A question for the Arminian

[costlygrace]

Well said, Ben!

 

[Qoheleth]

Well said, Ben!

Amen. By Gods grace and blessings, the way the truth and the light shines forth

 

[Reformationist]

My belief receives His power.

Great Ben. But the question you should ask yourself is why do you believe the message of the Cross when so many others, who hear the same message, remain obstinate. What makes you different? Why are you open to the Gospel and accept it as true when so many others continue to see it as foolishness?

It exists whether I receive it or not.

I agree. However, that's not what you said. You said, "It is belief that causes it [the message of the Cross] to cease being foolish and commence being power." So, why is the message able to exert any influence over you? According to you, you must first believe or the power of the message, though you acknowledge it exists, is impotent against your unbelief. So, how does one get from being a non-believer to a believer that the message of the Cross has any power? You see Ben, unless and until a believer acknowledges that the very reason they believe is because God is able to, and does, change their disposition they will continue to believe that their faith is something that they produced on their own, as you seem to believe. Don't you ever stop to ask yourself why you have faith when so many others clearly don't? There are only two places that faith could have come from. Either it was something that was always part of your nature, or, it was an addition to your nature from a foreign source. If you claim that it was always part of you then you boast in your own virtue and make faith a meritorious work that obligates God to save you because you made the right decision. If, however, you acknowledge that faith itself is a gracious gift from God that He gives to those He has ordained unto eternal life then you can rightly say that you are saved by the grace and mercy of God and that your response to His monergistic work in you results in your maturation and sanctification.

"God is pleased THROUGH the foolishness of the message to save those whom He has chosen."

Is that what it says, Reformationist? Is the theme of the Scripture "whom God has chosen", or "who believe"? It seems the same to you because you are rigid on, 'can't believe until chosen".

In the scheme of God's eternal plan they are one and the same. It is not God's sovereign choice of some unto salvation that causes them to believe. It is His loving and merciful work of regeneration. We can distinguish between God's sovereign election and His work of regeneration but we can not separate them. Additionally, "...until chosen" is a bit misleading. God chose His elect before His elect existed.

What if we could?

If we could believe before we were reborn then what would be the point, and necessity, of God rebirthing us? Ben, I'm not trying to be dense here. If your view is correct then what's the meaning of all the passages that say that the carnal mind views God as an enemy? What's with the passages that say the carnal mind is unable to submit to God? What's with all the passages that tell us that no one is able to come to God unless God first compels them? According to you, man must first believe and then God rebirths them.

Belief is not regeneration.

I know that. Belief is the result of regeneration.

Belief is "lost fallen sinful unforgiven man, convicted by the message; he llifts his hands from the rotten mire, and Jesus takes his hands and lifts him, washes him clean with His blood; the Spirit takes his believing heart and regenerates it."

Lost, fallen, sinful, unforgiven man is convicted in his heart, lifts his hand from the rotten mire, and Jesus regenerates his "believing heart" and regenerates it? This is senseless on so many different levels. First off, what was it that caused this lost, fallen, sinful, unforgiven man to be convicted and believe? We all know that some embrace the message and some reject it. The question is, why do those that embrace it, actually embrace it? Why do they believe the message? What causes it to stop being foolishness and start being power, as you contend? According to you it was their belief? But why did they believe? Why was the message able to convict them when that same message is impotent against the unbelief of so many others?

An unbelieving heart cannot receive the Spirit, therefore cannot receive His regeneration.

Again, if the heart can believe before being regenerated, what does it need to be regenerated for? Also, to what is it regenerated? What does regeneration add to the nature of a man that was not already there?

Titus 3:5 says "regeneration is through the POURED Spirit".

Okay. Let's post what it actually says to avoid confusion:

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

Here we plainly see that salvation is solely according to the mercy of God. It is not because of our works of righteousness. If you make faith in Christ, i.e., belief, a prerequisite for regeneration then regeneration is deserved, i.e., justice. If, however, man is incapable of faith prior to regeneration then it can only be the product of God's mercy.

Titus 3:6 says "the Spirit is through the SAVIOR Jesus".

Titus 3:6
whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior

Regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit via indwelling is the product of God's pleasure in Christ. It wasn't because you believed first.

Problem is that Jesus is only the Savior to those who BELIEVE.

You do remember that I'm a reformed Christian, right Ben? I have no qualms acknowledging the limited intent of Christ's sacrifice. Unlike you, I know that faith is the result of God's effective work in the heart of fallen man. God is the Author and the Finisher of our faith. The Bible tells us clearly that God will complete the good work He started in us. If you already had faith, prior to regeneration, then He didn't start it. You did.

It says "don't FALL by becoming disobedient". It says "don't BECOME hardened". If it was speaking of NEVER-SAVED-always-hardened-lurking-AMONG-the-believers, it wouldn't say "don't YOU BECOME hardened AND FALL.

Again, I never said that believers cannot become hardened, so what's your point? I'm not sure what verses you're referring to so I can't tell you whether I think it was referring to the unregenerate or actual believers. My point was simply that a "fall" or "hardening" with regard to true believers is never full or final.

What unsaves people, is unbelief.

Let me get this straight. After countless discussions with you on the source of faith, your position being that faith is not something foreign to us, you claim that we generate our own faith and become saved because we put that faith in God. The flip side of that is that a person who generates faith from the wellspring of himself can, at a later date, fall into unbelief and be "unsaved?"

Throughout Scripture the theme is "follow God and be righteous, or abandon God and be unrighteous".

What??! We're not righteous because we follow God? All our righteousness is as filthy rags before God. Do you think your works so meritorious that God is obliged to consider you righteous for our own sake? For God's sake man, what did you need Jesus for? According to you, you create your own faith, you are saved because we place that faith in Him and you're considered righteous because you follow God. It sounds to me as if you were already worthy of salvation.

Ever read Ezekiel 18?

Of course.

If a righteous man CAN begin doing unrighteous things, what made him righteous in the first place?

There is none righteous, no not one (Rom 3:10). You begin with a false premise and ask me to answer based on that faulty premise. The only righteous man to ever live is Jesus. We who are reckoned righteous are righteous for Christ's sake, not our own.

COULD he have BEEN apart from God? No. Man cannot be righteous of himself. As John says (1:3:7-10), "Do not be deceived, little children, he who practices righteousness IS righteous EVEN AS HE is righteous. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are exposed."

Okay. Yet you contend that belief must proceed the indwelling of the Spirit. Is believing in God not righteous? If, as you contend, and I agree, man cannot be righteous of himself how, pray tell, do you purport that he overcomes this inherent proclivity to unrighteousness and starts believing?

Grace He freeliy gives. Faith is my RESPONSE TO His grace.

Here's where the rubber meets the road Ben. Here's where we separate the Pelagian from the Augustinian, the Arminian from the Calvinist, the anthropocentric Christian from the theocentric Christian.

In light of your claim that "faith is your response to His grace" I would love to know if God gives this same grace, that in you produced faith, to all people?

Show me where "unregenerate man cannot (EVER) beleive and receive Jesus and the Spirit's regeneration".

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

So long as a person remains in their unregenerate (carnal) state they are incapable of submitting to God.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

"Can" is not indicative of permission. It indicates ability. Jesus clearly states that man has a natural inability to "come to Christ." To "come to Christ" is to have faith in Him.

And my personal favorite and, unfortunately, one of the most misunderstood passages in the Bible:

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

To "see" the Kingdom of God is to "perceive" or "turn one's attention to." The ironic thing is that we are told, plainly, that unless one is born again one cannot even perceive or turn their attention to the Kingdom of God, much less embrace it in faith, yet so many people claim that this is some kind of reference to something we do, like baptism.

Talking with you is never a waste of time, Reformationist. You have a kind and loving heart that seeks after God. I do too. If I can use maturing in my understanding, that is also a goal of mine --- I pray that I am open to it. I pray that you are open also.

Well, thank you for your charitable approach to my not so charitable post. I just pray that you mean what you said.

God bless

 

[JohnJones]

Colossians, since you refuse to actually read the verse being discussed and acknowledge that he says "so is every one that is born of the Spirit" and NOT "so is the process by which men are born of the Spirit," I will not answer your strawman-smokeblowing questions.

 

[Colossians]

John J,

Your default, and tacit admission of defeat, is noted.

 

[Ben johnson]

As the world is watching, let's always show love and respect for each other; everyone has the "right to be wrong", and there is only one Savior --- none of us.

Whether or not anyone here is RIGHT, the most important thing we should demonstrate, is "Jesus in us". The world should see us, and should see Him IN us; that they want what we have.

(I gotta s'picion everyone will agree....)

 

[Colossians]

How He is seen, is His call, not ours.
At least not unless you're an Arminian.

 

[Qoheleth]

We are to let the Light shine forth...peace brothers and sisters

 

[Ben johnson]

How He is seen, is His call, not ours.
At least not unless you're an Arminian.

Perhaps. but how WE are seen, we decide.

"If I have not love, I am a noisy gong and clanging cymbal; if I have not love it profits me nothing..." Hmmm, didn't I read that in the Bible somewhere???

 

[Reformationist]

As the world is watching, let's always show love and respect for each other; everyone has the "right to be wrong", and there is only one Savior --- none of us.

Whether or not anyone here is RIGHT, the most important thing we should demonstrate, is "Jesus in us". The world should see us, and should see Him IN us; that they want what we have.

(I gotta s'picion everyone will agree....)

I would say that I agree. If we love the Lord then we will strive to be beacons of His glory and be His representatives to the fallen world of His love.

I do take issue with one thing you say here though (I know, it's always something with me, right? )

You said, "everyone has the right to be wrong." I'm curious where this idea comes from. I would definitely agree that everyone is occassionally wrong. I am just not aware of any right given to us to be wrong just because of our propensity to actually be wrong. I hear so many people say this on a regular basis, often in defense of their own mistakes, and I've often wondered if there was some obsure passage in Scripture where God gives man the "right" to be wrong. Any ideas?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[costlygrace]

I would say that I agree. If we love the Lord then
You said, "everyone has the right to be wrong." I'm curious where this idea comes from. I would definitely agree that everyone is occassionally wrong. I am just not aware of any right given to us to be wrong just because of our propensity to actually be wrong. I hear so many people say this on a regular basis, often in defense of their own mistakes, and I've often wondered if there was some obsure passage in Scripture where God gives man the "right" to be wrong. Any ideas?

Thanks,
God bless

We don't have the right to be wrong, ourselves, but we must be Christ-like and not force ourselves on other people, and try to shove our views down their throats. We "persuade men" with the truth, not put them in our straitjackets. God will judge the sinful Himself.

 

[Reformationist]

We don't have the right to be wrong, ourselves, but we must be Christ-like and not force ourselves on other people, and try to shove our views down their throats. We "persuade men" with the truth, not put them in our straitjackets. God will judge the sinful Himself.

I agree. I'm just wondering where people get this view that because it is accurate to say "to err is human" that man, somehow, has the right to err.

My own dear father was giving me some great advice and at one point in the discussion he said, "Well, everyone has the right to make a mistake." I didn't say anything because it was unnecessary but I am learning that this is a more prevalent thing than I thought.

So, anyone, were we given the right to be wrong by someone?

God bless

 

[Ben johnson]

So, anyone, were we given the right to be wrong by someone?

It's a question of "how we deal with others". Each of us thinks he (or she) is right. And that the other, is wrong; love and respect demand that we alow the other to BE wrong.

It is not our job to change people, not our job to save anyone; there is one Savior, Jesus.

Thus --- "right to be wrong", simply recognizes the equal worth-as-a-person of the other.

 

[costlygrace]

It's a question of "how we deal with others". Each of us thinks he (or she) is right. And that the other, is wrong; love and respect demand that we alow the other to BE wrong.

It is not our job to change people, not our job to save anyone; there is one Savior, Jesus.

Thus --- "right to be wrong", simply recognizes the equal worth-as-a-person of the other.

Well put!

 

[Reformationist]

It's a question of "how we deal with others". Each of us thinks he (or she) is right. And that the other, is wrong; love and respect demand that we alow the other to BE wrong.

It is not our job to change people, not our job to save anyone; there is one Savior, Jesus.

Thus --- "right to be wrong", simply recognizes the equal worth-as-a-person of the other.

Ahhh...I see. So you were not really contending that we have the right to be wrong but simply saying that we should respect each other enough not to be ungodly and throw it in their face when someone else is wrong. Did I get that right?

God bless

 

[costlygrace]

Ahhh...I see. So you were not really contending that we have the right to be wrong but simply saying that we should respect each other enough not to be ungodly and throw it in their face when someone else is wrong. Did I get that right?

God bless

Precisely. Good thinking! To his own Master he stands or falls.

 

[Ben johnson]

So you were not really contending that we have the right to be wrong but simply saying that we should respect each other enough not to be ungodly and throw it in their face when someone else is wrong.

"WHEN someone else is wrong"? "Right" or "wrong" is often subjective; you view yourself as right and me as wrong in some instances; and in similar instances I view you as wrong and myself as right. Whether or not you ARE right, or wrong, I'm simply saying that "if my partner* does not agree, I respect him, and allow him (in my esteem) the right to be wrong." Clear?

( * I dislike the term "opponent" --- for that stems from the root, "oppose". I do not oppose those with whom I debate, they are NOT opponents, but brothers in Christ; we debate not to defeat each other, but to share the "win", to the mutual glory of God.)

 

[Ben johnson]

re, post #23:

Great Ben. But the question you should ask yourself is why do you believe the message of the Cross when so many others, who hear the same message, remain obstinate. What makes you different? Why are you open to the Gospel and accept it as true when so many others continue to see it as foolishness?

In discussing theology, we're constrained to limit the discussion to Scripture. The Bible says "some loved the Light, some loved darkness and evil deeds" (Jn3:19-21). I think it is really a matter of "belief" --- I do not think anyone gleefully marches through the gates of Hell if they truly BELIEVE in Hell. Yet even belief itself is a choice. So we are told in Heb3, "watch yourselves, lest you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin". Identical to James1:14-16, "we are tempted when enticed and carried away by lust; lust births sin, and sin brings deat --- do not be deceived beloved brethren". Some love sin more than God, others are convicted by the mesage and believe (Acts2:37). Scripture makes no assertion that God is manipulative in man's "loving sin" or "loving Him".

So, why is the message able to exert any influence over you? According to you, you must first believe or the power of the message, though you acknowledge it exists, is impotent against your unbelief. So, how does one get from being a non-believer to a believer that the message of the Cross has any power?

Maybe I can give you an example? There was a man years ago, who was an atheist. Certain there was no God, that Jesus was the illegitimate child of a family of con artists, he set out to PROVE it. And began reviewing Scripture, and other sources. He expected to find corroberation of the "myth-aspect". But fact after fact began to pile up supporting the INCREDIBLE CREDIBILITY of the Bible, of Jesus' claims, of the Gospel of grace. It can be proven that the OT contains 300+ prophecies of a coming-Messiah. Credibility also exists that the NT is a true record of events; and all the Messianic prophecies were fulfilled. An absolute impossibility from the "myth/random" view. Eventually, he was confronted with undeniable truth; Jesus is God, and salvation.

Convicted by the evidence, the man fell to his knees and received Jesus as Lord, and Savior.

This man wrote down his journey, in books such as, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict", and "More Evidence That Demands a Verdict". Josh McDowell.

"From childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." 2Tim3:15

You see Ben, unless and until a believer acknowledges that the very reason they believe is because God is able to, and does, change their disposition they will continue to believe that their faith is something that they produced on their own, as you seem to believe. Don't you ever stop to ask yourself why you have faith when so many others clearly don't? There are only two places that faith could have come from. Either it was something that was always part of your nature, or, it was an addition to your nature from a foreign source. If you claim that it was always part of you then you boast in your own virtue and make faith a meritorious work that obligates God to save you because you made the right decision. If, however, you acknowledge that faith itself is a gracious gift from God that He gives to those He has ordained unto eternal life then you can rightly say that you are saved by the grace and mercy of God and that your response to His monergistic work in you results in your maturation and sanctification.

No, the verse I just quoted says "faith that saves, comes from wisdom which comes from reading/learning the sacred Scriptures." You see only one "foreign source" --- God. Yet an unsaved man is conscious, can hear of Jesus, and can become convicted and believe. How else are we to take 1Cor1:21? The Gospel IS foolishness to the unsaved man; but THROUGH the foolishness he believes. "God is well-pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." "Save who beileve", not "save and cause belief in whom He has chosen".

It is not God's sovereign choice of some unto salvation that causes them to believe. It is His loving and merciful work of regeneration

Nowhere in Scripture does it say "regeneration and then they believe"; on the contrary, it says "they believe in Jesus, receive Him, receive the Holy Spirit, and receive the Spirit's regeneration".

If we could believe before we were reborn then what would be the point, and necessity, of God rebirthing us?

What does, "REBORN", mean? To me, it is "dead to sin, and alive in Jesus; the Lord and the Spirit indwelling the hearts of beleivers, doing the work of salvation IN us.

Thus, "belief" is not regeneration, though true belief RECEIVES regeneration. In Rev3 is the address to "Laodicea"; it ends with the anology of the DOOR (door-to-the-heart). If we open the door (belief that receives Jesus), then He enters and sups with us (indwells us, the INSIDE-Spirit now regenerating the heart). But we must first open the door and receive Him in...

Lost, fallen, sinful, unforgiven man is convicted in his heart, lifts his hand from the rotten mire, and Jesus regenerates his "believing heart" and regenerates it? This is senseless on so many different levels. First off, what was it that caused this lost, fallen, sinful, unforgiven man to be convicted and believe? We all know that some embrace the message and some reject it. The question is, why do those that embrace it, actually embrace it? Why do they believe the message? What causes it to stop being foolishness and start being power, as you contend? According to you it was their belief? But why did they believe? Why was the message able to convict them when that same message is impotent against the unbelief of so many others?

Sentience. Consciousness. Man is a free moral agent. He chooses whom he loves, and whom he does not.

Again, if the heart can believe before being regenerated, what does it need to be regenerated for? Also, to what is it regenerated? What does regeneration add to the nature of a man that was not already there?

Belief is to open the door of the heart; Jesus then enters and indwells him; through Jesus is poured the Spirit, and the received Spirit is the source of regeneration.

Rom8:13 says "By the Spirit putting to death the things of the flesh..." We walk in the Spirit, or in the flesh; continuous choice, even after being saved. We cannot walk in the Spirit and put to death the flesh, without the RECEIVED Spirit.

Here (Titus 3:5) we plainly see that salvation is solely according to the mercy of God. It is not because of our works of righteousness.

Yes it is.

If you make faith in Christ, i.e., belief, a prerequisite for regeneration then regeneration is deserved, i.e., justice.

I once baked an apple pie for a neighbor; he refused it. Why? I don't know; but it was his choice. If he had RECEIVED the pie (I confess that after the labor of making it, I was tempted to MAKE him receive it, IE "thrown pie" --- but I ate it myself and it was good!) --- if he had received the pie, he would have contributed NOTHING to that pie. I bought the apples and flour and sugar and cinamin and lemon juice; I prepared the crust and filling, and baked it; the pie was NONE of him and ALL of me --- receiving the pie is NOT A WORK, I did all the work in making that pie. Clear as mud?

If, however, man is incapable of faith prior to regeneration then it can only be the product of God's mercy.

But Scripture does not say "he is incapable of faith prior to regeneration"...

Regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit via indwelling is the product of God's pleasure in Christ. It wasn't because you believed first.

I have no qualms acknowledging the limited intent of Christ's sacrifice. Unlike you, I know that faith is the result of God's effective work in the heart of fallen man. God is the Author and the Finisher of our faith. The Bible tells us clearly that God will complete the good work He started in us. If you already had faith, prior to regeneration, then He didn't start it. You did.

Stay with Titus3:5-6.
1. The Spirit is poured through Jesus our Savior. Is He Savior to anywho DON'T BELIEVE?
2. Is the Spirit poured on anyone BEFORE they believe in Jesus as Savior?
3. Regeneration is through the poured Spirit.

Can you answer #1 other than, "no"? Can you answer #2 other than "no"? And #3 other than, "yes"?

For the Spirit to BE poured out upon us, we must BE believers in Savior Jesus Christ. And regeneration does not happen appart from the poured Spirit. Right?

 

[Ben johnson]

Again, I never said that believers cannot become hardened, so what's your point? I'm not sure what verses you're referring to so I can't tell you whether I think it was referring to the unregenerate or actual believers. My point was simply that a "fall" or "hardening" with regard to true believers is never full or final.

I would like to understand what you understand. In Heb3:12-14, if "believers can become hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God", how cn they still be saved? And, contextually, how could it NOT mean "hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God"?

Contextually, how is 3:14 not presented as a "true conditional", not "a mere conditional that God assures they WILL MEET"?

Keeping with context, the comparison is made in 3:15-19 of the Isaelites following Moses; he says, "they were not able to enter because of unbelief".

Context continues with 4:1 --- "Let us fear lest ...any one falls short of entering His rest". And 4:11 --- "Don't imitate those Iraelites' disobedience and UNBELIEF, and FALL." Fall from what, Don? Imitating their unbelief and disobedience is presented as clearly possible. Is there a kind of "saved", that allows "disobedience and unbelief"?

After countless discussions with you on the source of faith, your position being that faith is not something foreign to us, you claim that we generate our own faith and become saved because we put that faith in God. The flip side of that is that a person who generates faith from the wellspring of himself can, at a later date, fall into unbelief and be "unsaved?"

How can you deny Romans 10:10, "With the heart man believes"? And conversely, "hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God, imitating unbelief and disobedience of the Israelites", is "with the HEART man can also UNBELIEVE"?

We're not righteous because we follow God? All our righteousness is as filthy rags before God. Do you think your works so meritorious that God is obliged to consider you righteous for our own sake? For God's sake man, what did you need Jesus for? According to you, you create your own faith, you are saved because we place that faith in Him and you're considered righteous because you follow God. It sounds to me as if you were already worthy of salvation.

If "following God" means that we "receive Him into our hearts", then it also means receiving HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS into our hearts as well. So we are NOT "righteous of ourselves".

And, I don't "create my own faith"; it is required that I first be CALLED by Him (Jn6:44); it is the GOSPEL that, through my ears, convicts me to believe (Rom10:17); yet, all are called, and belief is choice. (Matt22:2-14)

There is none righteous, no not one (Rom 3:10). You begin with a false premise and ask me to answer based on that faulty premise. The only righteous man to ever live is Jesus. We who are reckoned righteous are righteous for Christ's sake, not our own.

There is none righteous apart from Him; for "apart from Him we can do nothing". Jn15:5 But if you take Rom3:11 as, "none EVER seek God", then how do you fit Jeremiah 29:11-14, and Matt7:7-8 into that? Surely this is the same literary device as when Genesis 6:5 first says "man's heart was only evil continually", but then declares that Noah WAS RIGHTEOUS (6:8-9)

So the "none-seek" is a general statement, and does not deny that "if you seek Me YOU WILL FIND ME".

Okay. Yet you contend that belief must proceed the indwelling of the Spirit. Is believing in God not righteous? If, as you contend, and I agree, man cannot be righteous of himself how, pray tell, do you purport that he overcomes this inherent proclivity to unrighteousness and starts believing?

Paul says it; "THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached (foolish to the unrighteous), he believes and God saves him.

In light of your claim that "faith is your response to His grace" I would love to know if God gives this same grace, that in you produced faith, to all people?

I don't know why I believed and another does not. I know that I could stumble, without the warned diligence; thus, I walk in Him. All I know, is that Scripures says "salvation came to all; and those who beleive are saved". How can we deny that "justification came to all, in exactly the same measure as came condemnation to all" in Rom5:17-18? And yet, "all sin and are condemned" (5:12), but only "those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteosuness shall reign with Jesus". Rom5:17

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

So long as a person remains in their unregenerate (carnal) state they are incapable of submitting to God.

Context (Rom8:12-15) clearly presents "walking in the FLESH (death) or walking in the SPIRIT (life) as CHOICE" --- we are UNDER OBLIGATION...

Look at Rom8:15, btw --- "the RECEIVED Spirit of adoption as sons" --- can we ceny that the Spirit is received, through belief?

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

"Can" is not indicative of permission. It indicates ability. Jesus clearly states that man has a natural inability to "come to Christ." To "come to Christ" is to have faith in Him.

But where does it say "He does not draw all to Himself"? I see Jn12:32 as saying exactly that. And it reflects perfectly on the "parable of Heaven" in Matt22:2-14; by the end of the story, NONE have NOT been called; some decide to come, some don't. No indication of ANYTHING the king did to influence them...

To "see" the Kingdom of God is to "perceive" or "turn one's attention to." The ironic thing is that we are told, plainly, that unless one is born again one cannot even perceive or turn their attention to the Kingdom of God, much less embrace it in faith, yet so many people claim that this is some kind of reference to something we do, like baptism.

But what is "BORN AGAIN"? Look at how Romans 8 is worded; "Walk in the flesh, OR by the Spirit put to death the flesh". Now look at Romans 6: "How shall we who have DIED to sin, still live IN it? You are CRUCIFIED with Christ, BURIED with Him, IMMERSED into His death; UNITED in the likness of death. And then, also united in the liikeness of His resurrection, our old self crucified with Him that ...we no longer be slaves to sin; so CONSIDER yourselves dead to sin but ALIVE TO GOD in Christ Jesus."

This is "BORN AGAIN" --- dead to sin, alive in Him --- BY the Spirit. The RECEIVED Spirit (Rm8:15) OBLIGATION not to walk in sin but in the Spirit, CONSIDER YOURESLVES dead to sin and alive in Him. A continual walk, Don.

"As you have RECEIVED Christ, so walk IN Him." Col2:6"

If we are "unilaterally regenerated apart from and before belief", then it is not by obligation that we "walk not in the flesh but in the Spirit", it is consequence of that regeneration.

But --- if we are regenerated THROUGH our belief, then we ARE obligated to walk in Him (and in belief), and not in sin/flesh/unbelief. Aren't we?

 

[Received]

Great Ben. But the question you should ask yourself is why do you believe the message of the Cross when so many others, who hear the same message, remain obstinate. What makes you different? Why are you open to the Gospel and accept it as true when so many others continue to see it as foolishness?

This is question begging. The reason some choose faith is because they choose faith; the reason that some remain obstinate is they choose obstinance. You are denying the possibility of human freedom by playing your cards against human freedom, and expecting an answer from those who hold human freedom to play according to your rules.