simple really. This is not rocket science!

You are also confusing LOOKING with STARING. The two are different behaviors and have different roots. You are also assigning one standard of behavior to males and another lesser-standard to females. That is sexist.

• Looking is mammalian-biological in root and cannot be changed.
• Staring is cultural-behavioral in root and can be changed.

Billy Graham said it this way (paraphrasing from memory): "If I am driving down the road and see a naked Playboy model on a billboard and say to myself "OH! Very pretty" there is no sin. The sin is stopping, backing up and having a good gawk."

Whether or not it's a sin has nothing to do with looking verses staring, but instead what is in the heart when it is done. What if he was staring because he recognized her and was praying for her family. On the other hand a short look if done for the purpose of sexual draw or chemical pop indulgance is none the less sexual in nature, and drawing a line is quite subjective. See, if the thing that propels you to look is a sexual draw, then isn't that the exact same thing that propels you to lust? The only difference then is that one is further down the path in acting out the sin. My point is this. If we are focused on trying to go as far as we can without sinning, then we already have a sinful heart, and we are trying to get away with something. This is actually legalism. It says I will get as close to the line as I can without going over it. When one thinks this way, he is trying to not sin in his own power, and he will inevitably mess up. On the other hand, grace says, focus on Christ and His strength keeps you pure and it's really pure because it's not trying to react to a sinful desire in a pure way. Does this make sense? One more thing, as far as too high of standards being placed upon people, I will say this. It's not people who placed those standards there, it is God who placed them. Furthermore, we can not measure up, but we CAN do all things through Christ. With God all things are possible.

 

[Romanseight2005]

ciaradawn: You ask why the men don't complain anywhere near as often as the women. I do NOT know an answer. I can make a few guesses.

Staring is a forerunner to cheating, at least in most people's minds and thus must be seen partially in the same light; there is of course the jealousy problem woven throughout the fabric as well:

A) It might be that men's habit of compartmentalization allows men to be more secure. There is some science for this, at least a little bit.

B) We know we have a HUGE misandry problem and that effects how all of our women think of our men. Since women almost never see good healthy descriptions of men, it would make sense that our women think men are nasty beasts at least at some deep level.

C) I don't think there is a biological difference in jealousy rates. There are differences based on culture and law though and these do effect how the two sexes see each other. A woman's cheating is legally threatening to a man, there is no legal threats to a woman when her man cheats: This HUGE, massive, legal threat difference clearly effects how the two sexes see cheating and jealousy.

D) There's also the very real problem that a cheated upon woman has the socially/culturally supported 'right' to be violent to him and to destroy his stuff; no male has this 'right.' This too effects how the two sexes see cheating and clearly supports a woman's 'right' to blow a gasket while negating any right to be angry in the male.

E) I think the size and scope of the anti-male problems we have force men to accept staring as a way of stopping her from actually cheating which, as I said, is seriously threatening to him. Mind you! That same anti-male garbage is a minor but always present threat to female life as some cheated upon men will kill and they kill BECAUSE of the size of the anti-male garbage. There is no way around that, except to remove the sexism and change the laws.

F) Then there's the views of jealousy and its relative anger. An angry male (or jealous) is openly treated as a threat without regard for the reasons, an angry (or jealous) female is not seen as a threat. Thus, it is MUCH easier in our culture for a female to BE JEALOUS!



Tropical wilds: YES! That will be a part of the thing! Only a part, but a part for sure.

No one has a right to sin because of what someone else has or hasn't done. God holds each of us accountable for our own actions.
Also, I didn't get what you were saying about the legal right thing. What do you mean about legal threats to a man verses a woman? A man cheating on a woman is just as devastating to her, as it would be to him.

 

[ciaradawn]

These are really interesting responses. I liked your comments Romanseight & agree.

I agree that there is a difference between staring and looking (& that what is important is what is in your heart and your head)...

For you guys, do your SO's sometimes think you're staring at a girl when you're really not? (be honest ). Do you think that maybe us girls think something is going on that really isn't? & how much of it has to do with insecurities? And are the insecurities ours alone or is it because our men have given us reason to doubt?

 

[DamagedNothing]

lol.. Please. The only difference between looking and staring for a guy is that looking takes less time. What he calls "admiring her beauty" is justified lusting.

There's a very good reason why women (and some men) get jealous easily. It's because we were made to live in a perfect world where the husband and wife belong ONLY to each other and to God. Instead we live in a world where the husband and the wife belong a little bit to each other, a little bit to the college fling and the highschool sweetheart, a little bit to the mailman, and a little bit to the porn mags down at the local smut store. Our [sinful] nature goes against our God-given purpose. That always causes hurt.

 

[Romanseight2005]

lol.. Please. The only difference between looking and staring for a guy is that looking takes less time. What he calls "admiring her beauty" is justified lusting.

There's a very good reason why women (and some men) get jealous easily. It's because we were made to live in a perfect world where the husband and wife belong ONLY to each other and to God. Instead we live in a world where the husband and the wife belong a little bit to each other, a little bit to the college fling and the highschool sweetheart, a little bit to the mailman, and a little bit to the porn mags down at the local smut store. Our [sinful] nature goes against our God-given purpose. That always causes hurt.

I think you have it! Although, there are times when looking may well be for completely non sexual reasons. I mean completely nonsexual reasons. I don't really buy the admiring beauty thing either because I have yet to hear a man honestly say that admiring beauty has no sexual draw to it at all. In fact it is really the same draw that pulls them to lust. Most if they are honest will say that there is a fine line between admiring and lusting. That means they both stem from the same desire in the heart. One is just further down the road of sexual imagery or fantasy than the other. The whole thing is about trying to walk as close to the line as possible without crossing over it. I think if you want to approach the line at all, then the desire to cross it is really there, and that is where the true issuse lies. The truth is though, that while this may be natural to the flesh, it doesn't have to be the reality in everyday christian life for a man or a woman. I do think that past sins, or generational sins can make it more difficult for some than others, and some even have chemically changed brains due to past porn use, etc. These things should give us some compassion for those who know it's wrong and really want to stop. However, for those who want to justify the attraction, they need to take a hard look at examining the scriptures on this, and take it to prayer.That attraction stems from a desire to have sex with someone besides one's spouse. This is a sinful desire, just admit that. Once that step is taken, forgiveness can be received. It can't be received though, if the admission of a truthful look at it never comes. Sexual attraction was never meant to exist in a nondiscriminatory way. It wasn't meant to ever be purely physiological. It was meant to be a whole person to whole person covenant. It really concerns me that so many christians have bought into the lie that God designed people, particularly men to have a desire for nearly everyone of the opposite sex. Think about it. Why would God make a person want everyone they see, then tell it's a sin to have sex outside of marriage? He didn't! He made man and woman to have sexual desire only for eachother, and after marriage. Sex is the one aspect of marriage that is only to happen within the marriage. Love is not limited to marriage, but sex is. Why then do we accept so easily that God made us to have a sexual draw to almost every stranger we see? He didn't.

 

[jwwells]

Romanseight2005: A husband is the father of any baby born to his wife without regard to who the biological father is (1). Women have no responsibility under law to support a baby born to another woman. The difference is big. It goes further than that. A male has a duty to support his wife without regard to how bad her behavior is. A woman does not carry that duty (it is slowly starting to change) even though in theory the law allows for her to carry the duty.

Then there's the problem of violence: We saw it in nasty form in Philadelphia three years ago. A woman thought her husband was cheating (he was going to night school). She pulled his testicles and penis off, nearly killing him. It is hard (sadly) to find an American woman who doesn't laugh at this story (at least to minimal extent). The Philadelphia newspapers openly laughed at it: A woman's violence towards her husband is ALWAYS portrayed as either funny, his fault and/or extremely minor: This is now universal throughout the English speaking world.

This effects how laws on family violence are enforced in massive and dangerous ways. Our society openly kills men and children due DIRECTLY to this behavior-belief-attitude-sin in our women. And this behavior is tied directly to cheating and jealousy. It too is a part of the thing.

Also, one CANNOT say the emotional consequences of cheating are the same for the two sexes. They are not. They are not for cultural/societal reasons, true, but no one can say the emotional consequences are the same! There is simply too much difference in law and application of law for that to be true. All studies of cheating and jealousy make the same point, male detestation is so high that it is in a separate category from female anger.

Also, one cannot get away from the very real fact that some women place an unreasonable standard of behavior on their menfolk. We can talk of WHY that is! We cannot get away from the fact. Just look at so many of the women's responses to this thread! They are sexist! No one can get around that with a few words of women's wants are paramount over men's lives. Sorry, neither Christ nor society work that way.




-----------------
1: When looking at the whole first-world, one in ten babies born to a married woman is a baby fathered by another man due to HER cheating. There is MASSIVE local variation! The local rates run from 1 in 3 to 1 in 35. The average rate is growing and should hit 1 in 9 within the next year or so.