A question for Calvinists

[Lotar]

Sorry, off topic.

I love your avatar, Calvin with a light saber

 

[theseed]

The reason that Election is consistent with man's agency is that they are completely separate things which have nothing in common. Whether he is elected or not, a man's free agency is never affected. Before his conversion, he does what he wants and after his conversion he does what he wants. Even the Reprobate does what he wants.

CCWoody, so morality has nothing to do with salvation, in whether one come to God or not? He is always a free moral agent? But in the quote it just said "free agent" and says it is consistant meaning that the two are related. I still find the statement quote ambigious.

 

[folk_rocker_4jc]

Those who talk of falling from grace always seem to exclude themselves from that possibility, ever notice that?

When you make statements like that, I hope you will include "present comapany excluded", because I would never presume on God's absolute right to do ANYthing with me- including revoking my place in heaven. THAT is true belief in sovereignty!

 

[Covenant Heart]

Seedy:

Gospel proclamation has not always been equal to other works among reformed bodies, true. But the Canons of Dort are not the reason for that. The reason lies more in the erosion of our philosophy of ministry due to the inordinate influence of alien theological systems. Among those is Gill’s brand of "Calvinism" as I said. More recently, another system has assailed our ministry philosophy and done ill to mission. Notice the several forces–good and ill–that have contributed to this.

In 1900, evangelical post-millennialism was strong in many reformed churches. Tremendous effort was made to reach Asia and Africa. This had several side effects. A good result was that it set the groundwork for what is now being reaped in those lands. Another is the advance of liberal theology in the 1900s–due in large part to the fact that reformed churches sent an entire generation–our best and brightest youth–into missions. A third outcome is that our vacation to foreign fields plus the rise of liberalism allowed an alien theological system to rise and offer itself as a bastion against liberalism. It’s name is "dispensationalism."

Now as this end-time novelty has it, what age (dispensation) doesn’t end in abysmal failure? I have to ask, "why should we believe that." Why should the eternal gospel end that way (Rom 16:20)? People of God–if ever a theology promoted skepticism and pessimism, that is it.

The knowledgeably reformed can admit that no–we have not always served the Great Commission faithfully. Saying that, I can acknowledge that other branches of the church have their sins also. But others’ sins are not our problem. We are answerable for our own. So we confess our sins as is Christ’s way. No, we have not always been as good as our theology–and pre-millennial, dispensational brothers are sometimes better than their theology. But granting that we could always do better, I suggest that the cause of our flagging devotion is not our soteriology but our confusion about eschatology.

The amillennial eschatological perspective is enormously important for the gospel! The strong man (Satan) has been bound! God’s reign of grace has begun. Yes, darkness is real and persists. But by his glorious resurrection, Jesus Christ has brought life and immortality to light. So we go into the world proclaiming God’s promise to forgive, cleanse and receive all who trust in Christ! Because Satan’s power is broken and God’s kingdom has come–we don’t have to live in his bondage!

This means that we don’t need to second-guess whether our soteriology allows us to obey the Great Commission! God’s kingdom has come! THAT is the context in which we do ministry. As kingdom heralds, we proclaim with joy that Satan will deceive the nations never again. Never again will he hold sway over the earth! What dispensationalist can say that?

What we reformed people need is NOT to jettison our soteriology. What we need to do is to shake off the morbid pessimism spawned by end-time curiosities that have for too long sapped our wits and led us into unbelieving defeatism. We need to confess again with the church of the ages that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power that brings the increase of God’s kingdom on earth. Let the church do this and we may see such evangelical fervor as makes the world shake.

Our problem is that at present, we lack the faith to believe that the gospel can do this. Blessings!

Covenant Heart

 

[FOMWatts<><]

CCWoody, so morality has nothing to do with salvation, in whether one come to God or not? He is always a free moral agent? But in the quote it just said "free agent" and says it is consistant meaning that the two are related. I still find the statement quote ambigious.

I'm not CCWoody, but I am almost certain we will have the same answer. Since our salvation (election) is determined before the foundation of the earth is laid (Eph 1) then our salvation has NOTHING to do with what we do or do not do here on earth, but all to do with the mercy and grace of God choosing us as His children and creating us to trust in Him to help us perservere. We must also remember that as CHOSEN children of God, when God looks at us He sees nothing but a faithful child covered in the blood of His Son and the only way to Him, and THAT is why we are considered HOLY and BLAMELESS in His sight, not because we are Holy and Blameless, but because He makes us appear that way through Christ, and the faith that He graciously distributes to His elected children.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[folk_rocker_4jc]

Checking to see if my new signature works.

 

[CCWoody]

But the Word became a Person to be followed, enjoyed, and loved.

Ah, now that is a tasty snack. I had to pause on this before I think about posting any response.

Most people seem to regard the Incarnation as little more than their own personal little ticket punch to heaven. But, I notice that Isaiah did not say "For us a Son was offered" He said "Unto us a Son is given." What is the greatest gift the Father could give His elect to demonstrate the great love which He loves us?

The Lord is to be enjoyed, first foremost, and always. "Taste and see...."

Your signature is very Presbyterian, indeed!

 

[CCWoody]

Everyone in heaven will be Mennonites...we will all be​

laying down our arms ( & Crowns) at His feet! ​

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Ah, what's that they say about imitation?​

 

[theseed]

FomWatts, we were debating SBC doctrine as it was written in the Baptist Faith and Message.

 

[sola fide]

Most people seem to regard the Incarnation as little more than their own personal little ticket punch to heaven. But, I notice that Isaiah did not say "For us a Son was offered" He said "Unto us a Son is given."

Amen. Very good point.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Sorry, off topic.

I love your avatar, Calvin with a light saber

Hey, thanks. We were kicking around some anachronistic ideas, and started playing with Printshop one day...You ought to see "YodaSproul" (R C Sproul's head imposed on Yoda's body, with Yoda's ears attached to R C Sproul's head), he's a real howl. Ask frumanchu, who posts here for a link to it. i don't happen to have it handy.

Regards,

CDL
Who is unashamedly Card Carrying, Dues Paying, Ron Paul Voting, Capitol "L" Libertarian

 

[folk_rocker_4jc]

Seedy:

Gospel proclamation has not always been equal to other works among reformed bodies, true.

The knowledgeably reformed can admit that no–we have not always served the Great Commission faithfully. Saying that, I can acknowledge that other branches of the church have their sins also. But others’ sins are not our problem. We are answerable for our own. So we confess our sins as is Christ’s way. No, we have not always been as good as our theology–and pre-millennial, dispensational brothers are sometimes better than their theology.

Amazing. This is all I was ever saying. And I got bashed for it. Thanks for offering the"proof" I was being asked for.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

FomWatts, we were debating SBC doctrine as it was written in the Baptist Faith and Message.

eh? I do go to a SBC Church but would never sign the Baptist Faith and message because I believe to sign something is to agree fully, and if that be the case then the Bible is the only thing I'll sign

FOM<><

 

[KristiXP]

*Mod hat on*

Members, lets remember that this thread is entitled "A question for Calvinists" not a Calvinist bashing thread. If I see anymore bashing of Calvinists I will start removing posts and issuing warnings. There seems to be a lot of spamming going on in this thread and if it dosn't stop, I will remove it.

This is the first and final warning.

*Mod hat off* (don't make me put it on again )

 

[folk_rocker_4jc]

Rule No. 7 - No Public Posts about Specific Moderator Actions

7) You will not post questions or comments about the specific actions of a moderator in a public forum (eg. editing a post, deleting a thread, banning a member), as this remains a private matter between the member and the staff involved. However, members may PM or email a moderator at anytime. General questions about staff and feedback about moderators are allowed, just not specific questions about a particular moderator action. All decisions to edit, move or delete a post or thread are based on this set of rules listed here.


FOM<><

 

[frumanchu]

[/QUOTE]I must point out that Seedy does not speak for the entire Reformed community. I believe your position of their being a "problem with living up to the great commission among Reformed believers" is completely false and without merit. Evangelism Explosion is, to my knowledge, the only ministry with a presence in EVERY nation on Earth. This ministry was founded and run by a "Calvinist."

If you're measuring effort by the numbers in the pews, non-Calvinists will surely win because Reformed believers tend to stay away from concert-style worship services and the Willow Creek Entertainment Church model.

Please tell me...on what basis do you make such a claim that we "have a problem living up to the Great Commission?"

 

[folk_rocker_4jc]

I must point out that Seedy does not speak for the entire Reformed community.

What does "Seedy" have to do with it? Theseed is not Reformed!

Please tell me...on what basis do you make such a claim that we "have a problem living up to the Great Commission?"

Please check post #104 by Covenant Heart, where he admits theres a problem. Then ask him for his information.

Evangelism Explosion is, to my knowledge, the only ministry with a presence in EVERY nation on Earth. This ministry was founded and run by a "Calvinist."

And I have no problem here ...never said there wasn't any evengelism among the Reformed.

If you're measuring effort by the numbers in the pews, non-Calvinists will surely win because Reformed believers tend to stay away from concert-style worship services and the Willow Creek Entertainment Church model.

OK, and that's your opinion of those ministries and that's fine. What about Calvary Chapel, which doesn't use either of those tactics & is easily as successful as Willow Creek?

 

[frumanchu]

What does "Seedy" have to do with it? Theseed is not Reformed!

Please check post #104 by Covenant Heart, where he admits theres a problem. Then ask him for his information.

And I have no problem here ...never said there wasn't any evengelism among the Reformed.

OK, and that's your opinion of those ministries and that's fine. What about Calvary Chapel, which doesn't use either of those tactics & is easily as successful as Willow Creek?

folk, I owe you a bit of an apology. When I read your #112 I misread the "Seedy:" as being an attribution of the quote.

Upon further reading what Covenant Heart posted originally, I am in concurrence with him. I read your post in a different light than it was presented, folk, and responded based on that misunderstanding. This was obviously born out in the rest of the post.

Please accept my apology for the misunderstanding.

That doesn't mean I agree with all your other assertions in this thread

 

[folk_rocker_4jc]

folk, I owe you a bit of an apology. When I read your #112 I misread the "Seedy:" as being an attribution of the quote.

Upon further reading what Covenant Heart posted originally, I am in concurrence with him. I read your post in a different light than it was presented, folk, and responded based on that misunderstanding. This was obviously born out in the rest of the post.

Please accept my apology for the misunderstanding.

That doesn't mean I agree with all your other assertions in this thread

No problem, and it's completely understandable...

 

[theseed]

eh? I do go to a SBC Church but would never sign the Baptist Faith and message because I believe to sign something is to agree fully, and if that be the case then the Bible is the only thing I'll sign

FOM<><

I agree.