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A Question for Creationists

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lasthero

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First of all you have no real evicence that natural selelction is a fact. The kids don't get to select what traits they will get.

No one ever said they did.

Natural selection. Natural. What part of 'natural' do you not understand?

The rabbit with the strogner legs might not become extinct, but it will only produce other rabbits

Obviously.

because of the gene pool of the parent some of hte kidsd may not get the stronger legs

And nature will select against them. They'll be less likely to breed. Eventually, there wil only be rabbits with stronger legs. Natural selection. Bam.

Tell many stages are needed for an A to evolve into a B.

I'm guessing you (somehow) forgot the word 'me how' in this sentence. You do know you can edit posts after you've made them, right?

great majority of fossils would be transitiona and afte 100+years, y ou have zero
Why do all the fossils that scientists have labeled as 'transitional' not count as 'transitional fossils'? What is your definition of a 'transitional fossil', and how has it not been met.

I will accept any definition you choose,

No. You provide a definition. You clearly have some idea of what a transition is supposed to be, otherwise you couldn't (honestly) say we've never found one. So explain what you feel is and is not a transitional fossil. Actually give a criteria and stick to it like a man, instead of putting yourself in a position where you can move the goalposts at will.
 
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lasthero

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I will hved o go back and read your link, but I can guarentee you that it did not provide ant any biological evidence

See, this is your problem - you reject evidence before you even actually see it. It doesn't matter what we present, you know it's wrong before you even look...and yet you still ask for it, anyway. And the minute people start to give you some advanced stuff, you run away, screaming about how it's not your 'pay grade'.

You're not interested in any honest debate; you've already made up your mind on this subject and you're not the least bit open to anything that goes against your notions.
 
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Smidlee

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Stop.

Could you do me a favor? Actually summarize Casey's argument, in your own words.

And while you're at it, since you don't like that list, here's some more stuff to chew on.

Speciation by natural and sexual selection: models an... [Am Nat. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI

Wandering Fly Gene Supports New Model of Speciation: Scientific American

Evidence for speciation

Would you like more?
Ok. If you are not interested in looking at other people links then don't post links yourself.
I did read the second article dealing with flies since it was mention heavily in TO link. ( it also point out what Noble was talking about. The cell/creature will make changes to it's own DNA.) It seems another example of evolutionist badly grabbing for straws to build more straw man. The third one seems to be more repeats of the TO link.

I know it's long by the creationist video even attempt to answer "What is a kind?" question. He suggested to ask the creature itself as often they will recognize their own kind.
 
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lasthero

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If you are not interested in looking at other people links then don't post links yourself
What makes you think I didn't look at the link?

It seems another example of evolutionist badly grabbing for straws to build more straw man.

That's not how a strawman argument works, but whatever. How is it grasping at straws?


The third one seems to be more repeats of the TO link.

How so?
 
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OllieFranz

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Not really. There is no free will in the selection of traits. It issoley detemined by the gene pool of the parents. If I could have selected my traits, I would be 6 ft tall and the best shortstp baseball had eve seen.

But you are not the selector, you are the product of the selection. The selector is the farmer or the rancher in the case of animal husbandry, and environmental pressures in the case of Natural Selection.

One thing you seem to miss (and I'm not singling you out, it's a common misconception among those that don't actually study evolution -- even including those who argue for it) is that evolution is not an event that happens to an individual, it is an ever-ongoing process that describes populations statistically.

Let's assume that you are a breeder of screwts. If you only have one male and one female, then you are stuck with just the four (or less, if there are duplicates) alleles for skin color. But if you have 100 males and 100 females,you can choose to only let red screwts breed.

If red is a dominant trait, then there are probably parents with alleles for recessive colors. Not only is one generation not enough to eliminate the recessive alleles from the next generation, but there is a chance that there will be offspring that inherit only recessive allels and do not get red skin at all. On the other hand, while only 40% of the original herd are red-skinned, 90% of the first generation offspring have red skin. Using the same breeding strategy, we get a second-generation herd of 95% red skinned. If the percentage were a smooth funtion, it would approach 100% red as a limit, but never reach that limit, but since the percentage is calculated from discrete, whole numbers of offspring, there will be a time when they other alleles are eliminated entirely.

If it is not a breeder, but the environment that is selecting for red skin, then there is nothing but opportunity that "forces" two red-skinned screwts to breed, or "prevents" non-red screwts from breeding. There will still be the occasional blue-skin or green-skin mating. The first generation will be 75% instead of 90%. The second generation will be 80% instead of 95%. A much slower approach to the goal.

Bred breeds reach uniformity before the number of changed genes present a cross-breeding problem. Great Danes can still (in principle) be bred with chihuahuas. But "wild" breeds will often accumulate enough changes that they can't cross breed. For example, Herring Gulls cannot cross-breed with Black-backed Gulls.

At what point do we decide that Herring Gulls are a different species from Black-backed Gulls? We could say that when we reach the point where there is no chance whatsoever of cross-breeding the two. But there are two problems with that idea. First, there is no way to determine exactly what generation that degree of separation occurs, so we can only declare the sub-populations to be new species some time long after the split occurs. Plus, there is the problem of hybrids.

Horses and donkeys are so different that they are clearly labelled as different species, and yet, they can hybridize. At one time it was claimed that because the hybrid offspring were sterile (not "impotent") , it didn't matter that the hybridization was possible. But a significant number of female hinneys are not only fertile, but can concieve and bear the fetus to term. And among the Great Cats (genus Panthera) all of the female hybrids are fertile and can be re-hybridized.

In conclusion, there is never a single, one time historic "event" which produces a new species, it is a slow, generational, statistical process with no clear ending points.
 
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Naraoia

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Let me make it simple. What as the first primate and how do you know it?
It's impossible to tell that you have found "the" first primate from the fossil record. You can say that you have found primitive primates (for example, these guys), or close relatives of primates (these ones).

Right, that is why you have no biological evidence for comon descent. The DNA for all species is different.
The DNA for all individuals is different. Heck, my brother even has a whole chromosome I don't. By your logic, me and my brother aren't related.

First of all you have no real evicence that natural selelction is a fact. The kids don't get to select what traits they will get.
Natural selection isn't a choice by the individual. It's merely the fact that some heritable traits let you leave more descendants than others. And since they are heritable, having more descendants means the traits in question will spread. It's that simple.

This video contains a wonderful explanation of natural selection:
How Evolution REALLY Works, Part I - YouTube

Tell many stages are needed for an A to evolve into a B. The point is that if evolution sqas true, the great majority of fossils would be transitiona and afte 100+years, y ou have zero
Seeing as we're pretty convinced about a large number of fossils being transitional (Archaeopteryx, Ichthyostega or Helicocystis being just a few examples), I think there's a bit of miscommunication going on here.

Can you help us understand your thinking? Assume for a moment that, say, fish did turn into land vertebrates. What would you expect a transitional fossil representing this event to look like?

Okay I missed something. But he did not say what else contributed to evolution.
Yes, he did. Natural selection. (Which is only one of the mechanisms that sort among the variation produced by mutations.)

Biology is no my strong suit.
If you know that, then perhaps your approach should be to ask questions and try to understand the answers, not to declare them wrong...

That is why I stick to the basicis and I have read some beyond the basics.
You may have read beyond the basics before understanding them properly... I mean, the way natural selection works is a really, really basic idea. This is something you learn, or should learn, in high school at the latest, and it's really not rocket science. Yet you have just shown a complete lack of understanding of it.

Do you really no think it is absurd to say all the variety of life we have today started out as somethig that you don't even know what it was.
No. The evidence for common descent is largely independent of the identity of the common ancestor. You don't have to know what was at the root of a phylogenetic tree to see that a group of organisms can be arranged in one.

That we are descened from plants is something you cannot prove.
That's because no one says we did, can you please stop attacking this straw man?
 
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frogman2x

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It's impossible to tell that you have found "the" first primate from the fossil record. You can say that you have found primitive primates (for example, these guys), or close relatives of primates (these ones).

So as usual, you guess, make up some senerio you think plausable and go on from there. Not very scientific.

The DNA for all individuals is different. Heck, my brother even has a whole chromosome I don't. By your logic, me and my brother aren't related.

How did that monkey get something your parents did not have? Why did your brotgher get it but you did not? That alone should break the chain of evidence for the common descent of apes and humans.

Natural selection isn't a choice by the individual. It's merely the fact that some heritable traits let you leave more descendants than others. And since they are heritable, having more descendants means the traits in question will spread. It's that simple.

Even if that is true, and it can't be proven, the species may last longer, but it will never be anything other than what it parents were and it will never produce anything other than what it is. It is that old "after its kind" nemesis.

This video contains a wonderful explanation of natural selection:
How Evolution REALLY Works, Part I - YouTube

The usual evo rhetoric---dogmatic statements and no biological evidence.

One of your heroes in the faith, Colin Patterson, says, "No one has ever prfoducedc a species by mechanism of naturla selectdion. No one has ever gotten near it..."("Cladistics" INterviewon BBC, March 4, 1982).

I would put my faity in Patterson before I wuld put in in anything on YouTube.

Seeing as we're pretty convinced about a large number of fossils being transitional (Archaeopteryx, Ichthyostega or Helicocystis being just a few examples), I think there's a bit of miscommunication going on here.

No miscommunications here. Many hard core evo admit there are no transitional fossils. Here is a statgemente from Erenst Mayr in his book, "What Evolutin is," p. 189: "Wherever we look at living biota,...discontinuties are overwhelmingly frequent...The discontinuities are even more striking in the fossil record. New species usually appear in the fossil record suddenly, not connected with their ancestors by a series of intermediates." On page 69 he says "the fossil record is woefully inadequate."


Gould said basically the samem thing so he invented P.E. which is even more absurd. Mayr still thinks she fossil record is the most convicning evidence for eolution. It seems illogical to say something that is woefully inadequate is the best evidence for anything.

Can you help us understand your thinking? Assume for a moment that, say, fish did turn into land vertebrates. What would you expect a transitional fossil representing this event to look like?

Something with fur or skin instead of scales and something without gills. Since soft tissue is not usually fosiled, I don't think you can find one. You certainly can't provide the biological evidence that made it possible.

Yes, he did. Natural selection. (Which is only one of the mechanisms that sort among the variation produced by mutations.)

This is my pet peeve discussing this subject. You make a dogmatic statement and provide no biologicval evidence. You just say it happened and everyone is suppose to say, wonderful.

If you know that, then perhaps your approach should be to ask questions and try to understand the answers, not to declare them wrong...

Then you need to present the evidence that proves they are not right.

You may have read beyond the basics before understanding them properly... I mean, the way natural selection works is a really, really basic idea. This is something you learn, or should learn, in high school at the latest, and it's really not rocket science. Yet you have just shown a complete lack of understanding of it.

No I haven't. You just say it happend and yet offer no evidence. Let's get specific. Natural selection preaches the passing of good traits to the offspring. Now even that can't be proved. You have no evidence that there a trait for stronger legs in rabbits. There is a gene for legs but not for better legs. For the sake of aargument I will give you a gene for stronger legs. Now how does this cause the rabbits with the stronger legs to become anythign o her than a rabbit? Yoou are the one with a degree in evolutionary biology, so include the biological evidence that makes it posssib le fdor a rabbit to evolve into something other than a rabbit.

No. The evidence for common descent is largely independent of the identity of the common ancestor. You don't have to know what was at the root of a phylogenetic tree to see that a group of organisms can be arranged in one.

The phylogenic tree is a joke. I thought they had recoginzed that and given up using it. First, you have no idea what the second, third, fourth, fifth, etc., life forms were. You starrt with a guess and not a very good one, and build on that guess and offer no evidence for HOW evolutions is possible. You admit you don't know what the first mammal was, so how can you in good consciene just make up something and say "see."

That's because no one says we did, can you please stop attacking this straw man?

Please don't tell me how to post. You consider it a strawman because you can't provide the evidence to support your faith. If it is to hot for you in the kitchen, get out of the kitchen and put me on ignore.
 
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mzungu

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frogman2x

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See, this is your problem - you reject evidence before you even actually see it. It doesn't matter what we present, you know it's wrong before you even look...and yet you still ask for it, anyway.

Over the years I have looked at hundreds of so called evidence but they have never offered any real biological evidence. Since you are so smart, why don't you go back to your link and post the biological evidence they presented. That will prove all of your snide remarks about me and you will be he hero of this debate.
And the minute people start to give you some advanced stuff, you run away, screaming about how it's not your 'pay grade'.[/quote]

Not true just another of your snide remarks. You need to tighten the training wheels on your bike. They are coming lose and I would hate for you to fall and and get a boo boo.

You're not interested in any honest debate; you've already made up your mind on this subject and you're not the least bit open to anything that goes against your notions.

An honest debate includes evidence and does not resort to insults. I have made up my mind on this subject and SO HAVE YOU, and you are not the lesat bit open to anything that goes against your faith in Darwin and his evantelists.
 
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mzungu

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An honest debate includes evidence and does not resort to insults. I have made up my mind on this subject and SO HAVE YOU, and you are not the lesat bit open to anything that goes against your faith in Darwin and his evantelists.
Anyone acting like a troll. Anyone who insults fellow posters. Anyone who simply refuses to learn. anyone who shows arrogance and looks down on people who obviously are more educated in the pertinent field. Simply is incapable of having an honest debate.

I now have you on my ignore list! :wave:
 
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frogman2x

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No one ever said they did.

Natural selection. Natural. What part of 'natural' do you not understand?

I understand natural. I don tunderstand how you can use the term when there is no evidence to support it.

And nature will select against them. They'll be less likely to breed. Eventually, there wil only be rabbits with stronger legs. Natural selection. Bam.

You just shot your self in the head: "There will only be rabbits."

They will ALWAYS be rabbits and their kids will be rabbits and thier grandkid will also be rabbits, all the way to eternity.

I'm guessing you (somehow) forgot the word 'me how' in this sentence. You do know you can edit posts after you've made them, right?

Yes and I know I need to doa better job on editing.


Why do all the fossils that scientists have labeled as 'transitional' not count as 'transitional fossils'? What is your definition of a 'transitional fossil', and how has it not been met?

Why do some well known evolutionisit say the evidence for transitional fossils is nsot adequate for prove evolution? Gould says the fossil record refutes gradualims, the mainstay of evolution for years.


No. You provide a definition. You clearly have some idea of what a transition is supposed to be, otherwise you couldn't (honestly) say we've never found one.

It is nsot what I say, I jusst parrot what others, including some evolutionist say.

So explain what you feel is and is not a transitional fossil. Actually give a criteria and stick to it like a man, instead of putting yourself in a position where you can move the goalposts at will.

Tell me where I have moved the goal post and I will answer your question. Man up yourself.
 
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frogman2x

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Anyone acting like a troll. Anyone who insults fellow posters. Anyone who simply refuses to learn. anyone who shows arrogance and looks down on people who obviously are more educated in the pertinent field. Simply is incapable of having an honest debate.

I now have you on my ignore list! :wave:

My prayers have been answered.
 
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Mr Strawberry

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My prayers have been answered.

I can just imagine it: "Please god, I want to be ignored." That must be why you post in the first place: an overriding desire to be ignored.

It does sort of go against the worldview I've noticed in most convinced religious people though, the worldview that thinks it entirely natural to regard the universe as having been created for the sole purpose of them having somewhere to live. In my experience, that sort of self-centred, self-important worldview doesn't square with wanting to be ignored usually, but there you go.
 
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lasthero

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I understand natural. I don tunderstand how you can use the term when there is no evidence to support it.
There's plenty of evidence to support natural selection. Things that are more fit to survive are going to be more likely to reproduce. What's to argue? How do you think dog breeding works, for crying out loud? If it wasn't possible to select for traits, breeding wouldn't even work.

They will ALWAYS be rabbits and their kids will be rabbits and thier grandkid will also be rabbits, all the way to eternity.

No one ever said any different. And this is natural selection, which you said there's no evidence for. That's all natural selection is.

Why do some well known evolutionisit say the evidence for transitional fossils is nsot adequate for prove evolution? Gould says the fossil record refutes gradualims, the mainstay of evolution for years.

Why don't you post the EXACT, FULL QUOTE where he says this, and then we'll discuss that, hm?

It is nsot what I say, I jusst parrot what others, including some evolutionist say.
And you can't even do that competently, most of the time. Even the quotes you copy and paste from other places are a garbled mess; how does that even happen?

Tell me where I have moved the goal post and I will answer your question. Man up yourself.

Are you or are you not going to state what you expect a transitional fossil to look like and what features it would have to have in order for you to accept? I am not going to leave the barn door open for you. You clearly don't actually mean you'll accept my definition of one, because I'm going by the accepted scientific definition, and by that definition, we've found plenty, whereas you say we've found none. So, clearly whatever definition you're going by, it's not the same one scientists in the relevant fields are using. So lay out your terms.
 
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lasthero

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An honest debate includes evidence and does not resort to insults.
You've been given evidence. You've refused it, like a spoiled brat. In some cases, you've dismissed it without even looking at it. It doesn't get much more immature than that.

and you are not the lesat bit open to anything that goes against your faith in Darwin and his evantelists.

I am open to such things, but thought-averse people such as yourself are rife in creationist circles, and have yet to provide anything that even come close to being convincing.

Also, I can't help but notice you completely skipped over Ollie's rather gracious and detailed explanation of how natural selection works, but I guess it's much easier to close your ears and feign stupidity, rather than actually run the risk of learning something and proving yourself wrong.
 
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frogman2x

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Nothing is proven in science.

Read a book. Get an education. Learn. Stop making a complete idiot of yourself.

The only one making a complete idiot out himself is the one who denies that science has proved there is more than one blood type. Even those with a 2 high 2 digit IQ, can see that.

Thanks for your continued insults. There may be some newcomers that don't know what kind of a person you are.

When you get your training wheels off, get back to me.
 
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