• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
3,558
1,953
76
Paignton
✟80,625.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
There is a great deal not recorded in the Scriptures that was common knowledge within the communities.
That is probably true. But the point is, if it is not in Scripture, we cannot say that Joseph did have a wife before marrying Mary. We know that God, the ultimate Author of the bible, has revealed in it all that He wants us to know, all that is needed. Going beyond it in a matter like a supposed previous marriage of Joseph is mere speculation.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,816
14,271
60
Sydney, Straya
✟1,454,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
That is probably true. But the point is, if it is not in Scripture, we cannot say that Joseph did have a wife before marrying Mary. We know that God, the ultimate Author of the bible, has revealed in it all that He wants us to know, all that is needed. Going beyond it in a matter like a supposed previous marriage of Joseph is mere speculation.
The Church existed long before any of the New Testament was written, and the brothers and sisters of Christ were among the many who spread the Gospel throughout Israel and beyond. There was no need to write any further details of them in the Gospels because anyone who met them could see with their own eyes how they were related in age to Mary.
Paul states that the Church, the household of God, is the pillar and ground of truth, and that same Church which defended the truth of the divinity and humanity of Jesus against heretical teaching, also maintained that Joseph had other children before his betrothal to Mary, that Cleopas was his brother and Salome, the mother of James and John, was one of his daughters. The Church remembers the names of many of the people who are not named but are mentioned in the Gospels, such as the woman at the well, the penitent thief and the centurion at Christ's crucifixion. The Church in Armenia and the Church in Ethiopia were never under the influence of Rome and yet they both teach that Mary was mother only to Jesus.
The relationship described in the Gospels between Jesus and His brothers is not consistent with Jesus being the eldest. They don't show Him the respect that would be due to Him, especially after Joseph had passed away, but instead try to control Him, treating Him as they would a celebrity younger brother. Jesus putting His mother in the care of the Apostle John is also consistent with Him being her only child.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
3,558
1,953
76
Paignton
✟80,625.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The Church existed long before any of the New Testament was written, and the brothers and sisters of Christ were among the many who spread the Gospel throughout Israel and beyond. There was no need to write any further details of them in the Gospels because anyone who met them could see with their own eyes how they were related in age to Mary.
Paul states that the Church, the household of God, is the pillar and ground of truth, and that same Church which defended the truth of the divinity and humanity of Jesus against heretical teaching, also maintained that Joseph had other children before his betrothal to Mary, that Cleopas was his brother and Salome, the mother of James and John, was one of his daughters. The Church remembers the names of many of the people who are not named but are mentioned in the Gospels, such as the woman at the well, the penitent thief and the centurion at Christ's crucifixion. The Church in Armenia and the Church in Ethiopia were never under the influence of Rome and yet they both teach that Mary was mother only to Jesus.
The relationship described in the Gospels between Jesus and His brothers is not consistent with Jesus being the eldest. They don't show Him the respect that would be due to Him, especially after Joseph had passed away, but instead try to control Him, treating Him as they would a celebrity younger brother. Jesus putting His mother in the care of the Apostle John is also consistent with Him being her only child.
Yet even when writing to those New Testament churches in Gentile cities, where they wouldn't have known things like whether Mary had children after Jesus was born or whether Joseph had been married previously, the writers make no mention of these things. Regarding respect, the brothers at that stage did not believe in Jesus - any respect they would have had for Him otherwise was obliterated by that. Also, we're not told when Joseph died, despite the so-called Cherry Tree Carol, which starts: "Joseph was an old man, An old man was he; He married sweet Mary,The queen of Galilee." The brothers' non-belief may well have been the reason Jesus tasked John with the care of Mary.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,816
14,271
60
Sydney, Straya
✟1,454,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Yet even when writing to those New Testament churches in Gentile cities, where they wouldn't have known things like whether Mary had children after Jesus was born or whether Joseph had been married previously, the writers make no mention of these things.
As it did not pertain to the Gospel, there is no reason why the Apostles would feel the need to write about them. In any case, the Church has retained that knowledge.
Regarding respect, the brothers at that stage did not believe in Jesus - any respect they would have had for Him otherwise was obliterated by that.
My experience says otherwise. My own big brother wasn't perfect like Jesus would have been, but he has always had my respect.
If they had grown up in the same household as Jesus, it would have been apparent that their big brother was special, whereas if they were already adults with families of their own when Jesus was born, they would have had much less exposure to Jesus' uniqueness. It then makes perfect sense why they would not have believed in Him.
Also, we're not told when Joseph died, despite the so-called Cherry Tree Carol, which starts: "Joseph was an old man, An old man was he; He married sweet Mary,The queen of Galilee."
Irrelevant. Its a given that Joseph was no longer alive when Jesus began His ministry.
The brothers' non-belief may well have been the reason Jesus tasked John with the care of Mary.
Yet they all became believers after His resurrection, which Jesus would have forknown. If His brothers were children of Mary then it would have been a huge slight against them to put their mother in the care of a non-family member. Joseph is described as a righteous man and Mary was obedient to God, yet apparently they raised their children so terribly that Jesus refused to leave Mary in their care.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0
Jun 26, 2003
8,942
1,556
Visit site
✟303,720.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
You need to repeat that three times while wearing the shoes of the wicked witch of the west, and clicking your heels together.
Oh, you made a funny?

Mockery does not become you. Christianity is not a joke. Your post is a distraction put on for show, that does not address the point of the argument.

Can you tell me where that style of interaction is taught in Matthew 5-7 or in 1 Cor 13?

Surely an orthodox Christian would not behave in an unorthodox manner
 
Upvote 0

jas3

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2023
1,259
901
The South
✟90,088.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Your post is a distraction put on for show, that does not address the point of the argument.
To be fair, you made an assertion, not an argument, and the rest of your post was an unrelated polemic against Orthodoxy in a thread where you should be united with the Orthodox in arguing for the legitimacy of Marian veneration as part of the deposit of faith. There wasn't much there for anyone to respond to, as far as it relates to the thread's topic.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: prodromos
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,816
14,271
60
Sydney, Straya
✟1,454,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Oh, you made a funny?
I gve your off topic post the treatment it deserved.
Can you tell me where that style of interaction is taught in Matthew 5-7 or in 1 Cor 13?
How about 1 Kings 18:27?
Surely an orthodox Christian would not behave in an unorthodox manner
I would much prefer making light of your polemical attack on the Orthodox Church than waste my time arguing with you.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,701
6,118
Visit site
✟1,056,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The proto gospel of James indicates that Joseph was married prior to betrothal to Mary. However, Jerome disagrees with this. He indicates that Joseph was likewise a virgin:


But as we do not deny what is written, so we do reject what is not written. We believe that God was born of the Virgin, because we read it. That Mary was married after she brought forth, we do not believe, because we do not read it. Nor do we say this to condemn marriage, for virginity itself is the fruit of marriage; but because when we are dealing with saints we must not judge rashly. If we adopt possibility as the standard of judgment, we might maintain that Joseph had several wives because Abraham had, and so had Jacob, and that the Lord's brethren were the issue of those wives, an invention which some hold with a rashness which springs from audacity not from piety. You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin.​
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
7,409
2,883
PA
✟336,726.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The proto gospel of James indicates that Joseph was married prior to betrothal to Mary. However, Jerome disagrees with this. He indicates that Joseph was likewise a virgin:
That is a tradition I subscribe to also.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,816
14,271
60
Sydney, Straya
✟1,454,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
The proto gospel of James indicates that Joseph was married prior to betrothal to Mary. However, Jerome disagrees with this. He indicates that Joseph was likewise a virgin:


But as we do not deny what is written, so we do reject what is not written. We believe that God was born of the Virgin, because we read it. That Mary was married after she brought forth, we do not believe, because we do not read it. Nor do we say this to condemn marriage, for virginity itself is the fruit of marriage; but because when we are dealing with saints we must not judge rashly. If we adopt possibility as the standard of judgment, we might maintain that Joseph had several wives because Abraham had, and so had Jacob, and that the Lord's brethren were the issue of those wives, an invention which some hold with a rashness which springs from audacity not from piety. You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin.​
Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox icons of the "Flight to Egypt" will often have a young James accompanying Joseph and Mary as they take the infant Jesus to Egypt to escape Herod.
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
3,558
1,953
76
Paignton
✟80,625.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
As it did not pertain to the Gospel, there is no reason why the Apostles would feel the need to write about them. In any case, the Church has retained that knowledge.
...and perhaps no reason for it being a topic of discussion here:)
My experience says otherwise. My own big brother wasn't perfect like Jesus would have been, but he has always had my respect.
If they had grown up in the same household as Jesus, it would have been apparent that their big brother was special, whereas if they were already adults with families of their own when Jesus was born, they would have had much less exposure to Jesus' uniqueness. It then makes perfect sense why they would not have believed in Him.

Irrelevant. Its a given that Joseph was no longer alive when Jesus began His ministry.
"Given" by whom? The bible just doesn't say.
Yet they all became believers after His resurrection, which Jesus would have forknown. If His brothers were children of Mary then it would have been a huge slight against them to put their mother in the care of a non-family member. Joseph is described as a righteous man and Mary was obedient to God, yet apparently they raised their children so terribly that Jesus refused to leave Mary in their care.
But He committed His mother to John's care whilst He was on the cross, not after the resurrection.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,816
14,271
60
Sydney, Straya
✟1,454,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
"Given" by whom? The bible just doesn't say.
You can't be serious. Joseph is a central figure in the nativity narrative, then gets no mention at all after Jesus begins his ministry. When Jesus returns to the place of His upbringing, His brothers are mentioned by name but no mention of Joseph. How else do you imagine this might be explained?
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
3,558
1,953
76
Paignton
✟80,625.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You can't be serious. Joseph is a central figure in the nativity narrative, then gets no mention at all after Jesus begins his ministry. When Jesus returns to the place of His upbringing, His brothers are mentioned by name but no mention of Joseph. How else do you imagine this might be explained?
But you yourself have said that there are some things Scripture does not mention. For instance, you wrote: "As it did not pertain to the Gospel, there is no reason why the Apostles would feel the need to write about them. In any case, the Church has retained that knowledge."
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,816
14,271
60
Sydney, Straya
✟1,454,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
But you yourself have said that there are some things Scripture does not mention. For instance, you wrote: "As it did not pertain to the Gospel, there is no reason why the Apostles would feel the need to write about them. In any case, the Church has retained that knowledge."
Are you arguing that Joseph was still alive?
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,701
6,118
Visit site
✟1,056,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Commentary of St. John Chrysostom on the Epistle to the Galatians.

Ver. 19. “But other of the Apostles saw I none, save James,38 the Lord’s brother.”

See what great friends he was with Peter especially; on his account he left his home, and with him he tarried. This I frequently repeat, and desire you to remember, that no one, when he hears what this Apostle seems to have spoken against Peter, may conceive a suspicion of him. He premises this, that when he says, “I resisted Peter,” no one may suppose that these words imply enmity and contention; for he honored and loved his person more than all and took this journey for his sake only, not for any of the others. “But other of the Apostles saw I none, save James.” “I saw him merely, I did not learn from him,” he means. But observe how honorably he mentions him, he says not “James” merely, but adds this illustrious title, so free is he from all envy. Had he only wished to point out whom he meant, he might have shown this by another appellation, and called him the son of Cleophas, as the Evangelist does.39 But as he considered that he had a share in the august titles of the Apostles, he exalts himself by honoring James; and this he does by calling him “the Lord’s brother,” although he was not by birth His brother, but only so reputed. Yet this did not deter him from giving the title; and in many other instances he displays towards all the Apostles that noble disposition, which beseemed him.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Jun 26, 2003
8,942
1,556
Visit site
✟303,720.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
To be fair, you made an assertion, not an argument, and the rest of your post was an unrelated polemic against Orthodoxy in a thread where you should be united with the Orthodox in arguing for the legitimacy of Marian veneration as part of the deposit of faith. There wasn't much there for anyone to respond to, as far as it relates to the thread's topic.
Granted, but Our Lord commands us how to behave. If we don’t follow His commands then the salt has lost its savor.
So you do good to those that are good to you and mock your enemies? Do not even heathens do the same?

If there was not much to respond to, then why do it ?
 
Upvote 0