A Question for Catholics

[o_mlly]

This is why she is so blessed: she openly and humbly submitted to God's will to be conceived through works of the Holy Spirit.

OK, if you mean, as Catholics believe, that God's blessing always precedes and enables all good acts. We cannot earn God's blessing.

 

[tz620q]

Gen 3:14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Douay Rheims

There is a lot of early artwork with Mary with her foot on the head of the serpent; but it seems that Jerome made a mistake in his translation of the text for Gen 3:15 in regards to the sex of who crushes the head of the serpent. In the Hebrew, the verb for crush is singular masculine and so most modern translations have pointed the crushing back to Christ, which fits better with the rest of the text of the Bible. This does not destroy Catholic's veneration of Mary as the perfect disciple; but we cannot follow Christ without seeking the truth.

 

[concretecamper]

There is a lot of early artwork with Mary with her foot on the head of the serpent; but it seems that Jerome made a mistake in his translation of the text for Gen 3:15 in regards to the sex of who crushes the head of the serpent. In the Hebrew, the verb for crush is singular masculine and so most modern translations have pointed the crushing back to Christ, which fits better with the rest of the text of the Bible. This does not destroy Catholic's veneration of Mary as the perfect disciple; but we cannot follow Christ without seeking the truth.

Thank you for the speculation.

 

[tall73]

Who Will Crush the Serpent's Head?

Genesis 3:15 is one of the most famous passages in Scripture, since it offers the first, veiled prophecy of the coming of the Messiah. But confusion results fro...

www.catholic.com

This Catholic resource acknowledges it was likely a copy error:

The Douay-Rheims follows a textual variant found in many early Fathers and some editions of the Vulgate, though not the original. Jerome followed the Hebrew of this text in his edition of the Vulgate. The variant probably originated as a copyist’s error, when a scribe failed to note that the subject of the verse had shifted from the woman to the seed of the woman.​

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Today, people notice this variant because the expression found in the Douay-Rheims has been the basis of popular Catholic art showing a serene Mary standing over a crushed serpent. Her representation as Our Lady of Grace usually depicts her in this way.​

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Christians have recognized since the first century that the woman and her seed of Genesis 3:15 do not simply stand for Eve and one of her righteous sons, such as Abel or Seth. They prophetically foreshadow Mary and Jesus. The first half of the verse (speaking of the enmity between the serpent and the woman) has been applied to Mary, and so the second half (speaking of the crushed head and heel striking) also has been applied to Mary.​

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Though the variant that uses “she” and “her” probably came from a copyist’s error, the idea it expresses is true. There is a sense in which Mary crushed the serpent’s head and in which she was struck at by the serpent. She didn’t do these things directly, but indirectly, through her Son. It was Jesus who directly crushed the serpent’s head from the cross and Jesus whom the serpent directly struck on the cross. Yet Mary cooperated in these events.​

 

[concretecamper]

There is a lot of early artwork with Mary with her foot on the head of the serpent; but it seems that Jerome made a mistake in his translation of the text for Gen 3:15 in regards to the sex of who crushes the head of the serpent. In the Hebrew, the verb for crush is singular masculine and so most modern translations have pointed the crushing back to Christ, which fits better with the rest of the text of the Bible. This does not destroy Catholic's veneration of Mary as the perfect disciple; but we cannot follow Christ without seeking the truth.

Who Will Crush the Serpent's Head?

Genesis 3:15 is one of the most famous passages in Scripture, since it offers the first, veiled prophecy of the coming of the Messiah. But confusion results fro...

www.catholic.com

This Catholic resource acknowledges it was likely a copy error:

The Douay-Rheims follows a textual variant found in many early Fathers and some editions of the Vulgate, though not the original. Jerome followed the Hebrew of this text in his edition of the Vulgate. The variant probably originated as a copyist’s error, when a scribe failed to note that the subject of the verse had shifted from the woman to the seed of the woman.​

​

​

Today, people notice this variant because the expression found in the Douay-Rheims has been the basis of popular Catholic art showing a serene Mary standing over a crushed serpent. Her representation as Our Lady of Grace usually depicts her in this way.​

​

​

Christians have recognized since the first century that the woman and her seed of Genesis 3:15 do not simply stand for Eve and one of her righteous sons, such as Abel or Seth. They prophetically foreshadow Mary and Jesus. The first half of the verse (speaking of the enmity between the serpent and the woman) has been applied to Mary, and so the second half (speaking of the crushed head and heel striking) also has been applied to Mary.​

​

​

Though the variant that uses “she” and “her” probably came from a copyist’s error, the idea it expresses is true. There is a sense in which Mary crushed the serpent’s head and in which she was struck at by the serpent. She didn’t do these things directly, but indirectly, through her Son. It was Jesus who directly crushed the serpent’s head from the cross and Jesus whom the serpent directly struck on the cross. Yet Mary cooperated in these events.​

Thank you too for your speculation.

 

[tall73]

Thank you too for your speculation.

The speculation of Catholic Answers.

 

[David Lamb]

great, you have your answer, Genesis Chapter 3 tells us.

But as I said, the verse in Genesis 3 does not seem to have a pronoun in the Hebrew for either "he" or "she". That's why I said that perhaps somebody who knows Hebrew could tell us whether there is anything in the original Hebrew of the verse to tell us whether the crusher of the serpent's head is male or female. I can say that I have looked at Genesis 3:15 in 20 different English translations of the bible, and all say "he" for the crusher of the serpent.

 

[concretecamper]

The speculation of Catholic Answers.

Ok?

 

[concretecamper]

But as I said, the verse in Genesis 3 does not seem to have a pronoun in the Hebrew for either "he" or "she". That's why I said that perhaps somebody who knows Hebrew could tell us whether there is anything in the original Hebrew of the verse to tell us whether the crusher of the serpent's head is male or female. I can say that I have looked at Genesis 3:15 in 20 different English translations of the bible, and all say "he" for the crusher of the serpent.

Who Crushes Satan's Head in Genesis 3:15? (Mary or Jesus?) - Taylor Marshall

Genesis 3:15 is the called the Proto-Evangelium (or “First-Gospel”). In this passage, God promises to defeat Satan through the operation of “the woman” and “her seed.” Tradition identifies the “the woman” as the Blessed Virgin Mary and “the seed” as our Lord Jesus Christ. Historically, there has...

taylormarshall.com

 

[tall73]

Who Crushes Satan's Head in Genesis 3:15? (Mary or Jesus?) - Taylor Marshall

Genesis 3:15 is the called the Proto-Evangelium (or “First-Gospel”). In this passage, God promises to defeat Satan through the operation of “the woman” and “her seed.” Tradition identifies the “the woman” as the Blessed Virgin Mary and “the seed” as our Lord Jesus Christ. Historically, there has...

taylormarshall.com

I am intrigued with the sources mentioned in the article, as they go beyond Latin Christian sources, and make it more likely it is reflecting a different Hebrew stream in the text. Unfortunately, they are mentioned, but not spelled out as to specific manuscripts, or references. Do you have a list of the actual sources, especially the two referenced Hebrew manuscripts?

It is not clear why the author did not put the details. Some of the comments speculate on the references for the external witness quotations, but did not seem to come up with any info on the Hebrew manuscripts.

 

[David Lamb]

Who Crushes Satan's Head in Genesis 3:15? (Mary or Jesus?) - Taylor Marshall

Genesis 3:15 is the called the Proto-Evangelium (or “First-Gospel”). In this passage, God promises to defeat Satan through the operation of “the woman” and “her seed.” Tradition identifies the “the woman” as the Blessed Virgin Mary and “the seed” as our Lord Jesus Christ. Historically, there has...

taylormarshall.com

I have read the link, and it seems to underline what I have been saying about it not being clear from the Hebrew whether it should be "he" or "she". But I say again, although there are many bible references to Jesus Christ conquering Satan, there are none which say that Mary does that.

 

[Lost4words]

Luther didn't venerate Mary in the same way that Catholics do by praying to her and believing she has the power to intercede on their behalf even to this day. I should have specified what I meant by veneration. I was implying the way that Catholics venerate Mother Mary.

Martin Luther did not believe Mary was sinless. She is certainly to be honored for being selected to bear the perfect Son of God, and she herself admits this to be an incredible blessing. She found favor with God because she was ready to accept His will.

It is interesting you bring up Immaculate Conception because that is a Catholic doctrine and a Catholic interpretation of what Martin Luther said about Mary. You do not find this teaching anywhere in the LCMS Lutheran church

You need to do some proper research my friend...

 

[concretecamper]

But I say again, although there are many bible references to Jesus Christ conquering Satan, there are none which say that Mary does that.

You seem to be uncomfortable since you felt the need to change "crushing head" to "conquering". No one here is saying Jesus doesn't/didn't conquer Satan. I guess we are through now.

 

[David Lamb]

You seem to be uncomfortable since you felt the need to change "crushing head" to "conquering". No one here is saying Jesus doesn't/didn't conquer Satan. I guess we are through now.

Please don't read more into my using the word "conquering". I probably used it because that is what is meant by crushing the head. Thew heel being crushed doesn't destroy; the head being crushed does. I am not at all uncomfortable with using "crush the serpent's head". Sorry for any unintentional confusion.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You need to do some proper research my friend...

While there still is much discussion regarding Luther and how he saw Mary, there is no question that he did hold her in high esteem, and retained the feasts and festivals of Mary that were supported by Scripture. Luther never stopped studying; the theology of Martin Luther at the time of the posting of the 95 Theses evolved greatly over time and coalesced along with other Lutheran theologians into that reflected in the unaltered 1580 edition of the Book of Concord.

BTW, he was buried with his rosary, and at one time wrote that only those with strong faith should use the Rosary as those of weaker faith might be lead to superstition. He did not prohibit or personally reject its use.

In LCC/LCMS our Calendar retains the following feast days: St. Mary, Mother of our Lord (Assumption/Dormation); Annunciation; Visitation; Purification and maybe a few more. Many Lutheran Churches use blue paraments and vestments for Advent season, blue is the colour associated with the Blessed Virgin.

Martin Luther composed this to use at the end of the Daily office as a substitute for some of the less biblical Marion hymns and prayers:

Luther's 'Evangelical Praise of the Mother of God'​

O Blessed Virgin, Mother of God, what great comfort God has shown us in you, by so graciously regarding your unworthiness and low estate. This encourages us to believe that henceforth He will not despise us poor and lowly ones, but graciously regard us also, according to your example.

A good article can be found here:

Luther’s Love for St. Mary, Queen of Heaven - Lutheran Reformation

by Deac. Betsy Karkan It’s probably not what you think. In his devotional writings on the Magnificat, Luther carefully outlines how we should and should not honor this “Most Blessed Virgin Mother.” Luther neither wants to give her false attributes or idolatrous devotion, nor does he want to...

lutheranreformation.org

In our Liturgy for the Daily Office - Vespers, we sing the Magnificat (there are actually multiple settings of this hymn in Lutheran Service Book; one of the oldest Christian Hymns and is found in the first chapter of St. Luke's Gospel:

My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God, my Savior;
For He has regarded
the lowliness of His handmaiden.
For behold, from this day
all generations will call me blessed.
For the Mighty One has done great things to me,
and holy is His name;
And His mercy is on those who fear Him
from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with his arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has cast down the mighty from their thrones
and has exalted the lowly.
He has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped his servant Israel in remembrance of his mercy
as He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever.

Here are a couple settings:

From the Book of Concord:

On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother's womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and nevertheless remained a virgin. ~Solid Declaration VIII:24​

Semper Virgo!​

 

[Adventist Dissident]

We venerate her for many reasons: she's the Mother of God; she's the new Eve;

so who is the new ADAM?

she's the Mother of all believers;

she's the Woman clothed with the Sun and has a crown of 12 stars;

how do you figure?

she's a powerful intercessor with God who will crush the serpents head under her heel;

what is the reference to this? text please

she's Immaculate; she loved Jesus more than any other person who lived and she wants to help all her other children love Jesus more also.
These are some of the reasons why we venerate her. There are more.
Why pray to Mary? She's a powerful intercessor.

 

[Lukaris]

Jesus Christ the new Adam:

Last Adam - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Virgin Mary the new Eve:

New Eve - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[The Liturgist]

I was answering your post where you said, "But the Woman crushes the serpent's head, that we know for sure." I asked how we can know that for sure. I said that we read in the bible that it is Jesus Who defeats Satan, not Mary.

Genesis 3:14-15 is an obvious Mariological prophecy. To accept it does not require rejecting Hebrews 2:14, nor vice versa. We do not delete verses from Scripture because they disagree with our preferred interpretation or appear to clash with another verse, as such an approach goes beyond eisegesis.

 

[The Liturgist]

Hello Catholics,
Why do you venerate Mary the mother of Jesus? She was a sinner and fell short of the glory of God like you and me. What is the significance of praying to Mary? Salvation is a gift through Jesus Christ alone, yes?

Which Lutheran denomination are you a member of?

Are you aware that Martin Luther prayed a non-intercessory version of the Ave Maria?

According to my friend @MarkRohfrietsch it lacked the “pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death” but contained everything else.

 

[The Liturgist]

While there still is much discussion regarding Luther and how he saw Mary, there is no question that he did hold her in high esteem, and retained the feasts and festivals of Mary that were supported by Scripture. Luther never stopped studying; the theology of Martin Luther at the time of the posting of the 95 Theses evolved greatly over time and coalesced along with other Lutheran theologians into that reflected in the unaltered 1580 edition of the Book of Concord.

BTW, he was buried with his rosary, and at one time wrote that only those with strong faith should use the Rosary as those of weaker faith might be lead to superstition. He did not prohibit or personally reject its use.

In LCC/LCMS our Calendar retains the following feast days: St. Mary, Mother of our Lord (Assumption/Dormation); Annunciation; Visitation; Purification and maybe a few more. Many Lutheran Churches use blue paraments and vestments for Advent season, blue is the colour associated with the Blessed Virgin.

Martin Luther composed this to use at the end of the Daily office as a substitute for some of the less biblical Marion hymns and prayers:

Luther's 'Evangelical Praise of the Mother of God'​

O Blessed Virgin, Mother of God, what great comfort God has shown us in you, by so graciously regarding your unworthiness and low estate. This encourages us to believe that henceforth He will not despise us poor and lowly ones, but graciously regard us also, according to your example.

A good article can be found here:

Luther’s Love for St. Mary, Queen of Heaven - Lutheran Reformation

by Deac. Betsy Karkan It’s probably not what you think. In his devotional writings on the Magnificat, Luther carefully outlines how we should and should not honor this “Most Blessed Virgin Mother.” Luther neither wants to give her false attributes or idolatrous devotion, nor does he want to...

lutheranreformation.org

In our Liturgy for the Daily Office - Vespers, we sing the Magnificat (there are actually multiple settings of this hymn in Lutheran Service Book; one of the oldest Christian Hymns and is found in the first chapter of St. Luke's Gospel:

My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God, my Savior;
For He has regarded
the lowliness of His handmaiden.
For behold, from this day
all generations will call me blessed.
For the Mighty One has done great things to me,
and holy is His name;
And His mercy is on those who fear Him
from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with his arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has cast down the mighty from their thrones
and has exalted the lowly.
He has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped his servant Israel in remembrance of his mercy
as He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever.

Here are a couple settings:

From the Book of Concord:

On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother's womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and nevertheless remained a virgin. ~Solid Declaration VIII:24​

Semper Virgo!​

Ah, you beat me to it with some good Lutheran orthodoxy.