A question for Calvinists

[CCWoody]

That's a LOW mentality, and spoken by someone who's obvioulsy more angry at being opposed than anything else. That more than anything makes me not care to take the time...days even I was considering if necessary, to find some resources. You don't care to dialog, you just want to get together with your fellow Reformed buddies & bash.

Let's see if I can recap this thread. You speak evil against the Reformers saying we have no spirit of missions in us and then say we are the ones bashing when I ask over and over and over for you to document your invectives.

Er, OK!

Later.

 

[theseed]

Ok explain this:

Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility

.

http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/5.html

 

[drstevej]

The SBC came out of the civil war, a spin off of another Baptist denominaiton (American Baptist?) And because they believed in Calvinism does not mean I will take not stock in it, without careful investigation. And the SBC is not Calvinistic now is it?

The baptists divided north and south at the onset of the Civil War. Hence SOUTHERN baptists.

Subsequently they ploanted churches throughout American. There has been a strong Calvinist contingency of Calvinistic Southern Baptists all along. Read the history of Southern Seminary. Today the president of that seminary, Albert Mohler, is a staunch Calvinist and reminds his critics that his theology is that of the schools long heritage.

And because they believed in Calvinism does not mean I will take not stock in it, without careful investigation.

A careful investigation is a worthy pursuit. Ever read the London Baptist Confession of 1644? That's a great starting place to see baptist who acknowledge that salvation is of the Lord.

 

[theseed]

Can anybody jump in here? Thanks.

Not to derail the thread - like I can tell where it's going anyway - but if a non-elect person hears, understands and believes the Gospel, will that change his/her election status? Will God graciously switch them from the Reprobate column to the Elect column? Serious question...

o.

Calvinist would say no, b/c God is outside of time and soveriegn is decreed all that will happed.

 

[CCWoody]

Can anybody jump in here? Thanks.

Not to derail the thread - like I can tell where it's going anyway - but if a non-elect person hears, understands and believes the Gospel, will that change his/her election status? Will God graciously switch them from the Reprobate column to the Elect column? Serious question...

o.

No! Even the Demons believe and tremble. There will be a lot of people on the day of Judgment who will think that they have saving faith only to hear the Lord say "I never knew you." All they will have in their lives is the devils useless assurance that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. They will find that they never really had any saving faith.

 

[orthotomeo]

Why, then, are the lost (like those referred to in 2 Thess 1 and 2) said to be condemned specifically for the sin of unbelief?

o.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Can anybody jump in here? Thanks.

Not to derail the thread - like I can tell where it's going anyway - but if a non-elect person hears, understands and believes the Gospel, will that change his/her election status? Will God graciously switch them from the Reprobate column to the Elect column? Serious question...

o.

Ok, quick, dirty and simple. From a Calvinist perspective, one would have to be among the elect in order to be given the grace to hear, understand, and believe the gospel.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishnes; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I Corinthians 1:18 KJV
​

Hope that cleared up any confusion for you, at least from a Calvinist perspective. There are others who can speak from an Arminian perspective.
​

 

[orthotomeo]

...why does God offer the Gospel to reprobates, too, with the clearly evident sense they're responsible to believe it, when He knows they can't?

As far as reprobates are concerned, isn't the Gospel offer *ahem* a fib?

o.

 

[CCWoody]

Ok explain this:
Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility
http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/5.html

The problem here is multi-fold:

1. You really don't know that the Southern Baptists were founded by Calvinists and still has a strong Calvinist influence today. Please read the www.founders.org site to get you started.
2. You highlight of the "free agency of man" reveals that you don't even know what we Calvinists teach. There is nothing in that statement which is inconsistent with Calvinism.

A Southern Baptist Looks at the Biblical Doctrine of Election ( from www.founders.org)
Chapter 7



[size=+1]EVANGELISM
AND
ELECTION [/size]



Where is the HOPE
for the SUCCESS of EVANGELISM?



THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION is the certainty of success in the work of EVANGELISM. It is the FOUNDATION and HOPE of MISSIONARY ENDEAVOR.



If the hope of preachers and missionaries was in their own power and ability to convert sinners, or, if our hope was in the power or ability of dead sinners to give themselves life, all would despair. But when the worker's hope for results is in the work of the Holy Spirit, who alone can quicken, we labour on with hope and expectation . . . in what God will do, and be sure He will effectually call His sheep by His own will and power THROUGH prayer and preaching.





EVANGELISM AND ELECTION



God elected the MEANS of salvation as well as the persons to salvation. His Word reveals that He chose to save His own through preaching and witnessing - "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."



But we must ever remember that preaching and prayer are the means and not the cause of anyone's salvation. The cause is God's unconditional Electing Love - "For God so loved the world that the 'whosoevers' will believe and will not perish. "



WHO ARE THE "WHOSOEVERS"?



ANSWER -



John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth ... shall come....



John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me."



WHY IS IT THAT SOME DO NOT BELIEVE?



ANSWER -



John 10:26 "But ye believe NOT because ye are not my sheep.



You see, the Father gave His Son some sheep and He has sent us out to preach and witness because that is the means He employs to call them.



John 17:2 "As thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as THOU HAST GIVEN HIM. "



THEY WILL COME - CHRIST HAS PRAYED FOR THEM.



John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for THEM WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME: for they are thine. "



JESUS PRAYED FOR THE FUTURE SHEEP WHO WOULD COME.



John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word "



John 17:24 "Father, I will that they also, WHOM THOU HAST GIVEN ME, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. "



WHY IS GOD'S ELECTING LOVE SO IMPORTANT TO THE PREACHER AND MISSIONARY?



It is the doctrine that assures the success of our missionary efforts.



The greatest preacher-evangelists in the History of the church believed in the biblical doctrine of Election:



John Bunyan, author of Pilgrim's Progress, and a great preacher.

George Whitefield, the greatest evangelist, ever to set foot on American soil.

John Paton - Missionary to New Hebrides.

Jonathan Edwards - William Carey - Charles Haddon Spurgeon and others.



It was the hopeful doctrine of election that God used to encourage the Apostle Paul when he was afraid to go to Corinth; God said to him, ". . . I have much people in this city " (Acts 18:9, 10).



No, the doctrine of Election does not dampen evangelism if it is rightly held, but rather, it guarantees the success of it and should be the greatest encouragement that we have.





Chapter 8



[size=+1]AMAZING GRACE [/size]



If you do not believe in the biblical doctrine of ELECTION, you do not understand what it means to be saved by SOVEREIGN GRACE. You will have to write a song entitled AMAZING DECISION, how sweet the sound! It is either by GRACE or by something else, and, since it is by GRACE ALONE. it must be because of ELECTING LOVE.

Amazing grace! how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved:
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believed!

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come:
'Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me,
His word my hope secures:
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this heart and flesh shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease:
I shall possess, within the vail,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine:
But God who called me here below,
Will be forever mine. - John Newton -

​

 

[orthotomeo]

Ok, quick, dirty and simple.

Thank you! That's how I like my answers (quick and simple, anyway).

From a Calvinist perspective, one would have to be among the elect in order to be given the grace to hear, understand, and believe the gospel.

Hm. So where do formerly devout, failed-to-perservere ex-Calvinists come from?

 

[CCWoody]

Why, then, are the lost (like those referred to in 2 Thess 1 and 2) said to be condemned specifically for the sin of unbelief?

o.

Because there are different kinds of belief. Demons have a kind of belief which cannot save. It is not a true Salvific belief. It is no different than people who have a belief in a false Christ which cannot save or a misplaced belief, which also cannot save.

For a quick Biblical example of this, look at the Hebrews who were taken out of Egypt. We read that after the Lord brought them out He destroyed those who did not believe. Now, it can't be that they didn't believe in God. They saw the miracles and they witnessed the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. These people believed in the LORD. But, it was clearly not a kind of belief which could save them because it was not a belief and trust in the right kinds of things. And this is why Jude calls them unbelievers.

Unfortunately, true salvific belief is far more profound than most churches recognize.

 

[theseed]

I still waiting for you to explain free agency. And how that is conisistent with Cavlinism?

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Thank you! That's how I like my answers (quick and simple, anyway).

Sorry, old engineering slogan for something done on the fly without a lot of thought placed in it.

Hm. So where do formerly devout, failed-to-perservere ex-Calvinists come from?

No such animal. Consult the parable of the weat and the tares. They grew up together, yet they were still two different plants. That's why we do not attempt to discern who is elect and who is not. The only criteria we as fallen men can use to judge is appearance.

Who would have thought that an adulterous murderer (King David) would be among the Elect?

 

[CCWoody]

Guys, I haven't done Even song yet and the rate I'm going it will be midnight before I'm done. I'm out for the evening. You can either wait for me later or I leave you in drstevej's & Calvinist_Dark_Lord's capable hands.

 

[orthotomeo]

Because there are different kinds of belief. Demons have a kind of belief which cannot save. It is not a true Salvific belief. It is no different than people who have a belief in a false Christ which cannot save or a misplaced belief, which also cannot save.

Are you sure? The Bible says (as I understand it) that Christ's death, burial and resurrection made it possible for ALL men to be saved, without exception. I see no hint that the cross made any allowance for angels, so I'm not sure why you bring it up.

Also, James said:

Jam 2:19 You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder.

All he is saying is that even demons believe "God is one." I see nothing about men or angels believing or disbelieving Christ died, was buried and rose again for their sins. Again, I don't know why you think this is relevant.

For a quick Biblical example of this, look at the Hebrews who were taken out of Egypt. We read that after the Lord brought them out He destroyed those who did not believe. Now, it can't be that they didn't believe in God. They saw the miracles and they witnessed the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. These people believed in the LORD. But, it was clearly not a kind of belief which could save them because it was not a belief and trust in the right kinds of things. And this is why Jude calls them unbelievers.

Still don't see the relevance to my question.

Unfortunately, true salvific belief is far more profound than most churches recognize.

Can you show c&v contrasting true faith with false?

 

[theseed]

Guys, I haven't done Even song yet and the rate I'm going it will be midnight before I'm done. I'm out for the evening. You can either wait for me later or I leave you in drstevej's & Calvinist_Dark_Lord's capable hands.

Ok, explain to me later free agency in the Baptist Faith and Message.

 

[orthotomeo]

No such animal.

How can you possibly know that? Would you like to meet some? I can introduce you.

The only criteria we as fallen men can use to judge is appearance...

I'd be careful with that - going by that standard, many of the carnal Corinthians would have to be condemned by Calvinists as unbelievers. Yet Paul calls them saints. Even the guy sleeping with his mom, Paul disciplines as a believer. External sin or fruit is no indicator of salvation.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

How can you possibly know that? Would you like to meet some? I can introduce you.

i know that because God's elect will never finallly fall from grace. i do need clarify an oversite in my previous statement however (it is late and this will be my last post of the evening)...By no means are those who call themselves Calvinists the entirety of the Elect. i am certain that many who call themselves Calvinists are among the reprobate, and i am certain that many who reject Calvinism are amont the Elect.

Theological error is not the unforgivable sin, the continueous rejection of the Gospel is.

I'd be careful with that - going by that standard, many of the carnal Corinthians would have to be condemned by Calvinists as unbelievers. Yet Paul calls them saints. Even the guy sleeping with his mom, Paul disciplines as a believer. External sin or fruit is no indicator of salvation.

i believe i stated the same in different words. i find no disagreement with you on that issue. i simply say that judging by externals is an "iffy" proposition, yet it is the only criteria that we as fallen humans have available to us, we cannot see the heart as God does.

Historically speaking, there are two and only two churches:

1. The Visible Church, composed of the "wheat" and the "tares"
2. The Invisible Church, composed of All the Elect of God from all ages.

We cannot know for certainty who is who. Only God knows that for certain.

As Aslan the Lion says often in the Narnia Chronicles (C.S. Lewis)

"I never tell anyone's story except their own."
​

 

[orthotomeo]

i am certain that many who call themselves Calvinists are among the reprobate. . .we cannot know for certainty who is who

If you truly believe that - and I'm asking you to be honest here - then surely you can't know 100% that YOU are one of God's elect? It IS possible you might one day fall away for good, proving yourself to have been a reprobate?

I'm not trying to pin you down with this or make you feel bad- I just know that's the logic of Calvinism, but I've yet to meet even one Calvinist who'll admit the possibility about himself.

o.

 

[Covenant Heart]

Seedy said:

But many struggle to believe that God picks whosoever wills, which Calvinists assert.

Perhaps they try to resolve what God does not intend to be resolved.

Louis Berkhof was among the most respected reformed theologians of his day. He wrote, "in cases where the analogy of Scripture leads to the establishment of two doctrines that appear contradictory, both doctrines should be accepted as Scriptural in the confident belief that they resolve themselves into a higher unity. Think of the doctrines of predestination and free will, of total depravity and human responsibility." (Berkhof, Principles of Biblical Interpretation; p. 166).

Surprised? Read on.

"But as man by the fall did not cease to be a creature endowed with understanding and will, nor did sin which pervaded the whole race of mankind deprive him of the human nature, but brought upon him depravity and spiritual death; so also this grace of regeneration does not treat men as senseless stocks and blocks, nor take away their will and its properties, or do violence thereto; but it spiritually quickens, heals, corrects, and at the same time sweetly and powerfully bends it, that where carnal rebellion and resistance formerly prevailed, a ready and sincere spiritual obedience begins to reign; in which the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consist" (Canons of Dort, Heads 3 & 4, Article 16).

Now it is true that Article 16 continues that "unless the admirable Author of every good work so deal with us, man can have no hope of being able to rise from his fall by his own free will...," yes. But don’t assume that reformed theology sees people as senseless blocks of wood. Synod denied that from the start. People just haven’t listened.

Seedy said:

"These things don't bother me because I believe that baptism is a mere ordinance, when John the Baptist baptized, it was done to show that a person is repenting of their sins. But this is another argument for another day."

But this is not an argument for another day. The point is most relevant to the present discussion. That’s why I framed it as I did. You restrict baptism to adults who "decide" for Christ and voluntarily receive a mere ordinance as a sign of utter graciousness on the part of God. You offer baptism solely to those who have had a particular experience which is prerequisite to baptism by a particular churchly group. But if grace and election relate to this post-decision baptism, they can hardly be qualified by the terms "irresistible" and "unconditional." Can they.

That you don’t believe in the amillennial view is also very relevant to this issue of sin and grace. The reformed view assumes not the absence but the presence of the earthly reign of grace. There is a vast difference between the faith and church of those awaiting a millennium and who hold that Satan now bestrides the earth seeking whom (including the voluntarily gathered church) he may devour–and that faith and church which holds that Christ’s ministry and work on the cross bound Satan so that he can no longer devour God’s people however else he may roam.

Millennialism militates against the irresistible grace and perseverance of the five points by placing the church in an interim condition before the fullness of the grace and lordship of Christ is revealed. A millennial dispensation means that salvation is differently administered in various ages, that one church has NOT existed from the beginning of the world and will NOT last until the end, and is not universally preserved by God against the rage of the world–contrary to Reformed Confessions (Belgic Confession of Faith, Article 27). What would this mean?

At the very least, it means that the perseverance of God for his saints is a teaching not universally applicable to the people of God. Multiplied covenants become barriers to a perseverance of the saints throughout salvation history. This must also introduce OTHER conditions for the election of the chosen people in different ages. Entrance may rest on obedience or "decision," but not on the covenant itself, and not on the unconditional election that is its foundation. If so, justification by faith may be a doctrine not universally applicable to God’s people.

We may not want to speak of a necessary deductive or logical connection between covenant unity in its several administrations, unconditional election, saints perseverance, and the amillennial end of the world. But the concepts do flow together. Reformed faith sees the church not as a voluntarily gathered community, but as a covenanting community. God took Abraham and put his offspring in that covenant community–without asking! Unconditional election and irresistible grace make sense in this church. The church that sees this covenant as the one believing community in all ages is the natural home of the five points.

It is a contradictory teaching to argue irresistible grace and the saints perseverance while requiring decision and conversion for entering the local church. Without the church as one covenanting community in all ages and infant baptism (replacing circumcision) until Christ returns to usher in the eternal state, the five points make precious little sense.

"But what about God's desire for all to be saved? Does this contradict his decree for only some to be saved? (1 Tim. 2.3-4)"

No. But to arrive at that conclusion, we have to surrender our rationalism (although certainly not our rationality) to Christ and put the question in context of our broader philosophy of ministry as it derives from the covenant. Blessings!

Covenant Heart