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How do we tell who has been given the correct instructions?
How do we tell who has been given the correct instructions?
Hear hear -- because I have yet to meet a deity who's been consistent regarding such instruction...they all seem pretty flighty.
I know one who says He's the only one. I've come to accept this. You haven't.
So, where do we go from here that will change any of our beliefs? If we go back to the topic of morality, then there are many, many specific points to discuss. Many we'll find agreement on because to some degree we're wired the same from the start. Many we'll disagree on for many reasons.
TLK, in reading the statements about ignorance, is there any among us that is not ignorant to some degree?
The Heinlein quote is interesting. One of the better things I've read re: free will was that ultimately, it's about the freedom to choose. The question I'm left with is, who is he morally responsible to, what is he choosing between, and where did that morality or those moralities come from?
Ah, the great question of the church. Honestly, there isn't a clear answer; even in the Bible when people performed miracles, not all were doing it for God's sake, so even the claim that miracles will follow God's leaders is not entirely reliable.How do we tell who has been given the correct instructions?
I think its about our interactions with others because there needs to be some rules/norms that govern how we treat others. I think we start of with a basic intuition and develop that.I find that a very powerful tool to get to the heart of any issue is to ask: What perceptually self-evident facts of reality give rise to the need for a certain concept or idea. So I'd like to ask everyone what facts of reality give rise to the need for morality. I use the word perceptually self-evident because I'm interested in getting to the heart of the issue. I want to reduce the idea to its foundation and the foundation of any knowledge is perception. So what facts available in direct perception give rise to the need for morality.
I'm defining morality as a set of principles to guide one's actions in the pursuit of a good life. why do we need such a concept in the first place?
You choose to believe it. I haven't.
Who says I want to change your beliefs? Are you out to change mine? To what, I wonder?
Indeed -- but at least we are not ignorant that we are ignorant... "I know that I know nothing" -- Socrates.
It would be more specific to say that willful ignorance, and especially weaponized ignorance, are the root of evil... but there's only so much space allowed in a signature...
Morally responsible to himself, as like as not.
The deity of choice can bless or forgive any action, no matter how reprehensible -- but it's still your face you have to see in the mirror every day.
Ah, the great question of the church. Honestly, there isn't a clear answer; even in the Bible when people performed miracles, not all were doing it for God's sake, so even the claim that miracles will follow God's leaders is not entirely reliable.
Ultimately, this is my creed: seek truth above all else. Many men and churches and religious organizations will tell you what is right and wrong; who is to say whether it is you or they who are in the right? An open mind and a healthy dose of skepticism are necessary. Question authority whenever you see it; not in an accusatory manner, but in a manner that seeks to purge any and all flaws or mistruths for the benefit of all, and most importantly, question yourself and every last one of your own beliefs, and be willing to accept truths that may be uncomfortable or hard to swallow. Only then can you emerge confident in your beliefs. If you want to listen to the words of a deity, whichever deity that may be, don't listen to the words of men; go directly to the source. Then you will either be told what people you should listen to, or you will receive no answer and realize it is all a farce.
You have a question about God? Ask the sky. Whoever's listening will reply. It might not be in the way you expect or want, but either any higher power that exists cares about us and will listen to our pleas, or is uncaring or simply nonexistent. In any case, you will have your answer.
Truth will inevitably come to light. All men die, and in that moment, there shall be no arguing as to what, if anything, lies beyond. The truth does not change according to our perception; that is what the meaning of "truth" is. Therefore, if one wishes to have a solid foundation for one's life, truth is the most important thing to seek. As Mark Twain once said, "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."
As your quote from Voltaire says, "Doubt is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one." So be willing to doubt yourself and your most tried and true beliefs. I have done so, and slowly but surely I am emerging all the stronger for it, for like Descartes discovering his famous truth I think, therefore I am", we must find truth to base ourselves upon, lest all meaning be washed away in a sea of chaos and fluid perception.
"There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds." - Alfred Lord Tennyson
So do you get moral guidance from Him?
Yes, in a few ways: Study of His Text under the guidance of His Spirit, Him restructuring my thinking in line with His Text and by His Spirit, His putting me through tests & discipline to exercise and develop my thoughts and actions experientially, Him changing the contents of my conscience and desires in line with all of the preceding. There's more language to apply to this, but this gets the basic points across.
Hi Stevevw,I think its about our interactions with others because there needs to be some rules/norms that govern how we treat others. I think we start of with a basic intuition and develop that.
At the fundemental level is the subject so we cannot exclude peoples experiences from understanding and as we are conscious rational and moral beings its just a natural part of being human. But I don't think this can be measured by naturalistic methods.
Primarily everything stems back to conscious human life being intrinsically valuable as a First Principle truth.
Yes, in a few ways: Study of His Text under the guidance of His Spirit,
Him restructuring my thinking in line with His Text and by His Spirit, His putting me through tests & discipline to exercise and develop my thoughts and actions experientially, Him changing the contents of my conscience and desires in line with all of the preceding.
There's more language to apply to this, but this gets the basic points across.
But I guess that you accept the responsibility for deciding what is morally correct or not.
How does one tell the difference between one's own intuition and His Spirit?
Him making you less "you" and more...
Because the language to apply may contain terms such as "indoctrination" and "brainwashing."
Over time I've simply found my conscience and desires become more in line with His Spirit and Word...
I agree, couldn't have said it better myself. In fact you do say it better than myself lol.Hi Stevevw,
I agree with you that life is the most fundamental value. That's because it is being alive that makes values possible. Life is the only thing that makes values possible and it is the only thing that makes values necessary. By value, I mean anything that we act to gain or keep for the purpose of living.
I hold that life is the standard of value because it is the only value that is an end in itself. All other values are pursued for the purpose of living. Notice that all the facts which I and others pointed to all revolve around life. Why are some things good and some bad for us? Because our lives are conditional. Why are our lives conditional? Because of our nature as living beings who face the alternative of life vs. death. So morality is all about life. Every living thing requires v
I wouldn't call it an intrinsic value though. The concept of value presupposes the answer to two questions: of value to whom and for what?. There are two false views of values that are commonplace in philosophy. One is the intrinsic view of values that holds that values exist out there in reality apart from the mind or the valuer. This view dispenses with the valuer. There is also the subjective view of values that holds that values exist in the mind apart from reality. This view dispenses with the object or thing that is valued.
There is a third view: A value is something in reality as judged against a standard for a purpose. I think that life is that standard and that purpose.
I think that morality reduces to this fact: That man exists, he has a specific nature requiring specific actions because he faces the alternative of life vs. death. In other words, morality starts with the existence/ identity of man. You could say that the need for values is part of our identity as living beings and it's the same for all living things, even the simplest of life forms.
I presume that when you say 'Word' you mean the bible. But then again, there's a lot I could take from the bible. Especially what Jesus is meant to have preached. But there are passages that both of us would baulk at, especially in the OT. So I don't see much difference in me deciding 'this is worth listening to, but this definitely ain't...' I'd say that we both go through the same process deciding between right and wrong whether we're reading the bible or the Quran or Aristotle or Hume.
As to being 'in line with His spirit', I have no conception of what that could mean. Sounds deep and meaningfull though.
By value, I mean anything that we act to gain or keep for the purpose of living
I think your views expressed here assume that our existence ends at death.Hi Stevevw,
I agree with you that life is the most fundamental value. That's because it is being alive that makes values possible. Life is the only thing that makes values possible and it is the only thing that makes values necessary. By value, I mean anything that we act to gain or keep for the purpose of living.
I hold that life is the standard of value because it is the only value that is an end in itself. All other values are pursued for the purpose of living. Notice that all the facts which I and others pointed to all revolve around life. Why are some things good and some bad for us? Because our lives are conditional. Why are our lives conditional? Because of our nature as living beings who face the alternative of life vs. death. So morality is all about life. Every living thing requires v
I wouldn't call it an intrinsic value though. The concept of value presupposes the answer to two questions: of value to whom and for what?. There are two false views of values that are commonplace in philosophy. One is the intrinsic view of values that holds that values exist out there in reality apart from the mind or the valuer. This view dispenses with the valuer. There is also the subjective view of values that holds that values exist in the mind apart from reality. This view dispenses with the object or thing that is valued.
There is a third view: A value is something in reality as judged against a standard for a purpose. I think that life is that standard and that purpose.
I think that morality reduces to this fact: That man exists, he has a specific nature requiring specific actions because he faces the alternative of life vs. death. In other words, morality starts with the existence/ identity of man. You could say that the need for values is part of our identity as living beings and it's the same for all living things, even the simplest of life forms.
Some will tell you differently than I will, but my answer: I wouldn't go straight to intuition apart from defining more precisely what we're talking about. It has some fairly extensive meanings or applications. Since we're talking about morality, I'll apply what I said to that and simply deal with thought, or even conscience. It's difficult at first and has become easier over time to know the leading of His Spirit, but such leading is always in line with His Word. Over time I've simply found my conscience and desires become more in line with His Spirit and Word, so my thoughts have come to match His moral standards more and more.
Him making me less and less the messed up me that did not align with His standards and more and more what He designed us all to be. In the process life has become much easier and all the nonsense & turmoil I experienced from messed up decisions and pursuits of what I used to be attracted to is gone. The lessons continue but at a different level with deeper issues.
Not an unexpected response, but pretty basic, TLK. I'll discuss such things with you to a point but casually applying them to me is not meaningful and says more about you than me. Although there is certainly some to extensive indoctrination and brainwashing in just about any, or even every secular and religious system of thinking people get involved in, including many of the abundant sects of christendom, I can assure you that some of us did not start in our Christian pursuits early in life and some of us pursue this at levels of personal studies, dedication, thought and reasoning coupled with whatever life experience we had prior to entering Christianity as well as thereafter, that will not match the base examples you might throw at us.
I don't know your age, but I'm not young and probably have about 50% of my life lived in each of the non-Christian and Christian states. I was able to pursue my Faith for the most part as a full-time endeavor when I entered into it, which meant much to all of the day every day for years that turned into decades of intensive studies apart from typical distractions. The latter 50% has been much better and more meaningful than all the pursuits of the first 50% and it's my intention that the latter increases and the earlier decreases and the changes in me do the same.
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