A Question for Catholics

[tall73]

Origen's statement makes reference to the The Protoevangelium of James

Infancy Gospel of James, or Protevangelium (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Infancy Gospel of James, or Protevangelium (Roberts-Donaldson translation). On Early Christian Writings.

www.earlychristianwritings.com

The following makes clear that the protoevangelium is not history as such, and has a number of errors when compared with Scripture, yet argues it has some spiritual essence correct.

The Feast of the Entrance and the Protoevangelium of James

Much of the hymnography adorning our Feast of the Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple causes the raising of eyebrows—talk about Mary being escorted into the Holy of Holies by Zechariah the high-priest and remaining there, being miraculously fed by an angel. How is it that any female was...

www.oca.org

As Origen referenced, the book indicates that Joseph was previously married and had children:

Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl.​

 

[prodromos]

Doctrine can develop over time without changing the scriptures to say something contrary to previous Church teaching

That's a claim Catholics make. The Orthodox Church rejects such a notion. Doctrine has been defended. We hold fast to the faith once handed down by the Apostles.

 

[David Lamb]

Yes, it is a counter assumption that has no scriptural reference. It comes from our 21st century concept of the nuclear family.
We can have this perspective as a first world nation. The infrastructure is in place where society can reasonably support nuclear families

In ancient times, the population was much lower and families stayed together in a traditional family format. Many sons were considered arrows in a man’s quiver because that meant more sons to work for the good of the family
It was almost impossible for one to “go it alone” or with a wife and immediate family.

To do so, one would have to be a great hunter or fisherman, else know how to farm, but even with a farm, one needs workers to care for it, hence sons as arrows in his quiver

The alternative is slavery. We think slavery to be evil. In ancient times, I look at myself. I can’t hunt. I can’t farm. Man, I am going to stave to death. I can’t do jack on my own.

Wait some dude has a big farm down the road. I don’t know how to farm but I can offer my body to labor and I can take orders. I will have a place to sleep and something to eat. I offer myself to indentured servitude

Oh no tangent alert Sorry

My point is that the concept of a family was different in 30AD than 2024. The term for brother includes cousin because they were all part of the same family, maybe the same household. It does not imply that these men were direct decedents of either Mary or Joseph

Have you ever heard of a Spanish family moving into a single family home in the USA and the family size is like 20 people ? Not just mother father kids, but aunts uncles cousins all in the same house ?

I admit that it is my understanding and I just say I don’t know what really happened, but it is another possibility
I err on the side of Mary’s perpetual virginity for the greater glory of God for reasons I have already explained.

Yes I know that families were much more extended back them. Even so, the New Testament does use a word for "cousin." It is "suggenes" and is used for Elizabeth:

And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. (Luke 1:36)

A completely different word is used for the brothers and sisters of Jesus.

 

[Valletta]

That's a claim Catholics make. The Orthodox Church rejects such a notion. Doctrine has been defended. We hold fast to the faith once handed down by the Apostles.

Catholics hold fast to the deposit of the faith, that faith that was handed down through the Apostles. We can come to a deeper understanding of that faith as time passes.

 

[David Lamb]

As Joseph is the legal father of Jesus, all his children are legally brothers and sisters of Jesus.

That may well be so, but we aren't told in the bible that Joseph had a wife before Mary, nor are we told that by that supposed wife he had children.

 

[David Lamb]

They were betrothed, not married. Betrothal is still legally binding, to separate would require divorce.

They were betrothed first, then married. The angel said to Joseph:

“Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.” (Mt 1:20 NKJV)

 

[Valletta]

That may well be so, but we aren't told in the bible that Joseph had a wife before Mary, nor are we told that by that supposed wife he had children.

Indeed, not even one word by Joseph is recorded in the Bible. The first surviving text that I know of that mentions that Mary was a perpetual virgin and Joseph was previously married is the Protoevangelium of James, probably written around the middle of the second century.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Vulgate is clear and Authoritative for the Universal Church.

Your own church has never required members of the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic churches to use the Vulgate, or regarded it as officially authoritative over the Eastern churches moreso than the historic Greek, Syriac and other texts.

 

[The Liturgist]

That's a claim Catholics make. The Orthodox Church rejects such a notion. Doctrine has been defended. We hold fast to the faith once handed down by the Apostles.

Amen.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

That's a claim Catholics make. The Orthodox Church rejects such a notion. Doctrine has been defended. We hold fast to the faith once handed down by the Apostles.

Develop is not the same as change. We hold the faith in once delivered to the saints.
If you have held the faith once delivered to the saints, you would not have left the chair of Peter.
Schism comes from pride, not from God.

Personally I do not want the Catholic Church to be true. My flesh says those old men got it all wrong and made the world worse for their efforts. My assessment is meaningless
Orthodox thought comes from Mary’s fiat. Be it done to me according to THY word. Not MY will but THINE be done. The eastern thinking is not orthodox, though they claim to be so. They say Peter should be first among equals not primary
They do not want to share power, that is pride not humility

The Eastern Schism was not a movement arising in all the East; it was not a quarrel between two large bodies; it was essentially the rebellion of one see, Constantinople, which by the emperor's favor had already acquired such influence that it was able unhappily to drag the other patriarchs into schism with it.

It is Erastianism that claims that the state has power over the Church. Constantine moved the capital of the empire from Rome to Constantinople.

A low ranking bishop in Constantinople got it in his head that he is now Bishop of the imperial capital so now he is primary. Political conditions bolstered his argument in that the Roman Empire crumbled and Byzantium remained, but those conditions were political not ecclesial

Erastian thinking still spread to others. Henry VIII made himself ruler of the Church in England and rebelled against the chair of Peter

I do not see the Spirit of God in any of this, which is why I turn to His word. Thou art Peter and on this rock I will build MY Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail
Eastern Orthodox have maintained consistent doctrine but what of the See? The gates of hell have prevailed. Constantinople is now Istanbul and Hagia Sophia is now a mosque. The Church of England remains but the gates of hell have removed much of Christian doctrine

God has mercy. He knows that there are many reasons for His sheep to be scattered, and the call of God’s love goes out to all.
Jesus Himself told us of invincible ignorance when He said there would be those that blasphemed the Son of Man, yet will be forgiven.
It is only blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that will not be forgiven.
Once I saw that it was my flesh that rebelled against the Pope, I could do nothing but repent in dust and ashes. I invite others to do the same.
Now that I know, I cannot claim invincible ignorance and will be judged more strictly.
I don’t care what people think of me, I just want them to know God

It is when we act in humility that the grace of God comes, and the peace that passes understanding is known

 

[concretecamper]

Your own church has never required members of the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic churches to use the Vulgate, or regarded it as officially authoritative over the Eastern churches moreso than the historic Greek, Syriac and other texts.

Whatever point you are trying to make, my point is still accurate.

The Vulgate is clear and Authoritative for the Universal Church.

Trent:

If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema.

 

[prodromos]

That may well be so, but we aren't told in the bible that Joseph had a wife before Mary, nor are we told that by that supposed wife he had children.

There is a great deal not recorded in the Scriptures that was common knowledge within the communities.

 

[prodromos]

Whatever point you are trying to make, my point is still accurate.

The Vulgate is clear and Authoritative for the Universal Church.

Trent:

If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema.

Doesn't this strike you as more than a little schizophrenic?

 

[prodromos]

Develop is not the same as change.

You need to repeat that three times while wearing the shoes of the wicked witch of the west, and clicking your heels together.

 

[concretecamper]

Doesn't this strike you as more than a little schizophrenic?

Not at all, in fact, it is very direct and written with Authority.

 

[prodromos]

Not at all, in fact, it is very direct and written with Authority.

And then not in any way enforced for the Eastern Catholics.

 

[concretecamper]

And then not in any way enforced for the Eastern Catholics.

It's Authoritative for all those Eastern Catholics in communion with His Church.

What's your point?

 

[prodromos]

It's Authoritative for all those Eastern Catholics in communion with His Church.

Who never spoke or read Latin.

What's your point?

I'm fairly certain that others reading are able to discern my point.

 

[concretecamper]

Who never spoke or read Latin.

So what.

 

[tall73]

Clement of Alexandria also potentially refers to the proto gospel of James, or at least a similar tradition regarding the idea that Mary remained a virgin while giving birth (which he agrees with), but admits that many have held to the opposite view, even to his own time.

CHURCH FATHERS: The Stromata (Clement of Alexandria)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

But, as appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been in the puerperal state, although she was not. For some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to be a virgin.​