A Question for Catholics

[bbbbbbb]

Our mutual friend, Fidelibus, has posted a similar question to Protestants. I would like to head how Catholics in particular respond to this question. Even if you are not Catholic please feel free to enter the discussion.

 

[Dave G.]

When ever Catholic doctrine speaks of "the church" it's speaking of itself. With that in mind pillar and ground means the church, truth means Christ and the Gospel. Unlike what many believe, Catholic doctrine does put Christ at the head of the church and preaches the Gospel.

From the protestant view it's similar, just that the belief is "the church" goes beyond RC. Still the same otherwise, pillar and ground is the church, Christ and the gospel truth.

In the end it's the church that delivers truth. And it seems each one feels they are the "true church" lol.

 

[Albion]

It's true what you wrote there. Protestants generally consider the church to be the total of all true believers in Christ, while Catholics think of it as referring to their particular church organization and it alone.

When the pillar and ground is referred to in the New Testament, however, there isn't such uncertainty. What is being referred to is also spelled out for us in that passage. It's the "household of faith" that is being counted upon to uphold the true faith. That's a reference to the family of believers, not to some institution.

There wasn't any international church organization at the time, as we see with Paul's letters to the church at Corinth and the church at Ephesus, etc. Those are different congregations in different locations, each being considered to be the church by Paul.

 

[Dave G.]

It's true what you wrote there. Protestants generally consider the church to be the total of all true believers in Christ, while Catholics think of it as referring to their particular church organization and it alone.

When the pillar and ground is referred to in the New Testament, however, there isn't such uncertainty. What is being referred to is also spelled out for us in that passage. It's the "household of faith" that is being counted upon to uphold the true faith. That's a reference to the family of believers, not to some institution.

There wasn't any international church organization at the time, as we see with Paul's letters to the church at Corinth and the church at Ephesus, etc. Those are different congregations in different locations, each being considered to be the church by Paul.

That's an awesome point because "the church" really is the entire body of believers in the living God capital G..

 

[Carl Emerson]

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

I'm pretty sure this is the verse he is hanging on...

And yes I do believe Truth comes forth from the Church - but only because Jesus still speaks to the hearts of believers.

 

[bbbbbbb]

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

I'm pretty sure this is the verse he is hanging on...

And yes I do believe Truth comes forth from the Church - but only because Jesus still speaks to the hearts of believers.

I agree with you and the other posters thus far. It is a pity that none of our Catholic friend, especially Fidelibus, have ventured to post a response to the question.

 

[Valletta]

It's true what you wrote there. Protestants generally consider the church to be the total of all true believers in Christ, while Catholics think of it as referring to their particular church organization and it alone.

When the pillar and ground is referred to in the New Testament, however, there isn't such uncertainty. What is being referred to is also spelled out for us in that passage. It's the "household of faith" that is being counted upon to uphold the true faith. That's a reference to the family of believers, not to some institution.

There wasn't any international church organization at the time, as we see with Paul's letters to the church at Corinth and the church at Ephesus, etc. Those are different congregations in different locations, each being considered to be the church by Paul.

As a Catholic I know that our Church is headed by Jesus Christ and exists both in Heaven and on earth.
Those in Heaven and on earth are particularly united at the Mass.

 

[Albion]

As a Catholic I know that our Church is headed by Jesus Christ and exists both in Heaven and on earth.
Those in Heaven and on earth are particularly united at the Mass.

They're all headed by Christ, Valletta. Our Lord founded a movement, not a club.

 

[bbbbbbb]

They're all headed by Christ, Valletta. Our Lord founded a movement, not a club.

Perhaps when he wrote "our Church" he actually meant the church containing of of us Christians. I rather think not, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As a Catholic I know that our Church is headed by Jesus Christ and exists both in Heaven and on earth.
Those in Heaven and on earth are particularly united at the Mass.

Would you kindly elaborate on why your denomination alone is the pillar and ground of the truth?

 

[Tigger45]

I voted for *All of the above (i. e. all branches of Christianity)
in response to >Matthew 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

 

[Joy]

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[GreekOrthodox]

Would you kindly elaborate on why your denomination alone is the pillar and ground of the truth?

Morning and happy hump day!
I think the best way to explain RC, EO, and OO approaches to ecclesiology is that we treat history differently than most Protestants. It is a living history that we repeat through the liturgical cycle. So for example, in the EO, every seventh Sunday after Pascha (Easter), we commemorate the feast of the First Ecumenical Council of 325AD and we repeat the condemnation of Arius and other early heresies. Even by this late date, the Biblical canon had not even been nailed down yet. So we look to the church as the keepers of truth.

 

[com7fy8]

What is the pillar and ground of truth?

Jesus is "the truth" > in John 14:6.

So, if people make ideas and doctrines their main focus about what the truth is, already they can be off-track.

I would say the main thing about truth is how Jesus has us becoming in our character. And I would say this was the first and main focus of Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount. Right away, Jesus talks about how to be >

"poor in spirit".

And then He talks about being

"meek"

"merciful"

"pure in heart".

All these, in my opinion mean how Jesus Himself is, and how we become because of Jesus living in us. So, the truth is not only correct ideas, but the true reality of how we become and love the way God's word means. God in us does His meaning of His word; this is basic of all His grace does.

And I think we can see if this is the basic and the main focus of every member of any group claiming to be Christian. I do not know of any group who first and mainly brings attention to how to become conformed to the image of Jesus. But ones can be very busy with superficial . . . intellectual . . . doctrinal . . . ideas, and this in comparison with what other humans are capable of believing.

And part of why, then, a number of groups have ordained evil people is because they evaluate pastoral candidates by superficial standards, especially comparing them with their own ideas and practices which are outward. And evil people can put on the act a group is looking for, and talk their talk.

So, my opinion is that the church and pillar of truth is God's people who are ministering for us to become conformed to the image of Jesus, and this is the focus of our Apostle Paul's ministry > Colossians 1:28-29.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

I'm pretty sure this is the verse he is hanging on...

This church includes "examples to the flock" > in 1 Peter 5:3. We need "examples" > leaders who take the lead in all we need to be doing, of God's word. So, just spreading correct ideas is not ministering the truth. We need "examples" who are samples of how God in us has us living His word.

And God's word is clear about who qualifies just to be considered to take care of His people > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. But it appears to me that there is some number of people and groups who can not tell the difference between a qualified pastor and a con artist or predator! I would say this is because they do not know how to make sure with God, but are evaluating candidates by how they act and tone their voices. With Jesus, His sheep can tell the difference . . . even His "sheep" can > John 10:1-30 < not only Christ's real leaders. So, I would say this is a basic of the functioning church of Jesus. And there is no group who always has obeyed God's qualifications for pastoring, though members of a group might be with God so they do things His way.

 

[The Liturgist]

Morning and happy hump day!
I think the best way to explain RC, EO, and OO approaches to ecclesiology is that we treat history differently than most Protestants. It is a living history that we repeat through the liturgical cycle. So for example, in the EO, every seventh Sunday after Pascha (Easter), we commemorate the feast of the First Ecumenical Council of 325AD and we repeat the condemnation of Arius and other early heresies. Even by this late date, the Biblical canon had not even been nailed down yet. So we look to the church as the keepers of truth.

Indeed, and this is entirely correct. There is also the anathema service which is I think part of Vigils for the Sunday of Orthodoxy, where the Metropolitan of Piraeus in the prior decade stirred up controversy by unilaterally inserting several anathemas not in the Triodion.

 

[fhansen]

Our mutual friend, Fidelibus, has posted a similar question to Protestants. I would like to head how Catholics in particular respond to this question. Even if you are not Catholic please feel free to enter the discussion.

The church is made up of more than the RCC and authority is given to the bishops, from all over the world, with the pope, together comprising the magisterium or teaching authority of the church.

 

[Dave G.]

Just one example of truth within scripture pointing to Christ Jesus and the word of truth, the word/by the Word. All of John 1. And the 14th verse can stand alone:

John 1:14


14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

When we come before Jesus Christ face to face before the throne of Grace one day, can we give an account of how we lived for Him? St so and so day or this denominational action or that will likely be of no account if even mentioned. But whatever it was, if it was in glory of man more likely worth filthy rags. We love our neighbor in meekness. When we come to Christ in this present life because He first came to us, are we changed, do we live in His will ? Do we confess Him before men ? As it says in Philippians 4:8 , "dwell on these things" ie think on them. 8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

We keep our eye on Christ, He is the way the truth and the life in John 14:6. The same yesterday today and forever Hebrews 13:8. He is our salvation, our rock, our anchor. Salvation:

Titus 3:5


5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

I don't know about the RCC doctrines and catechism full of rules etc. Perhaps that's one way. But the Christian walk reflects Jesus Christ, we shine His light from inside out to a lost and fallen world. He and His word are one and are truth.

Today in this fallen world that truth is coming under attack. Things are changing amazingly fast, prison sentences for preaching truth from the word of God from pulpits has started in more than one seemingly civilized country now. Even Canada has ruled no preaching on the results of gay activity from within scripture, they want scripture itself changed. Truth is under attack. Catholics and protestants alike should be hearing bells of alarm.

 

[fhansen]

I don't know about the RCC doctrines and catechism full of rules etc. Perhaps that's one way. But the Christian walk reflects Jesus Christ, we shine His light from inside out to a lost and fallen world. He and His word are one and are truth.

A catechism simply explains the faith-as you're meaning to do here with your post. It tells us why and how to reflect Jesus Christ.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I don't know about the RCC doctrines and catechism full of rules etc. Perhaps that's one way. But the Christian walk reflects Jesus Christ, we shine His light from inside out to a lost and fallen world. He and His word are one and are truth.

This is Luther's Small Catechism just on the Ten Commandments.
Luther’s Small Catechism by Dr. Martin Luther

For example

The Fifth Commandment
You shall not murder.
What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not hurt or harm our neighbor in his body, but help and support him in every physical need.

 

[The Liturgist]

This is Luther's Small Catechism just on the Ten Commandments.
Luther’s Small Catechism by Dr. Martin Luther

For example

The Fifth Commandment
You shall not murder.
What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not hurt or harm our neighbor in his body, but help and support him in every physical need.

Indeed.