A question for Christians

[b&wpac4]

All philosophical arguments aside, we know that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure, that He fulfilled numerous specific prophecies written and preserved hundreds of years before His life, that He died on a cross, and that He was reported to have risen from the dead and interacted with men and women who were willing to suffer horribly and die for this testimony...

Yea people, do some research.

I have done the research. The only things we know is that, yes, early Christians were willing to die for their faith. So were Jews, Muslims, etc. Does someone willing to die for a belief make it true?

 

[seashale76]

I have done the research. The only things we know is that, yes, early Christians were willing to die for their faith. So were Jews, Muslims, etc. Does someone willing to die for a belief make it true?

Only in the case of Christ. However, that is a faith issue.

 

[b&wpac4]

Only in the case of Christ. However, that is a faith issue.

Are you speaking of Jesus himself or early Christians?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Are you speaking of Jesus himself or early Christians?

How ironic one can say "both"... Regardless, the context of martyrdom is not the same in Christianity and Islam. History is the witness of it.

 

[seashale76]

Are you speaking of Jesus himself or early Christians?

Both. However, in the case of Christ- He was fully God and fully man- the Word of God.


I would also qualify and say not just early Christians were willing to die for their faith. There were more Christian martyrs in the 20th century than at any other time in history.

 

[b&wpac4]

How ironic one can say "both"... Regardless, the context of martyrdom is not the same in Christianity and Islam. History is the witness of it.

and how many Jews have chosen death instead of conversion?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

and how many Jews have chosen death instead of conversion?

I don't know, 6-7 million? One Jew I definitely know was a man named Paul. So were others Peter, Andrew, Bartholomew... etc...

 

[b&wpac4]

I don't know, 6-7 million? One Jew I definitely know was a man named Paul. So were others Peter, Andrew, Bartholomew... etc...

The fact is, anybody willing to die for a belief does it because they believe it. It does not make the belief true. That is simply faulty logic. It's an argument that sounds great on an emotional level, but fails on a logical level.

Mormons were willing to die for their belief, yet you wouldn't concede that they are correct.

Arguments should be based in logic. Discussing the prophecies claimed fulfilled would do this, but we can't do that here.

I was simply pointing out a logical flaw.

 

[Gardenia]

I am sorry but this is not logical at all. I mean if these god's had the "supposed" similar characteristics that Jesus had, why wouldn't they provide a way for everyone to know about them? Because JESUS did. We have the Bible. I cannot go to Wal-Mart or anything other store and find some other book that was provided so everyone could know it. These god's cannot explain the origins of all things like God can and still be consistent.

I dunno about the other Deities listed, but you most certainly can go down to the book store and pick up books on Egyptian mythology, many of their sacred texts included. (Many of which still stand on tomb and temple walls, for that matter.) Of course, neither Osiris nor Horus are so similar to Jesus as many claim..
However, if you can't see the obvious failure of your argument even beyond the mythology section.. well.. I dunno what wal-mart has for books, but again if you think you can't go into a book store and pick up copies of the Bhagabad Gita (got mine at Borders!), the Quran, or any other number of holy texts.. well, what book stores are you going to? So, since I can find all these texts.. means their religions are real, right?

 

[seashale76]

and how many Jews have chosen death instead of conversion?

And how many Jews killed Christians? That one's still going on- and they're killing Muslims too. See where this little tactic you're employing gets us? Nowhere, that's what. All this proves is that there have been more than a few people now and throughout history who let anger and hatred take over- and in the case of Christians- let the serious sin of murder imperil their very souls.

 

[b&wpac4]

And how many Jews killed Christians? That one's still going on- and they're killing Muslims too. See where this little tactic you're employing gets us? Nowhere, that's what. All this proves is that there have been more than a few people now and throughout history who let anger and hatred take over- and in the case of Christians- let the serious sin of murder imperil their very souls.

You miss the point. You claim someone dying for a belief makes it true, but ONLY in the case of Christians? That's a logical flaw.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

The fact is, anybody willing to die for a belief does it because they believe it. It does not make the belief true. That is simply faulty logic. It's an argument that sounds great on an emotional level, but fails on a logical level.

Mormons were willing to die for their belief, yet you wouldn't concede that they are correct.

Arguments should be based in logic. Discussing the prophecies claimed fulfilled would do this, but we can't do that here.

I was simply pointing out a logical flaw.

We simply are not Christians because St. Paul or St. Peter died for their beliefs. We are Christians because what have done and taught us before their martyrdom.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

You claim someone dying for a belief makes it true, but ONLY in the case of Christians? That's a logical flaw.

This has not been the sole claim, please let us not derail the topic.

 

[b&wpac4]

We simply are not Christians because St. Paul or St. Peter died for their beliefs. We are Christians because what have done and taught us before their martyrdom.

Fine, and that is great. All I was saying is that using the argument that people died for the faith so it is true is flawed. THAT IS ALL.

I am very happy that Christianity holds meaning for you and helps you improve your life. That is the important part.

 

[seashale76]

You miss the point. You claim someone dying for a belief makes it true, but ONLY in the case of Christians? That's a logical flaw.

I don't believe I missed your point at all. There is only one truth, which is only found in Christ. So, if a Christian were to die for their faith- then they are dying for the truth. If someone believes in something that isn't true and dies for that belief, they are only dying in vain.

 

[Supreme]

are you saying that if it's from the bible, it's good?

What? When did I say it was good? I simply made a statement and used Biblical scripture to back it up. When did I give my personal opinions?

 

[JesuSlavex]

Don't forget the regular attacks to St. Paul. How ignorant one can be by simply not acknowledging that Apostles of Christ still lived and existed during St. Paul's time and this "evil" Paul would have gotten his bottom handed to him in a platter during Council of Jerusalem due to his corrupt teachings that never talk about this Jesus??... St. John the Theologian somehow managed to battle the heresy of gnosticism but those gullible Christians man, they all fell for it when it came to St. Paul. Somehow St. Paul managed to suppress all these Apostles and their testimonies and created a myth so he could too be a martyr for it... Wow what a research what a conclusion.

Will Durant
Pulitzer Prize winner for General Nonfiction in 1968 and the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1977
"Paul created a theology of which none but the vaguest warrants can be found in the words of Christ. . . . Through these interpretations Paul could neglect the actual life and sayings of Jesus, which he had not directly known. . . . Paul replaced conduct with creed as the test of virtue. It was a tragic change."

Robert Frost
Winner of the Pulitzer prize for poetry in 1924,1931,1937 and 1943
"Paul he's in the Bible too. He is the fellow who theologized Christ almost out of Christianity. Look out for him."

James Baldwin
Most noted black American author of this century
"The real architect of the Christian church was not the disreputable, sunbaked Hebrew (Jesus Christ) who gave it its name but rather the mercilessly fanatical and self-righteous Paul."

Thomas Jefferson
Third president of the United States and author of the Declaration of Independence
"Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."

Mahatma Gandhi
The prophet of nonviolence who won freedom from England for India
"I draw a great distinction between the Sermon on the Mount of Jesus and the Letters of Paul. Paul's Letters are a graft on Christ's teachings, Paul's own gloss apart from Christ's own experience."

Albert Schweitzer
Winner of the 1952 Nobel Peace Prize, called "one of the greatest Christians of his time,"
"Paul. . . . did not desire to know Christ. . . . Paul shows us with what complete indifference the earthly life of Jesus was regarded. . . . What is the significance for our faith and for our religious life, the fact that the Gospel of Paul is different from the Gospel of Jesus?. . . . The attitude which Paul himself takes up towards the Gospel of Jesus is that he does not repeat it in the words of Jesus, and does not appeal to its authority. . . . The fateful thing is that the Greek, the Catholic, and the Protestant theologies all contain the Gospel of Paul in a form which does not continue the Gospel of Jesus, but displaces it."

I can go on and on and on and on.............and on. But I'll take your word over theres as how you are much more highly regarded and honored than they.

Furthermore, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Essenes record that a man who had studied with them for a three year period, had betrayed them, and was spreading 'lies' about their faith. This person is simply referred to in these writings as "The Liar". Most scholars who have studied these scrolls agree Paul could be the only one they are referring to. Numerous scriptures back this up. The Bible and several other historical manuscripts record that there was much disagreement between Paul and some of the disciples and leaders of the early church. Even James, Jesus's brother, rebuked Paul for his teachings and commanded him to cleanse himself according to the law of Moses..

In all Paul wrote (Up for debate as its unprovable) 14 of the books that make up the New Testament. Kind of makes you wonder.

This looks to be another case of skeptics citing a pre-Christian religion, assuming that the post-Christian form of the religion (which we know about) has remained faithful to the pre-Christian form of the religion (which we know nothing about), and speculating that the similarities between the religion and Christianity are due to Christianity borrowing from the religion in question.

Ok, lets entertain that for a few minutes. I'm completly up for throwing out the Mithras angle. But you have to explain the 12 or so other Gods that came well before christianity who shared the same traits and requirements as illegitimate. AND explain why pagan holidays share the same timeframes as the christian calender. And just as a note, the pagans have been celebrating those holidays long before Yahweh stepped foot on this earth.

In todays church Jesus is a brand like Coke or Pepsi. Jesus is not present day christianity. Paul is.

I don't believe I missed your point at all. There is only one truth, which is only found in Christ. So, if a Christian were to die for their faith- then they are dying for the truth. If someone believes in something that isn't true and dies for that belief, they are only dying in vain.

Thats ok, let it be your truth. Christ died for the remission of sin. You believe that to be true just as much as someone else would believe that a cat ran off a bad spirit in their home and both of you would die for it. And thats the unfortunate part of this conversation is that neither arguement is provable in this plane of existance. I think that arguement just needs to die, it'll go on forever.

 

[WingsOfEagles07]

I dunno about the other Deities listed, but you most certainly can go down to the book store and pick up books on Egyptian mythology, many of their sacred texts included. (Many of which still stand on tomb and temple walls, for that matter.) Of course, neither Osiris nor Horus are so similar to Jesus as many claim..
However, if you can't see the obvious failure of your argument even beyond the mythology section.. well.. I dunno what wal-mart has for books, but again if you think you can't go into a book store and pick up copies of the Bhagabad Gita (got mine at Borders!), the Quran, or any other number of holy texts.. well, what book stores are you going to? So, since I can find all these texts.. means their religions are real, right?

haha, No...I go to borders, and I find books that "people" have written "about" the religion(s). Not "a" book from the actual religion for people to live by and not be inconsistent. Because all other god(s) and religion(s) are inconsistent.

 

[JesuSlavex]

Are you saying that the notion doesnt apply to the Bible as well?

 

[Gardenia]

haha, No...I go to borders, and I find books that "people" have written "about" the religion(s). Not "a" book from the actual religion for people to live by and not be inconsistent. Because all other god(s) and religion(s) are inconsistent.

Again, you can find the holy texts of many other religions, not just books written about said religions. The argument that you can go into a book store and buy a Bible, so Christianity is from the one true God makes absolutely no sense. Now, if you find the other books inconsistent, well that's your own opinion - and to be frank has pretty much nothing to do with where you can buy these books. Many people disagree with how you find other religions' texts, and there are those who disagree that your Bible is from God and consistent.

The location of a book, the number of these books/the ease of getting one, the number of followers a religion has, none of them are proof of a true religion.