A Question for Catholics

[concretecamper]

Our mutual friend, Fidelibus, has posted a similar question to Protestants. I would like to head how Catholics in particular respond to this question. Even if you are not Catholic please feel free to enter the discussion.

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

This is pretty explicit. It is His Church.

 

[GodLovesCats]

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

This is pretty explicit. It is His Church.

So why does the Catholic Church have a pope and catechism? To be Christ's church, it cannot be governed by any person except Jesus or any book except the Bible.

Also, if it is truly Christ's church, why are so many Catholic churches named after a saint instead of Christ?

Protestant churches truly are "Christ's church" because they base everything on one book - the Bible - and are only governed by God. They are named after God, the Bible, or a feature of God, not dead people.

One more thing: Tarry is not a word in modern American English so that verse does not have any meaning as you wrote it.

 

[concretecamper]

So why does the Catholic Church have a pope

becasue the early Church had a Pope too. There has has been a succession of Popes from Peter to the Francis.

Also, if it is truly Christ's church, why are so many Catholic churches named after a saint instead of Christ?

you can say that about any Protestant denomination.

Protestant churches truly are "Christ's church" because they base everything on one book - the Bible -

that practice is NOT based on scripture. It is a man made idea

One more thing: Tarry is not a word in modern American English so that verse does not have any meaning as you wrote it.

I didnt define "tarry".
Ugh!

 

[GodLovesCats]

That practice is NOT based on Scripture. It is a man-made idea.

How so? The Bible is the only holy scripture accepted in Christianity.

You conveniently omitted my specific question about also having a catechism to be governed by, which is a man-made idea.

 

[concretecamper]

How so? The Bible is the only holy scripture accepted in Christianity.

the Bible doesn't say follow only the Bible. THE Bible DOES say listen the to Church.

You conveniently omitted my specific question about also having a catechism to be governed by, which is a man-made idea

Because the comment is irrelevant. Many protestant denomination have something similar.

 

[GodLovesCats]

The Bible doesn't say follow only the Bible. The Bible DOES say listen to the Church.

Where does it say we should follow sinners on an equal level with the infallible Scripture? Pastors also sin. Following the Bible alone takes away "the blind leading the blind" from church.

 

[concretecamper]

Where does it say we should follow sinners on an equal level with the infallible Scripture?

I said the Bible tells us to listen to the Church. If you don't like it, sorry, I just follow God's commands.

Pastors also sin.

yep

Following the Bible alone takes away "the blind leading the blind" from church

except the Bible never tells us to do that.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Except the Bible never tells us to do that.

Where does it tell us to follow the Church first and itself second, as Catholics have historically done with a lot of popes?

 

[concretecamper]

Where does it tell us to follow the Church

see post #21. In addition, see Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

first and itself second, as Catholics have historically done with a lot of popes?

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

 

[fhansen]

Where does it say we should follow sinners on an equal level with the infallible Scripture? Pastors also sin. Following the Bible alone takes away "the blind leading the blind" from church.

If I may...
One will have at least some edifcation by reading the bible, of course, but can still remain quite blind. The Bereans required the input of Paul, and the Ethiopian Eunuch required the input of Philip in order to understand Scripture, even though the same OT Scripture was praised in 2 Tim 3 as being God-breathed and useful for instruction, rebuking, training, equipping the servant of God etc. The church, Christ's disciples possessing His revelation, were necessary first of all to give full understanding. And now, as well, we can have many plausible yet conflicting interpretations of bible passages. When we read the bible for ourselves, even while praying for guidance, at the end of the day we nonetheless become the final authority, thereby following a sinner, a man and his opinions: ourselves.

 

[Buzzard3]

They're all headed by Christ, Valletta. Our Lord founded a movement, not a club.

Incorrect. Our Lord founded one, single, visible Church, headed by one man, Peter, to whom was given "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 16). That meant Peter had the final say on everything. This is the Church model that Jesus set up ... a model that the Catholic Church has maintained from the beginning (with the apostles) until today.

The early Church was very far from a mere "movement" - it was a strictly-controlled organisation with a strictly-controlled hierarchy with a strictly-controlled set of beliefs and practices. Even Paul was subject to Peter and the Church leadership (see Galations 2).

 

[Buzzard3]

Would you kindly elaborate on why your denomination alone is the pillar and ground of the truth?

Short answer: Bcoz Jesus gave the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to one man, Peter (Matt 16), who was the first Pope and Bishop of Rome. Pope Francis is the modern-day successor of Peter.

 

[Buzzard3]

Even by this late date, the Biblical canon had not even been nailed down yet. So we look to the church as the keepers of truth.

As per Ephesians 4:11-16

 

[Albion]

Incorrect. Our Lord founded one, single, visible Church, headed by one man, Peter, to whom was given "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 16).

I don't think so. But if you have a different belief, that's okay.

 

[Buzzard3]

I don't think so. But if you have a different belief, that's okay.

Why did Jesus give the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to Peter only (Matt 16:19)?

 

[Albion]

Why did Jesus give the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to Peter only (Matt 16:19)?

First, we do not know that he gave them to Peter only and, second, it's evident that he had no intention of creating a Papacy let alone an Infallible Papacy, yet that is what your church teaches.

 

[Buzzard3]

First, we do not know that he gave them to Peter only and, second, it's evident that he had no intention of creating a Papacy let alone an Infallible Papacy, yet that is what your church teaches.

The first half of Acts (before the focus switches to the missionary activities of Paul) makes it abundantly clear that Peter is the leader of the Church. For example, try counting the number of times Peter's name is mentioned in the first half of Acts compared to the other apostles - compared to Peter, the others are barely mentioned.

Why did Jesus say the devil wants to "sift (Peter only) like wheat" (Luke 22:31)? It's because it was to Peter only that Jesus gave "the keys of the kingdom of heaven", making Peter the supernaturally guided leader of the Church.

According to John 1:42, the VERY FIRST THING Jesus said to Peter was “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas (which means rock).”
Please explain why Jesus changed Simon's name to "rock" the first time they met.
(Hint - read Matt 16:18).

 

[Albion]

The first half of Acts (before the focus switches to the missionary activities of Paul) makes it abundantly clear that Peter is the leader of the Church.

No, it doesn't.

For example, try counting the number of times Peter's name is mentioned in the first half of Acts compared to the other apostles - compared to Peter, the others are barely mentioned.

That doesn't make him the leader of the church and it FOR SURE doesn't make 200+ later bishops of Rome be Jesus' choice for leader of the church.

Why did Jesus say the devil wants to "sift (Peter only) like wheat" (Luke 22:31)?

Why did Jesus say "Get behind me, Satan" when speaking to Peter just after the famous "keys" verse?

According to John 1:42, the VERY FIRST THING Jesus said to Peter was “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas (which means rock).”

Jesus made a friendly play on words there, something close to a joke; and you know why that was because you noted, correctly, the connection between the name and a Rock.

 

[prodromos]

Why did Jesus give the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to Peter only (Matt 16:19)?

The Church Fathers are consistent in interpreting the authority for "binding and loosing" to be the keys, which all the Apostles received.

 

[concretecamper]

The Church Fathers are consistent in interpreting the authority for "binding and loosing" to be the keys, which all the Apostles received.

of course he did. Mat 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. (think Church Councils)

BUT, Only Peter was given it individually. (think Papal Authority)