A Question for Creationists

[lasthero]

Even the Hindus recognize matter and energy are from God.

There is no such belief in Hinduism. In general, the universe is viewed as being eternal and cyclic.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Then what's this?

Because self-existent doesn't imply steady state.

 

[Elendur]

I don't know whether you missed to reply or if I missed your reply.
If the former, please reply, if the latter, I'd appreciate the help to find it.

Doveaman:
#565

frogman2x:
#536

 

[Naraoia]

Right but the DNA identifies them as the same species. The DNA from a chimp will identify it as a differen species.

You really don't know much about DNA, do you?

FYI, you are talking to biologists. We've seen DNA. We know what a gene looks like, we have a sense of how similar or different various species are. In short, you'll have to be a bit more specific than "DNA says this".

You don't seem to understand that DNA identifes "kinds" of the same species and it also identifies species that are a different "kind." It cleary tells us the cats and dogs are different kinds.

Does it, now? How does it do that?

You're not implying the universe is solid-state are you?

(Or is it static-state? whatever.)

Steady-state, I believe, and no, I wasn't implying that. I was merely pointing out the worthlessness of bare assertions.

Then what's this?

<mysterious voice> It is not what it seems. </mysterious voice>

 

[AV1611VET]

Steady-state,

Thank you ... I can't ever remember that for some reason.

<mysterious voice> It is not what it seems. </mysterious voice>

LOL

 

[twinc]

I don't think she was implying that AV. A solid state universe was debunked long ago. The universe is expanding and the empirical evidence is overwhelming.

it seems not for if it was/is then the shrinking sun would have been larger and closer and no life would have been possible millions of years ago - twinc

 

[biggles53]

I don’t see how that is.

Since I can’t imagine what the cause of a deity of pure energy could be I have no reason to believe God has a cause. If He does, we are yet to find out.

Aww...you spoilt it....

You have your cart well in front of your horse I'm afraid......before you can consider whether or not your god has a cause, you first have to demonstrate that it even exists...!

But regardless of that, if you assert that your god is without cause, simply because you "have no reason", then equally there is no reason that matter/energy has no cause...

It is said that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed. All physical forms of energy was transformed from God-energy.

That's yet another baseless assertion....

In the form of God-energy, sure. No argument there.

And another...

Because my God is the only God there is.

And another....

It’s a fact, not an assumption. God did it. Even the first humans knew that.

Humans have "known" many things that have turned out to be completely wrong....what level of arrogance permits you to claim that your version of god is any more likely to have existed than any of the other 3000 or so that man has invented over time...?

 

[AV1611VET]

But regardless of that, if you assert that your god is without cause, simply because you "have no reason", then equally there is no reason that matter/energy has no cause...

You're saying that, if we believe God is self-existent, then why don't we believe mass/energy could be self-existent as well?

What you're asking us to do though, is shift the object of our faith from God to the universe; and that's not gonna happen.

Let me ask you this:

Do you believe that mass/energy is self-existent?

If not, is it okay with you if we don't believe it, either?

 

[biggles53]

You're saying that, if we believe God is self-existent, then why don't we believe mass/energy could be self-existent as well?

No....I'm pointing out a very basic logical fallacy...you make the (unsubstantiated) claim that everything exists must have a cause. Having established that 'rule', you immediately violate it by then asserting that your deity is exempt...! It's a piece of self-serving special pleading.....

What you're asking us to do though, is shift the object of our faith from God to the universe; and that's not gonna happen.

No faith required....just a matter of moving from a view supported by zero evidence to one that is supported....but I'm sure that 'wall of ignorance' that you asked your god to help build for you will hold that at bay...

Let me ask you this:

Do you believe that mass/energy is self-existent?

The honest answer is 'I don't know'....

If not, is it okay with you if we don't believe it, either?

Last time I checked, you're free to believe whatever nonsense you dream up....

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Even the Hindus recognize matter and energy are from God. They are just confused about who God really is.

Both Democrats and Republicans recognize Obama exists, but some of them are confused about who Obama really is.

This kind of confusion happens all the time all over the place.

But of course you're not confused. You've found the answer to everything. It's everyone else who happens to think like you, but who differs on the specific theological details, that is confused.

 

[AV1611VET]

The honest answer is 'I don't know'....

Until you do, I'll go with God being self-existing and the universe not.

After all, the Bible says: IN THE BEGINNING, GOD...; not: IN THE BEGINNING, MASS/ENERGY...

 

[EternalDragon]

No....I'm pointing out a very basic logical fallacy...you make the (unsubstantiated) claim that everything exists must have a cause. Having established that 'rule', you immediately violate it by then asserting that your deity is exempt...! It's a piece of self-serving special pleading.....

You do understand that logically there had to be one causational event for the material things we see today or there would be an endless string of causes. We would also never have gotten to this present moment.

This first cause cannot itself by caused. It must be an infinite, eternally existing, uncaused force or being that set all other causes into motion.

That&#8217;s who God is by definition. He is eternal. He has always existed. He is uncaused. He has no beginning and no end. He is the cause of everything that exists.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You do understand that logically there had to be one causational event for the material things we see today or there would be an endless string of causes. We would also never have gotten to this present moment.

This first cause cannot itself by caused. It must be an infinite, eternally existing, uncaused force or being that set all other causes into motion.

That’s who God is by definition. He is eternal. He has always existed. He is uncaused. He has no beginning and no end. He is the cause of everything that exists.

"Why not save a step?"

 

[biggles53]

You do understand that logically there had to be one causational event for the material things we see today or there would be an endless string of causes. We would also never have gotten to this present moment.

Nonsense.....why could not matter/energy simply always been in existence...?

Given what we are beginning to discover about quantum mechanics, why could they not have formed spontaneously from 'nothing'...?

There....2 extra logical possibilities without thinking for more than 30 seconds......I'm sure we could come up with many more if we tried.....

This first cause cannot itself by caused. It must be an infinite, eternally existing, uncaused force or being that set all other causes into motion.

Why...? Think again about quantum mechanics...like most people blinded by faith, you necessarily restrict your thinking to ONLY those outcomes which suit your purposes.....

That’s who God is by definition. He is eternal. He has always existed. He is uncaused. He has no beginning and no end. He is the cause of everything that exists.

More unfounded assertions.....you're quite good at those aren't you......?

 

[SkyWriting]

Nonsense.....why could not matter/energy simply always been in existence?

There is nothing too seriously wrong with that idea. It just doesn't match well with what we call "reality". In the "reality" that we know, every result has a cause and nothing exists without a cause. Alternate realities may be different.

Given what we are beginning to discover about quantum mechanics, why could they not have formed spontaneously from 'nothing'...?

Quantum mechanics really gives us bits that appear in and out of our known world of physics. Yet they are still coming from another place. They still occurred on one side or the other.

Think again about quantum mechanics...like most people blinded by faith, you necessarily restrict your thinking to ONLY those outcomes which suit your purposes.....

That is what all people do. For example, it suits your purposes to think "they" are deceived and you are not.

Think You're Good at Telling Fact From Fiction? | Brain Games | National Geographic Channel

 

[SkyWriting]

You do understand that logically there had to be one causational event for the material things we see today or there would be an endless string of causes. We would also never have gotten to this present moment.

This first cause cannot itself by caused. It must be an infinite, eternally existing, uncaused force or being that set all other causes into motion.

That&#8217;s who God is by definition. He is eternal. He has always existed. He is uncaused. He has no beginning and no end. He is the cause of everything that exists.

I've come to a different understanding. God is not exactly "eternal."
We are not able to imagine infinite in both directions.
He exists outside of our time constraints. "Eternal" is a close approximation though.
I don't think time actually started until the Fall of Man.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

There is nothing too seriously wrong with that idea. It just doesn't match well with what we call "reality". In the "reality" that we know, every result has a cause and nothing exists without a cause. Alternate realities may be different.

In the reality that we know, we don't tend to observe supernatural causes either, much less complex, immaterial, unembodied, intelligent agents.

 

[lasthero]

Yet they are still coming from another place.

And where is this 'another place'?

 

[AV1611VET]

In the reality that we know, we don't tend to observe supernatural causes either, much less complex, immaterial, unembodied, intelligent agents.

That's because science is myopic.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That's because science is myopic.

It's myopic because it deals with reality?