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A Question for Catholics

What is the pillar and ground of truth?

  • The Church headquartered in Rome

    Votes: 8 42.1%
  • The Eastern Orthodox Church

    Votes: 3 15.8%
  • The Reformed Church

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other Churches

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • All of the above (i. e. all branches of Christianity)

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • None of the above

    Votes: 6 31.6%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 1 5.3%

  • Total voters
    19

The Liturgist

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So the Catholic Catechism is not so long because a bunch of extrabiblical rules

Indeed. Neither is it long because of Biblical rules. Let us review, however, the alleged extra-biblical points, noting by the way that all churches, even Calvinist churches that adopt the so-called Regulative Principle of Worship, have extrabiblical attributes (I say this as a Congregationalist minister, now an adherent of Patristic-Arminian soteriology, but previously a Calvinist, and previously with one of the last traditional reformed congregations in the UCC before leaving when my senior pastor retired and spending a decade pursuing my other great love, kernel programming, while learning about Anglicanism and Eastern Christianity, and returning to the business two years ago).

(no contraception,

Contraception is in fact scripturally prohibited, along with abortion. Only procreative sex and holy celibacy are allowed.

celibacy in the priesthood,

Celibacy in the Western Rite dates back at least to the early fourth century, but it is specific to the ancient Western Rites of the Catholic Church, namely, the Roman, Ambrosian, Lyonaise, Bragan, Mozarabic, and also the rites specific to some of the religious orders, most notably the Carmelite, Carthusian, Dominican and Norbertine, as well as defunct regional rites such as the Gallican, Beneventan, Colonensis, and the old English rites of Sarum, York, Durham and Hereford, to name a few. However, it may surprise you to learn that the Catholic Church has a very large number of married priests, including most eparchial priests in the Byzantine Rite churches in Eastern Europe and the Levant, such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, the Romanian Greek Catholic Church, the Russian Catholic Church, and the Melkite Church.

The same is also true of churches using Oriental Orthodox rites, such as the Armenian Catholic Church (which was the largest before the Turkish genocide; now it is tiny, with most surviving Armenians members of the Armenian Apostolic (Orthodox) Church), the Coptic Catholic Church, the Syriac Catholic Church and the Chaldean Catholic Church. I am not sure if Maronite Catholics have married clergy or not. Historically, to avoid tension with the celibate Roman Rite majority, Eastern Catholic priests in North America and elsewhere in the diaspora were not usually permitted to be married, and this resulted in large scale migrations of Ruthenian Greek Catholics to the Russian Orthodox Church, led by St. Alexis Toth of Wilkes-Barre, with most of these parishes winding up in the Orthodox Church in America, and the Greek Orthodox Church, which created the American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Diocese.

Additionally, there are now married Western Rite priests serving in the Roman Church, in the Anglican Rite Ordinariates, including Ordinaries, who exercise powers previously reserved for bishops, who are always celibate in the ancient churches (whether Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or the Church of the East; the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox bishops are usually monks, and the same was true of the Church of the East, until the genocide waged against it by the Muslim warlord Tamerlane killed almost all of its members, which had stretched from Aleppo to Socotra, Kerala, Tibet and Mongolia; after Tamerlane only those in the Fertile Crescent and the Malabar Coast survived, and the monastic tradition died off. The Church of the East was for many years larger in terms of territory and membership than the Roman Church.

and reading the Apocryphal books among them) were added to it. Where is this stuff in the Bible?

That depends on the edition, but usually the Deuterocanonicals can be found in the middle of the Bible, which is fitting considering they represent several of the most beautiful and important of the sacred scriptures. I personally accept the entire Ethiopian Old Testament Canon, and 1 Enoch and Jubilees usually go towards the front of the Ge’ez Bible. I do not know whether the Ethiopian Catholic Church accepts these or not.

The deuterocanonicals, or protocanonicals as I prefer to regard them, since the terms apoceypha and deuterocanonical are not used in the Orthodox Churches in reference to these sacred scriptures, are also used in Protestantism; they are included in any complete edition of the KJV and NRSV, among other translations, and are read by Anglicans, who are the largest Protestant communion in the world, for edification (article 6 of the 39 articles of religion, contrary to assertions made by another member, does not deny the divine inspiration of these books, and the Episcopal Church and most continuing Anglo Catholic Churches have deprecated the 39 articles, and indeed in the Episcopal Church the pericope “Honor a physician” from Ecclesiasticus (The Wisdom of Sirach) is one of the appointed lessons on the feast of St. Luke.

The Lutherans for their part have an open canon, and I believe @MarkRohfrietsch mentioned to me some devotional and other use of some of these books. Finally, John Calvin regarded Baruch as divinely inspired protocanon, even if this opinion is unfortunately not shared by most Calvinist churches.

Is the Catholic Catechism the only document that they get prayers to saints, confession boxes, ban on married priests having sex, and refusal to accept the marriages of people who committed adultery or had divorced previous spouses?

Firstly, no. The Catholic Catechism only explains these doctrines, which are defined elsewhere, for example, in the ecumenical councils, the code of canon law, the liturgical books, the bulls, decretals, encyclicals, motus propria, and other directives of the Popes, as well as decisions promulgated by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Congregation Propaganda Fide (its old name, I have no idea what it is called now), the Congregation for the Clergy, the Congregation for Divine Worship, and other decision making entities in the Vatican, as well as rulings and encyclicals of individual bishops, the leaders and provincial heads of religious orders, and acts of regional episcopal conferences and synods. The same is true of every other catechism except perhaps the Anglican catechisms, since they are contained in the Book of Common Prayer, and the Anglican church takes the principle of lex orandi, lex credendi to the maximum degree, so that the primaey guide to Anglican doctrine is the BCP.

Now, regarding your complaints on alleged extrabiblical doctrines, I would note that nothing in Sceipture precludes seeking the intercession of those alive in Christ, which would be the Holy Apostles, Martyrs, Confessors, Evangelists, Ascetics, Fools for Christ, and pious, godfearing Christians who represent, to quote the Book of Common Prayer, all sorts and conditions of men. And I would note Lutherans including Martin Luther pray the original version of the Hail Mary, and high church Anglicans in the Episcopal and Continuing Anglican churches seek the intercession of the saints. And this practice is supported in Scripture, contrary to what the 39 Articles say, for example, in Revelation 8:3-4, and in 2 Maccabees. For this reason, the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 upheld the veneration of icons and of the saints, and in 843, the young Michael III became the Emperor of Constantinople, and his mother, the Dowager Empress Regent St. Theodora, put an end to Iconoclasm, an event celebrated every year by the Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Rite Catholics as the Triumph of Orthodoxy, on the first Sunday in Lent.

Regarding confessionals, these have become rare, but the practice of auricular confession is ancient, and is available in many Protestant churches including the Lutheran and Anglican churches. Martin Luther even considered it sacramental. In addition, the same principle that applies to auricular confession also applies to general confession, which is the power of ministers to forgive and retain sins, well documented in the Gospel of Matthew and elsewhere.

To my knowledge, the Roman church will marry someone who has not previously been married but had an affair with a married person, however, I could be wrong. I prefer the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox theology of marriage, where one can be married up to two times.

When I say extrabiblical, I am including the Aprocrypha because it is not proven to be God's Word like the 66 books in everyone's Bible.

According to what you consider canonical scripture, the 66 books found in most Bibles cannot be proven to be God’s Word either; indeed, John 1:1-18 and the ending of Luke proves that they are not; rather, God’s Word is Jesus Christ, and the Old and New Testaments describe Him, and the economy of Salvation facilitated by His incarnation which is prophesized, summarized and exegeted. However, Scripture lacks a table of contents, so only references between scriptural books definitively establish canonicity, hence the Epistle of Jude establishes the canonicity of 1 Enoch; otherwise, it is up to the authority of the Christian Churches, including the Church of Rome, to decide what is and is not canonical scripture.

Since nearly all of your criticisms are also applicable to Anglicanism, Lutheranism, the Old Catholic Union of Utrecht, the Moravian church, the United Methodist Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the United Church of Christ, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Polish National Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church, perhaps you might give the Roman Catholics a break, since people are constantly criticizing them, and it gets kind of boring.
 
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Panevino

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No, it's not. That's evident from the reading of that same sentence of Scripture. What Christ is saying is that he's expecting the people of God (the "household") to uphold and defend the faith in the years to come.
1tim3:1-16 discuses the leadership of the church, incl bishops and deacons.
The letter is written by Paul who uses the title apostle for himself (1Tim1:1) and refers to Timothy as his “son” who he appoints the mission/charge of consistent doctrine at Ephesus and abiding there.

The context of the church / pillar being described is clearly hierarchical. This is the context of the “..church of God..”(1tim3:15) be it the local church or the broader catholicity of it.
And when Paul is unsure himself or can’t resolve agreement, he “takes it to the church” which in the instance of acts 15 is the hierarchy extending to the apostles.

Having said all of that, no issue of course with your view that all believers are called to stand for the truth / be a pillar. This however is within the umbrella of a functioning hierarchy / teaching office where the guardrails are set.
 
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Panevino

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So the Catholic Catechism is not so long because a bunch of extrabiblical rules (no contraception, celibacy in the priesthood, and reading the Apocryphal books among them) were added to it. Where is this stuff in the Bible? Is the Catholic Catechism the only document that they get prayers to saints, confession boxes, ban on married priests having sex, and refusal to accept the marriages of people who committed adultery or had divorced previous spouses?

When I say extrabiblical, I am including the Aprocrypha because it is not proven to be God's Word like the 66 books in everyone's Bible.
Lots of topics raised here all of which are great aspects of the Catholic Church.
Confession boxes are very often an intense space of repentance and tears , where people literally cry asking God for forgiveness and repent / resolve to change.
There is a great little church in the middle of my city and there are at least two masses each weekday and it always has people there in adoration before the Eucharist praying or sitting in line to go to confession. You really should rethink feeling overly negative about confession boxes even if you disagree with the method / theology of confession. it’s a profound box for Catholics and as a result their families (and as a result our city). we also at times confess face to face with the priest inside or outside of the “box” too (I mean not anonymously)

re the apocrypha I assume you mean the deuterocanon. Without being arrogant I feel it’s kind of the Protestants burden not Catholics re this. The Catholic Bible clearly existed before the Protestant one, and the early church fathers referred to them / quoted them often as scripture. If there is 1 or 2 church fathers that have a differing view it’s fine as the church has its mechanism to resolve these queries and it has.
 
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A_Thinker

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According to John 1:42, the VERY FIRST THING Jesus said to Peter was “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas (which means rock).”
Please explain why Jesus changed Simon's name to "rock" the first time they met.
(Hint - read Matt 16:18).
Paul taught that the Apostles and Prophets were all "rocks" (foundation stones, actually) ... with Jesus, Himself being the chief Cornerstone.

Ephesians 2

19 "Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, ... "

And Peter wrote of Christ being the "rock" that was rejected, ... while it was yet established by God as the Church's cornerstone. Peter, in the same passage, speak of all believers as "living stones" ...

1 Peter 2

5 "Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore it is said in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, and precious. And he that shall believe in him, shall not be confounded.

7 To you therefore that believe, he is precious, but to them that believe not, ... the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner."
 
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GodLovesCats

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To my knowledge, the Roman church will marry someone who has not previously been married but had an affair with a married person, however, I could be wrong. I prefer the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox theology of marriage, where one can be married up to two times.

What if a spouse dies? I see nothing wrong with marrying a third time if that happens.
 
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Panevino

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The Liturgist said:
To my knowledge, the Roman church will marry someone who has not previously been married but had an affair with a married person, however, I could be wrong. I prefer the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox theology of marriage, where one can be married up to two times
that’s sounds correct to me. That would be a sin however to be reconciled.



What if a spouse dies? I see nothing wrong with marrying a third time if that happens.
Sorry to interrupt your chat , but in either the Catholic or Eastern/oriental church the death of one spouse would effectively be the end of the marriage. As heartbreaking as that is.. “death do us part”. Meaning free to marry another, though can imagine not much appetite in that scenario
 
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GodLovesCats

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Sorry to interrupt your chat, but in either the Catholic or Eastern/oriental church the death of one spouse would effectively be the end of the marriage. As heartbreaking as that is, “death do us part.” Meaning free to marry another, though can imagine not much appetite in that scenario

"Death do us part" is a promise neither of them will commit adultery and they will not get divorced. There is nothing but physical death that can end their marriage. And when it does, why isn't the survivor free to marry another believer?
 
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Panevino

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"Death do us part" is a promise neither of them will commit adultery and they will not get divorced. There is nothing but physical death that can end their marriage. And when it does, why isn't the survivor free to marry another believer?
They are, that’s what I confirmed sorry if I was unclear.
 
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Albion

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1tim3:1-16 discuses the leadership of the church, incl bishops and deacons.
There are a number of ideas treated in those sixteen verses, but the one in question here is this one:

15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

The church, properly understood, is not one of the denominations that formed later and it's certainly not just the Apostles. It's the whole family of believers.
 
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Buzzard3

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Paul taught that the Apostles and Prophets were all "rocks" (foundation stones, actually) ... with Jesus, Himself being the chief Cornerstone.

Ephesians 2

19 "Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, ... "

And Peter wrote of Christ being the "rock" that was rejected, ... while it was yet established by God as the Church's cornerstone. Peter, in the same passage, speak of all believers as "living stones" ...

1 Peter 2

5 "Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore it is said in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, and precious. And he that shall believe in him, shall not be confounded.

7 To you therefore that believe, he is precious, but to them that believe not, ... the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner."
That doesn't explain why SIMON was the only apostle Jesus offically gave a new name.
 
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The Liturgist

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What if a spouse dies? I see nothing wrong with marrying a third time if that happens.

Sorry, one can be remarried two times in the Orthodox Church, possibly more if a marriage happened before one was baptized or chrismated into the Orthodox Church. To allow a third marriage would require approval from a bishop, but in the event of exceptional hardship it might be granted. Of course, all subsequent marriages are performed using a liturgy that has a less joyful and more penitential character, and ROCOR at least maintains the custom of the Ecclesiastical Court, which must review all divorces and which will penances spouses who caused the divorce through infidelity, neglect or physical and emotional abuse. So even though the Orthodox Church is superficially less strict than the Catholic Church, scratch the surface and it is severe, and I like it that way, because it is a hospital for souls, and there can be no pussyfooting around when it comes to the medicine of salvation. Rates of apostasy from the Orthodox Church are very low, and it is growing, in comparison to my former stomping ground, the UCC, and the Episcopal Church, which are tragically shrinking in part due to a lack of doctrinal hardness.

Note the Orthodox does not do “church discipline” like some Calvinist groups such as 9Marks. They only guard the sacraments to make sure people do not procure damnation on themselves. Individual Roman Catholic priests I have heard are not supposed to repulse people from the Eucharist under ordinary circumstances, whereas Anglican priests can repulse a “notorius evil liver” and Russian Orthodox priests can require that someone attend confession a certain number of times per month in order to partake.
 
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The Liturgist

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They are, that’s what I confirmed sorry if I was unclear.

In the Roman Catholic Church, yes. The Eastern Orthodox perspective is that anyone wanting to be married a fourth time, after divorce or bereavement, barring extraordinary circumstances, is doing something wrong.

This is why I suggest that people give you all a break and go after the traditional liturgical Congregationalism of the King’s Weigh House variety, of which we see echoes at Park Street Church and in the CCCC, or the Anglican Communion, or the confessional Lutherans, or the Orthodox churches, if they must go after anyone, and I will defend these churches just as I defend Roman Catholicism, because aside from the issue of Papal supremacy, everything they objects to in the Catholic Church is also present in these other traditional denominations.

My sole focus as far as Roman Catholicism is concerned is to do whatever I can to help the Traditional Latin Mass communities survive Traditiones Custodes and pray for a new Pope who will restore Ecclesia Dei and Summorum Pontificum.
 
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Panevino

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There are a number of ideas treated in those sixteen verses, but the one in question here is this one:

15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

The church, properly understood, is not one of the denominations that formed later and it's certainly not just the Apostles. It's the whole family of believers.
No Of course not just the apostles, I did mention that.
But it’s not the church without them also
The church clearly understood by Paul in this letter has a leadership structure incl a bishop who are responsible for doctrine (ie truth).

it would be inconsistent with Paul and this letter to think that the “pillar of truth” is ambiguous thing that is not fundamentally linked to the teaching office responsible for that truth (ie shepherds), while at the same time including the sheep.

maybe this helps
“….
sensus fidelium (sense of the faithful) is, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "the supernatural appreciation of faith on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."….”
 
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Panevino

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In the Roman Catholic Church, yes. The Eastern Orthodox perspective is that anyone wanting to be married a fourth time, after divorce or bereavement, barring extraordinary circumstances, is doing something wrong.
ah i did not know that. getting married 4 times does feel odd (even with previous bereavements or invalid marriages) and I would of thought it would be prudent to atleast pause and consider / discuss things for a moment, Ie not rush into things. I can’t imagine that it happens often (life is pretty short)
This is why I suggest that people give you all a break and go after the traditional liturgical Congregationalism of the King’s Weigh House variety, of which we see echoes at Park Street Church and in the CCCC, or the Anglican Communion, or the confessional Lutherans, or the Orthodox churches, if they must go after anyone, and I will defend these churches just as I defend Roman Catholicism, because aside from the issue of Papal supremacy, everything they objects to in the Catholic Church is also present in these other traditional denominations.

My sole focus as far as Roman Catholicism is concerned is to do whatever I can to help the Traditional Latin Mass communities survive Traditiones Custodes and pray for a new Pope who will restore Ecclesia Dei and Summorum Pontificum.
Yes TC is a tragedy and embarrassing, but there was a little good news yesterday with FSSP. But to have it swept under the rug for another generation is horrible.
I agreed with BXVI that it would enrich the ordinary form and was fine as a parallel rite. Having said that I can understand the need to address dissent that Francis talks about (though feels like an overblown generalization) but he has used a sledgehammer when a more prudent approach would of been far better.
 
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prodromos

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In the Roman Catholic Church, yes. The Eastern Orthodox perspective is that anyone wanting to be married a fourth time, after divorce or bereavement, barring extraordinary circumstances, is doing something wrong
I don't know where you heard about 4th marriages being a possibility. My understanding is that a 3rd marriage would only be permitted by a bishop under extraordinary circumstances.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't know where you heard about 4th marriages being a possibility. My understanding is that a 3rd marriage would only be permitted by a bishop under extraordinary circumstances.

What I was saying is that fourth marriages are an absolute impossibility. I apologize if I did not make that clear. It is the third marriage where a bishop would, as you said, have to grant approval.

The Pedalion actually specifically derides the very idea of a fourth marriage.

The only case I can think of where someone might be Orthodox and in a fourth marriage would be the possible scenario if they were married before being baptized or (perhaps) chrismated from another denomination with looser moral standards, and my sole basis for speculating on the possibility of such an exception is the early church did not break up polygamous marriages, but of course such persons were disqualified from Holy Orders.

By the way, a relative of mine was manhandled by a United Methodist pastor who had divorced and remarried who was seeking to prevent her from hugging the body of her deceased father, to give the last kiss (she is a convert to Russian Orthodoxy), and this combined with the experience of Bishop Bruno, the disgraced Episcopalian bishop who was getting kickbacks from developers, who had fatally shot a man while an LAPD officer and then had a crises of conscience which led him into the priesthood and episcopate, have really served to strengthen my convictions about the need for the ancient canons that only the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrians still pay attention to regarding qualifications for the priesthood, or to be more precise, disqualifications, to be enforced.

Edit: @prodromos I found an embarrassing typo ; I typed “fourth” when I meant “third” in post 72, which I had forgotten about, hence the misunderstanding and accidental misrepresentation. :doh:
 
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The Liturgist

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Most reference works mention a fourth marriage, but I know that Orthodox Christians don't care for that when it's said. I take it that it's possible, but only under very rare circumstances.

There’s no way an Eastern Orthodox priest, or a Coptic, Syriac or Ethiopian priest, is doing a fourth marriage; I have no idea how many times Kim Kardashian and Kanye West were previously married before their marriage and trip to Holy Etchmiadzin but I think its a safe bet Armenian priests aren’t going for that either.

In Ethiopia many elderly widows to live, as in the early church, an ecclesiastical quasi-monastic life, with their food and other necessities provided by the church. I wish we had that more broadly, so the mormors, babushkas, yiayias and other grand old ladies whose husbands have reposed could be supported by the church now, as they were in the beginning, in an automatic and comprehensive manner, as opposed to the current system where it feels at times like the opposite is true in many mainline protestant parishes.
 
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ah i did not know that. getting married 4 times does feel odd (even with previous bereavements or invalid marriages) and I would of thought it would be prudent to atleast pause and consider / discuss things for a moment, Ie not rush into things. I can’t imagine that it happens often (life is pretty short)

Yes TC is a tragedy and embarrassing, but there was a little good news yesterday with FSSP. But to have it swept under the rug for another generation is horrible.
I agreed with BXVI that it would enrich the ordinary form and was fine as a parallel rite. Having said that I can understand the need to address dissent that Francis talks about (though feels like an overblown generalization) but he has used a sledgehammer when a more prudent approach would of been far better.

I wasn’t aware of any dissent except to Amoris Laetitia and the Amazonian Synod, and the isolation of the Franciscans of the Immaculate from their relatives for an unnecessarily protracted period of time.
 
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