A Question for Catholics

[MarkRohfrietsch]

so who is the new ADAM?



how do you figure?

what is the reference to this? text please

As Lukaris answered below, just because we take scripture at face value does not mean that we don't recognize the symbolism contained within that Scripture.

Jesus Christ the new Adam:

Last Adam - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Virgin Mary the new Eve:

New Eve - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Great reply!

 

[Adventist Dissident]

As Lukaris answered below, just because we take scripture at face value does not mean that we don't recognize the symbolism contained within that Scripture.

Great reply!

so Jesus is the NEW Adam & Mary is the NEW Eve. Anyone see a problem with that?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

so Jesus is the NEW Adam & Mary is the NEW Eve. Anyone see a problem with that?

Not I.

 

[tall73]

But I say again, although there are many bible references to Jesus Christ conquering Satan, there are none which say that Mary does that.

Genesis 3:14-15 is an obvious Mariological prophecy. To accept it does not require rejecting Hebrews 2:14, nor vice versa. We do not delete verses from Scripture because they disagree with our preferred interpretation or appear to clash with another verse, as such an approach goes beyond eisegesis.

A possible text to bridge the gap.

Romans 16:19-20​

19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. (NKJV)​

​

The Catholic and Orthodox commentators have not denied that it is ultimately Jesus who destroys the ancient serpent, the devil. But there is a broader sense in which that is a shared victory, in that we are included in Christ. And they would see Mary playing into that particularly, given her role.

Here the recipients of the letter to the Romans are also included, with God crushing satan under the feet of the believers, who are in Christ.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Not I.

Adam and Eve were husband and wife. Mary and Jesus are Mother and Son. Adam and Eve were the image of God on earth. the mother child relationship is not the image of God on earth.

 

[Valletta]

Adam and Eve were husband and wife. Mary and Jesus are Mother and Son. Adam and Eve were the image of God on earth. the mother child relationship is not the image of God on earth.

By your logic women are not an acceptable image of God on earth.

 

[tall73]

By your logic women are not an acceptable image of God on earth.

That doesn't follow from what he said.

 

[tall73]

By your logic women are not an acceptable image of God on earth.

He sees Adam and Eve as both in the image of God.

And he would agree with Jesus as the new Adam, based on the various texts. Through His obedience He brought life to all men in Him, whereas Adam, through his disobedience, brought death to all men in him.

Where I think you are talking past each other is that he is noting Adam and Eve as being one flesh, joined together by God as husband and wife, given the command to be fruitful and multiply, and that Eve was mother of all the living. And the one flesh, husband and wife relationship would not be present in Jesus and Mary's relationship.

You might need to clarify that the new Adam/New Eve relationship either

a. does not include that
b. includes that in some very different way.

Beyond that, the Mary being the new Eve argument is that Mary was obedient, and through that obedience, participated in God's plan to bring salvation.

But it goes beyond that in that it claims sinlessness for Mary, which he does not accept. Mary, in the new Eve view, is seen as an archetype of obedient humanity, to the extent of being without sin.

And the conversation is complicated by different hermeneutics. The first step to any agreement would have to be to look at whether the texts present in Scripture rule out Mary's sinlessness, or not. Because a hermeneutic that values tradition, seeing Scripture as part of that, should still not contradict Scripture.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

By your logic women are not an acceptable image of God on earth.

I am saying that the relationship you are promoting with Mary as the new EVE could be seen by some as insectuous and not the proper representation of God on earth, as was done in the Garden with Adam and Eve. the scripture says the chruch is the bride and the new Jerusalem is like a bride.

 

[concretecamper]

A possible text to bridge the gap.

Romans 16:19-20​

19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. (NKJV)​

​

The Catholic and Orthodox commentators have not denied that it is ultimately Jesus who destroys the ancient serpent, the devil. But there is a broader sense in which that is a shared victory, in that we are included in Christ. And they would see Mary playing into that particularly, given her role.

Here the recipients of the letter to the Romans are also included, with God crushing satan under the feet of the believers, who are in Christ.

Rather than trying to thread the needle, why not listen to the Church Fathers at Trent.

"If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema."

The Vulgate is clear and Authoritative for the Universal Church.

The Latin Vulgate says Mary crushes the head of Satan. That should be the end of it, especially for Catholics.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Rather than trying to thread the needle, why not listen to the Church Fathers at Trent.

"If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema."

The Vulgate is clear and Authoritative for the Universal Church.

The Latin Vulgate says Mary crushes the head of Satan. That should be the end of it, especially for Catholics.

source please,

 

[concretecamper]

source please,

4th Session of The Council of Trent.

 

[tall73]

Rather than trying to thread the needle, why not listen to the Church Fathers at Trent.

"If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema."

The Vulgate is clear and Authoritative for the Universal Church.

The Latin Vulgate says Mary crushes the head of Satan. That should be the end of it, especially for Catholics.

Discussing various Scriptures which show multiple entities described crushing satan under foot, through God's agency is on topic.

If you are back to discussing, please provide the missing specific references in your earlier article.

 

[concretecamper]

Discussing various Scriptures which show multiple entities described crushing satan under foot, through God's agency is on topic.

If you are back to discussing, please provide the missing specific references in your earlier article.

First, I'm not doing your homework. The references were in the article by Dr Taylor Marshall.

Second, the only reference YOU NEED is Trent. Either believe what Trent says, or be a cafeteria Catholic, your choice.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

4th Session of The Council of Trent

The fourth session of the Council of Trent took place on April 8, 1546,
so long after the cannon was established.

So this is Extra Biblical and not by the apostles

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Rather than trying to thread the needle, why not listen to the Church Fathers at Trent.

"If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema."

The Vulgate is clear and Authoritative for the Universal Church.

The Latin Vulgate says Mary crushes the head of Satan. That should be the end of it, especially for Catholics.

see this is one of those ADDED Catholic Things....It is above and beyond scripture. And cannot be accepted by the rest of the Church. Notice the Orthodox, who also claim Peter, do not teach this.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Second, the only reference YOU NEED is Trent. Either believe what Trent says, or be a cafeteria Catholic, your choice.

I do not believe, I choose to reject. While studying with Catholics have made it clear she is more important than we protestants make her, Luke 1:48, Prov 31:28 " future generation will bless you" she is not that important, she is not co savior.

 

[RileyG]

Being the Mother of God is certainly worthy of veneration, isn't it?

Mary being a sinner is a relatively new idea. I prefer to stick with what was taught from the beginning of the Church.

James says the prayer of the righteous is powerful. Mary's prayer is powerful.

Yes, Salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Well said, QFTW.

 

[RileyG]

On the cross, the Lord said to John to behold “your mother “( John 19:25-27).She is a mother, ever Virgin to all of us and we are to honor our mother and father ( Exodus 20:12).

Yup. In Jewish tradition, the children would have taken care of the widows. Considering there was no one to take care of Mary in her elderly years, Jesus told St. John to please take care of her. Thus, she was a virgin, eternally.

 

[Valletta]

I do not believe, I choose to reject. While studying with Catholics have made it clear she is more important than we protestants make her, Luke 1:48, Prov 31:28 " future generation will bless you" she is not that important, she is not co savior.

Catholics believe that Mary needed a savior--Jesus.