A question for FULL preterists

franklin · Jun 12, 2002

To Shag, Mandy, & unknown name... what a way to start my day reading your comments and replies!! I'm ROFLOL'g.....You 3 are hillarious!!!
This is great! Keep up the good work!! So how long have you 3 had this desire to be in the standup comedy business!!! I'll be answering you one at a time later today... I have to go and earn a living!!!! Or maybe I should just quit my day gig, since the Lord might return before the clock strikes 5!!! Well, I guess that depends on when the 40 year generation period started that our precious Lord Jesus told His audience more than 2K years ago! Are you ready????

parousia70 · Jun 12, 2002

Originally posted by Shaggy
The New Testament was written for us.

Yes, but it wasn't written to us.

Originally posted by Shaggy
Why would Jesus blind us futurists by not letting us in on the fact this is his Kingdom?

Perhaps He Put us preterists here to "let you in on that fact"

Originally posted by Shaggy
Surely I am as saved as you, and you are as saved as me.

Absolutely Agreed

Originally posted by Shaggy
If this is Christs Kingdom why would the futurist not know it?

Again, thanks to the preterists, the futurists are 'coming around', in fact every single preterist was once futurist.

Originally posted by Shaggy

Y'all are not making sense and this prospect of Preterism is scary! Would my belief system be scary in Christs Kingdom? No Way!

Perhaps you could explain what is so scary about Satan being already defeated, and what is so scary about Christ and Christians ruling the earth today as Priests and Kings, destined to increase in power forever? Why does that prospect scare you exactly?

How can that possibly be more scary than your futurist idea that "it must get worse before it can get better", and "satan rules the earth today", and Satan's power is only getting stronger, and that Christians are helpless to stop it?

Autumn · Jun 12, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70

How can that possibly be more scary than your futurist idea that "it must get worse before it can get better", and "satan rules the earth today", and Satan's power is only getting stronger, and that Christians are helpless to stop it?

Ummm...I speak from the futurist viewpoint and well, Satan has been defeated. Christians are not helpless to stop him because the Holy Spirit (GOD) lives within us. He has been defeated, but he has not yet been cast away. He still roams the earth and deceives those who do not have the Holy Spirit guiding them. But if we are faithful, God will use the acts of the evil one to strengthen us.

2 Peter 5
8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
9 But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.
10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
11 To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.

franklin · Jun 12, 2002

Originally posted by Kelier
I find it funny that you say that franklin, considering that you have NO CLUE how we came to our beliefs. I was not taught premillennialism by any man or church. I will believe God's word and what it truly and CLEARLY says.

Keiler, for some reason your name doesn't show... Anyway, I don't see how you can say I have 'NOCLUE' as to how you came to your futurist beliefs? That's just the point sister! I have been a former futurist myself! hello! If you believe God's word and can clearly see the truths of His word, you would forsake all your dispensationalist, futurist beliefs! As for being taught the premil view, I used to think that was taught in the Bible too! I think you need to reexamine who you are really listening to, God's word or man's word!

franklin · Jun 12, 2002

Originally posted by Shaggy
davo, Jesus hasn't returned yet.

Shag, and futurists have the nerve and the audacity calling preterist's mockers and scoffers?!? The first century scoffers are looking really good right about now!

parousia70 · Jun 12, 2002

Originally posted by Autumn

Ummm...I speak from the futurist viewpoint and well, Satan has been defeated. Christians are not helpless to stop him because the Holy Spirit (GOD) lives within us.

Ok Autumn, so do you agree that Christians today can be successful in stopping satan's dominion from increasing to the point that He will/ through the beast, rule all the nations sometime in our future?, or do you in fact believe Christians have no power to prevent that from happening?

NumberOneSon · Jun 12, 2002

Why would Jesus blind us futurists by not letting us in on the fact this is his Kingdom?

If this is Christs Kingdom why would the futurist not know it?

What? We don't deserve it? We are blinded? this does not make sense.

Hi Autumn. I'm sure these are some of the very same kinds of questions that people asked during the reformation. Truth be told, until the 1500's, the Church did not believe in "Sola Scriptora", or "Sola Fide".

Was the Church "blind" in many aspects of doctrine for 1500 years after Christ?
Yes, it was.

Was it Christs' fault?
No, it was all Man.

The problem is that many people today have no problem with reformation in the Church...as long as it happened 500 years ago and is contained only in history books. Why would reformation in major areas of doctrine be necessary 1500 years after Christ, but yet it is unthinkable for reformation in the Church to occur 2000 years after Christ?

Doctrinal blindness in the Church is not the fault of God, but of Man. He allows blindness, just like He did with the Israelites.

The good thing is, He also allows us to correct our blindness.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jun 12, 2002

Originally posted by Shaggy

davo, NO ONE will miss Christs return, it will be glorious event, and no one will have ANY doubt when this happens. Please believe that!

Hi Shaggy Let me pass this one to you since on futurist as been able to answer my question. Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets ) clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ.

My question to you is this. Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" Jesus ever distinguish between his first and second coming (Matthew 26:62-64) so why do you?

If you believe Jesus is yet to return where in the Old Testament is your proof.

If we believe something we should be able to show it from the Bible. So where in the Old Testament does God's prophets ever distinguish between his first and second coming? Scripture please.

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jun 12, 2002

Good post Davo and Acts

The last thing one should ever doing is blaming Jesus for the errors one choose to believe. One must take some responsibility and be accountable and try to change it.

Thanks be to God people are doing just that.

GW · Jun 13, 2002

Originally posted by Shaggy
Jesus hasn't returned yet.

Brother Shagg, He has:

WHEN THE LORD OF THE VINEYARD COMES, what will he do unto those husbandmen? [i.e., the jews who killed Jesus and his apostles]

They replied unto him, 'He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.'

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

THEREFORE SAY I UNTO YOU, THE KINGDOM OF GOD SHALL BE TAKEN FROM YOU, AND GIVEN TO A NATION BRINGING FORTH THE FRUITS THEREOF. AND WHOSOEVER SHALL FALL ON THIS STONE SHALL BE BROKEN: BUT ON WHOMSOEVER IT SHALL FALL IT WILL GRIND HIM TO POWDER.

And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that HE SPAKE OF THEM.

--Matthew 21:40-45

Jesus is the Stone. That Stone came and did grind them to powder. He was, indeed, the Lord of the Vineyard. They perceived that He spoke of them.

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jun 13, 2002

Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70

Hi Shaggy Let me pass this one to you since on futurist as been able to answer my question. Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets ) clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ.

My question to you is this. Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" Jesus ever distinguish between his first and second coming (Matthew 26:62-64)

And there was silence in the heavens. It seems like Shaggy has on scripture to show why he believes the things he does. It is one thing to believe something is true, and another thing to believe something is true, and show were it is in scripture.

Back To The Future · Jun 14, 2002

I can't fine the forum on posting a verse for the preterist to answer so I will ask it here.
If it gets moved, please just let me know.

This is the verse that has me all excited.
Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Why I was interested in this verse and what it means is this. In the Old Testatment the high priest would go into the temple once a year for a blood sacfifice, but it wasn't until he returned to the people that they recieved salvation. (am I right here?)

So what I am thinking is that when Jesus died on the cross we didn't have our salvation then. But when he came back in 70 AD that is when are salvation came into being.
That is one of the reasons that it is so important to know that things were all fulfilled in 70 AD. Or we would not have our salvation today??

I may be all wrong on this. But Hey!! I try hard
Nancy

parousia70 · Jun 14, 2002

Nancy, you are absolutely correct.

The OC priest would enter the holy of holies with the sacrifice,Fill the inner temple with inscense, sprinkle the blood on the altar, and if it was accepted by God, he would return out of the "clouds" of inscense to announce that atonement had been achieved. Only after he returned would the people know the sacrifice had been accepted.

Often it wasn't, and resulted in the death of the priest on the spot. This got so rampant that they began putting bells ont he priests robes, and would tie a rope around his leg. If the bells stopped jingling, they knew the sacrifice had not been accepted and they could retreive the dead priest by pulling the rope.

As you pointed out Nancy, the writer of Hebrews tells us that this "earthly" ceremony was the shadow of What Christ was doing at the time Hebrews was written. They were waiting for him to return from the holy of holies, on the "cloud" to perfect salvation.

The futurist runs into a problem here (where dosen't he anymore?) in that if we are still waiting for Christ to return, we can not be certain that we have achieved salvation, for only after He comes, is salvation complete.
Thats why it's called the "day of redemption" because no one can be redeemed before that day.

Futurists might want to consider "pulling on the rope" about now.

Good post!

jenlu · Jun 14, 2002

Just side note...wonder if you agree...Salvation for the poeple in the instance of the priest would actually in all reality occur at the time of the acceptance of the offering by God... like I think you are suggesting as well Parousia...not at the return ...but as you have pointed out so eloquently, that's how the people would know about the acceptance...So in the same light, I think it's safe to say salvation was complete at the cross(through the cross, upon the cross, whatever)...it was just confirmed by the Coming...replies

davo · Jun 14, 2002

Salvation [our righteous standing in Christ] came by way of the Cross. The way in to God's Presence was set fully in motion -hence Jesus words "it is finished!" This had an outworking i.e., what was set in motion through the Cross finds it's consumation in the Parousia. Jesus said "the fields are white for harvest" -those who were in that generation responding in faith to the Gospel were indeed as Paul says "first-fruits" of the harvest. The harvest always followed immediately on from the first-fruits. The "harvest" was "The Resurrection" at the Parousia. The harvest is the "ingathering" [1Thess 4:17] -the Hope of Israel.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

If righteousness [salvation] was a completed event AT the Cross -why were they waitng in hope for it?

They were waiting because salvation was being brought to perfection i.e., to completion.

davo

parousia70 · Jun 14, 2002

Originally posted by jenlu
Just side note...wonder if you agree...Salvation for the poeple in the instance of the priest would actually in all reality occur at the time of the acceptance of the offering by God... like I think you are suggesting as well Parousia...not at the return ...but as you have pointed out so eloquently, that's how the people would know about the acceptance...So in the same light, I think it's safe to say salvation was complete at the cross(through the cross, upon the cross, whatever)...it was just confirmed by the Coming...replies

Thats a great point. I'd differ wth your "chain of events" slightly however. If we are comparing everything the priest did with everything Jesus Did, then the cross must have been the antitype of the "slaying" of the animal.

After the animal was slain, the priest then went into the holy of holies to sprinkle the blood on the altar.

Christs ascention must have been the antitype to the priest entering the temple, because, according to the writer of Hebrews, presenting the sacrifice for approval was what Jesus was doing at the time Hebrews was written (late 60's AD),some 30 odd years after the cross.

Other than that, i think you make a good point. Once the sacrifice is accepted, atonement had been achieved, however the priest had to return out, place his hands on the scapegoat, before they could actually "utalize" that atonement for their benifit.

In other words, while it may be technically correct that atonement is acheived the moment the sacriice is accepted, it didn't do the people any good, nor could it, until the "entirety" of the ritual was completed.

I don't know of any recorded instance where atonement was achieved, but the priest failed to follow through with the rest of his duties. That would be interesting to find out if that ever happened...

In Christ,
P70

Back To The Future · Jun 15, 2002

Hi,
I just have another quick question. I was thinking this morning about the verse from John 3:16.
For God so loved the World... Would World in this instance mean/jews/Gentiles or Church/Israel?
This may seem like a bizarre question.
I was just wondering because at the time this verse was said I doubt the apostles had a real understanding of the World, like we do today. And then if we used perhaps the word lets say Jew and Gentiles, So it read more like, For God so loved the Jews and Gentiles that he gave his only begotten son...
Anyway I was thinking that for the futurists it would make more sense to see this verse was pertaining to the time it was written and to whom. And they wouldn't be waiting for the entire World as we know it today to be saved before the Lord comes back in their eyes.
Again, I may be way off here, so let me have it. But nicely
Nancy

parousia70 · Jun 15, 2002

Originally posted by Back To The Future
Hi,
I just have another quick question. I was thinking this morning about the verse from John 3:16.
For God so loved the World... Would World in this instance mean/jews/Gentiles or Church/Israel?
This may seem like a bizarre question.

Not Bizarre at all!

A quick check of the Greek word translated into the english "world" in this instance, gives us the answer you seek.

The Greek word is "Kosmos" which means the entire universe, earth and human family.

Unlike the word "Oikoumene" which is also translated into "world" in other passages, but means the "Roman Empire", which would consist of Jews and gentiles.

Or the word "Aion" which, although translated into "World" in the KJV, actually means "age, dispensation, or period of time.

In John 3:16, we see that God so Loved the entire created universe that He sent His son.

Hope that helps

Back To The Future · Jun 15, 2002

P70
Thanks so much,
That does help!!
Just imagine, the whole entire universe. For God so loved the Word
Thanks
Nancy

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