A question for Baptists

[ej]

Greetings all, may you have a blessed New Year...

I spent a wonderful Christmas with my husband-to-be and his family.
They are part of a Baptist church, and a close-knit community within the church.

Their love, acceptance and prayers made my Christmas a very peaceful and happy one, and for that I am grateful


The beauty was marred by a strange occurrence though... my boyfriend was recently asked (by the minister) to remove himself from the list of church members, because after a discussion with the minister, he admitted that he did not conform to all of the church's statement of beliefs.

Firstly, I am horrified that a church would reject a member because they struggle with their beliefs.

Secondly, I read the list of beliefs, and I would not be able to profess belief in them all either. Two in particular which I cannot profess to believing:

1 - Those who proclaim His name will be rewarded in heaven; those who do not will suffer eternal punishment in Hell

2 - Baptism by immersion is ESSENTIAL for salvation and entry into God's kingdom

Can anybody help me with understanding this?
Many thanks

 

[II Paradox II]

The beauty was marred by a strange occurrence though... my boyfriend was recently asked (by the minister) to remove himself from the list of church members, because after a discussion with the minister, he admitted that he did not conform to all of the church's statement of beliefs.

hmm... well, I'm a baptist, so I'll try to give you somewhat of an answer...

With regards to this, the thing to understand here is that every church finds some method or standard of fellowship within it's walls. For instance, Some catholics have understood the boundry of communion to lay with obedience to the Pope and magesterium. Others have understood the boundry of communion to lay with a certain set of beliefs, essentials that mark off one group from another. Still others find their union by the practice of common sacraments and communal beliefs associated with them (some eastern orthodox ecclessiologies can be like this). Still others locate the bounds of Christian fellowship by the reception of trinitarian baptism. The list goes on with different answers ranging from certain gifts of the Spirit to obedience to bishops in apostolic succession.

Historically, as baptists have deemphasized sacramental theology and infant baptism, they then have to locate their unity in something else. Typically this has been in doctrine (shared belief) and/or shared experience (being born again) or even more subjective measures like a sense of common Spirit and mission amongst believers.

For those who emphasize doctrinal unity in a very strong sense to the exclusion of other measures of Christian communion, there comes a problem in just how much doctrinal agreement there needs to be. This gives rise to fractures in the church because people can't compromise on issues that they see as essential to their own self-identification as Christians. It also gives rise to the circumstance that you described whereby even small disagreements are cause for seperation and loss of intimate fellowship.

Firstly, I am horrified that a church would reject a member because they struggle with their beliefs.

I'd agree with you. I personally attend a church with which I have many disagreements. However, I acknowledge the Spirit inside of them and work with them even though we may not agree on every detail.

Secondly, I read the list of beliefs, and I would not be able to profess belief in them all either. Two in particular which I cannot profess to believing:

1 - Those who proclaim His name will be rewarded in heaven; those who do not will suffer eternal punishment in Hell

2 - Baptism by immersion is ESSENTIAL for salvation and entry into God's kingdom

Well, I'd definitely disagree with #2, and I have no opinion on #1 because it's too murky. I'd need a lot more context and explanation before I'd know whether i'd agree or not.

ken

 

[sad astronaut]

just so you know, a lot of baptist churches in my area disagree with point #2, but they do stress that it is important as it is symbolic of our relationship with God.
that does seem weird that he would have to end his church membership. i could understand it if he was a leader within the church, because in that case i believe it is important that a church have unified beliefs.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Greetings all, may you have a blessed New Year...

I spent a wonderful Christmas with my husband-to-be and his family.
They are part of a Baptist church, and a close-knit community within the church.

Their love, acceptance and prayers made my Christmas a very peaceful and happy one, and for that I am grateful


The beauty was marred by a strange occurrence though... my boyfriend was recently asked (by the minister) to remove himself from the list of church members, because after a discussion with the minister, he admitted that he did not conform to all of the church's statement of beliefs.

Firstly, I am horrified that a church would reject a member because they struggle with their beliefs.

Secondly, I read the list of beliefs, and I would not be able to profess belief in them all either. Two in particular which I cannot profess to believing:

1 - Those who proclaim His name will be rewarded in heaven; those who do not will suffer eternal punishment in Hell

2 - Baptism by immersion is ESSENTIAL for salvation and entry into God's kingdom

Can anybody help me with understanding this?
Many thanks

Ok, my take on doctrinal statements verses faith.

Faith is an internal thing that comes when God reveals truth into our spirits. It is not a collection of teachings that we mentally assent to. Faith, because it is in the heart and because it is always the result of a revelation from God, is never different between two believers. What God revealed into your spirit is not going to be different from what He revealed into my spirit. We may be at different levels, or I may have things that you do not have and vice versa, but everything that we share is exactly the same.

Doctrinal Statements OTOH rarely have anything to do with what God has actually revealed into our hearts. A doctrinal statement is an outward, mental statement about things we would like to agree on. They are like the clothing that we wear... there is a general commonality in shape, form and color, but what is on the outside is never exactly what is on the inside. Boot me in the butt if you want, but God has never revealed words like "trinity", "omniscient", "Calvinism", or "rapture" etc.. into your heart. These are words and labels we have contrived to help identify and associate with each other. Unfortunately, they have served more to divide and confuse.
We use the word "believe" interchangeably with words like "think", "agree", and "understand". These are just not the same thing. Faith has little to do with the understanding or what you think. As you renew your mind, your "outward doctrinal clothing" will begin to resemble more and more the things you believe in your heart.
Tossing someone out because their hat is the wrong color or because their pants are to long is silly. When making decisions like this, we need to pray and look at the heart. Uphold a standard, yes. But do not throw out the baby with the.... well, you know.

 

[AVBunyan]

Secondly, I read the list of beliefs, and I would not be able to profess belief in them all either. Two in particular which I cannot profess to believing:

1 - Those who proclaim His name will be rewarded in heaven; those who do not will suffer eternal punishment in Hell

2 - Baptism by immersion is ESSENTIAL for salvation and entry into God's kingdom

Can anybody help me with understanding this?
Many thanks

1. Not sure what they mean here - I would say that if one wasn't saved by what Christ did at Calvary then he will suffer etenral punishment in hell. But the proclaiming part is wrong if they are putting an emphasis on somebody just proclaiming. A person can truly be saved and never proclaim His name publically - He will miss out on a blessing by not witnessing but will not suffer for it.

2. Baptism is not needed for salvation, a good concience, or anything except maybe for a good bath after a hot day of mowing the lawn. To teach water baptism is essential for salvation is false and Paul warns of these people in Gal. 1:8,9. If a person wants to get in the baptismal pool or river then go ahead but don't go put somebody under conviction because they didn't.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

also, I'm confused - are you saying some Baptist believe theabove poitns. I dont' know of any Baptists that teach this?

May God bless.

 

[d0c markus]

Greetings all, may you have a blessed New Year...

I spent a wonderful Christmas with my husband-to-be and his family.
They are part of a Baptist church, and a close-knit community within the church.

Their love, acceptance and prayers made my Christmas a very peaceful and happy one, and for that I am grateful


The beauty was marred by a strange occurrence though... my boyfriend was recently asked (by the minister) to remove himself from the list of church members, because after a discussion with the minister, he admitted that he did not conform to all of the church's statement of beliefs.

Firstly, I am horrified that a church would reject a member because they struggle with their beliefs.

Secondly, I read the list of beliefs, and I would not be able to profess belief in them all either. Two in particular which I cannot profess to believing:

1 - Those who proclaim His name will be rewarded in heaven; those who do not will suffer eternal punishment in Hell

2 - Baptism by immersion is ESSENTIAL for salvation and entry into God's kingdom

Can anybody help me with understanding this?
Many thanks

Baptists say you need to be baptized to be saved? Not in any baptist church i ever went to.

I agree with point number 1. I think it has to do with romans 10:8-9

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

No doubt any saved christian will want to proclaim Jesus' name.

 

[ej]

Thanks all

Regarding the first point, it is not the proclaiming of Jesus' name that I struggle to understand, but the condemnation of thse who do not, to eternal punishment in Hell. I have been under the impression that a just and loving God allows souls to be saved through repentance, and that we shall all, living and dead, be judged when He comes again.

 

[d0c markus]

Thanks all

Regarding the first point, it is not the proclaiming of Jesus' name that I struggle to understand, but the condemnation of thse who do not, to eternal punishment in Hell. I have been under the impression that a just and loving God allows souls to be saved through repentance, and that we shall all, living and dead, be judged when He comes again.

i can understand why he asked him to leave. Clearly he thought this guy was a threat to the congregation saying baptism is not nessecary for salvation, and that you dont need to proclaim the name of Jesus.

From his standpoint you are wrong, and could lead the others to believer your "doctrine of demons"

1CO 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

the church these days lacks discipline, and i am surprised that he actually did that. He is doctrinally wrong on point #2, but right according to paul and removing someone from the congregation.

 

[ej]

There has been a misunderstanding...

i can understand why he asked him to leave. Clearly he thought this guy was a threat to the congregation saying baptism is not nessecary for salvation, and that you dont need to proclaim the name of Jesus.

He never said these things. These are points which I read, and which I would have had trouble subscribing to. He has been a member of that church for 24 years and was aked to leave immediately, with no offer of counsel or teaching, having expressed difficulty in understanding how a just God could support such doctrine.

the church these days lacks discipline, and i am surprised that he actually did that. He is doctrinally wrong on point #2, but right according to paul and removing someone from the congregation.

I thought that all Christians should be Evangelists, and spread the word. I cannot see how the rejection of a longstanding member who is struggling with beliefs can be consistent with this. I see that I am wrong according to Baptist teaching, and this saddens me.

 

[d0c markus]

.

 

[FreeinChrist]

The beauty was marred by a strange occurrence though... my boyfriend was recently asked (by the minister) to remove himself from the list of church members, because after a discussion with the minister, he admitted that he did not conform to all of the church's statement of beliefs.

Firstly, I am horrified that a church would reject a member because they struggle with their beliefs.

Secondly, I read the list of beliefs, and I would not be able to profess belief in them all either. Two in particular which I cannot profess to believing:

1 - Those who proclaim His name will be rewarded in heaven; those who do not will suffer eternal punishment in Hell

2 - Baptism by immersion is ESSENTIAL for salvation and entry into God's kingdom

Can anybody help me with understanding this?
Many thanks

I think there is some essential information left out in your story. What exactly did he disagree with? You put down the 2 that you didn't agree with, but didn't include what he disagreed with. And what brought on this conversation - is there some other issue the pastor was concerned about?

I attended Baptist churches for several decades, and have never attended one that stated that baptism is necessary for salvation. Instead, they believed that baptism is an act of obedience by the believer, an outward profession of an inward change.

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

I'm with you, ej. I am baptist, grew up baptist...but every baptist church that i have ever been to believes that salvation is through grace - admitting that one is a sinner heading for hell, and accepting God's gift of His Son's blood on Calvary as the payment for the sins. I can understand that anyone who IS saved would want to proclaim His name to the ends of the earth, but what I have always been taught by the baptist church is that the ONLY way to get to heaven is salvation by grace. However, there are a lot of things that Christians *should* do, that they often don't, even though they have received salvation. I guess my thinking in this is, if they are saved, yet don't "proclaim", does that override their salvation? I'm a OSAS girl. I believe that if they are truly saved, yet don't proclaim, that isn't going to send them to eternal punishment, however, they will be judged by their Father for their deeds/works...and if they aren't proclaiming the Savior that they serve, yikes. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes!

As for the baptism. Baptism isn't necessary for salvation. Baptism is a public profession of faith and obedience to God's word and God's will. I believe that every Christian *should* be baptised by immersion (it's symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ), however, if one isn't, it does not mean that their salvation is null and void. I would have issues if a church believed that baptism was required for salvation. At my church, you do have to be baptised to become a member of the church (although, I can't honestly say I know their exact reasoning for this, but I would assume it is because it is your public profession of faith, and shows that you are being obedient? Like I said, I'm really not exactly sure).

I guess if I were your beloved, I would be looking for a different church - one that DID conform to my beliefs - as long as my beliefs were in line with God's word, that is!

 

[ej]

What exactly did he disagree with?

That a just and good God would condemn a person to eternal punishment in Hell

And what brought on this conversation - is there some other issue the pastor was concerned about?

The minister is new, and wanted to get to know the longstanding church members.

I attended Baptist churches for several decades, and have never attended one

that stated that baptism is necessary for salvation. Instead, they believed that baptism is an act of obedience by the believer, an outward profession of an inward change.

This sounds like a far more healthy and accurate interpretation

 

[ej]

I guess if I were your beloved, I would be looking for a different church - one that DID conform to my beliefs - as long as my beliefs were in line with God's word, that is!

Thank you

It means a lot to have my thoughts confirmed... I'm sure you understand though, that it is a strange situation when he, and his friends and family, know of his dedication to Christ, yet he finds himself rejected by a church!

I really respect and appreciate the thoughts that have been offered here.

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

I'm sure you understand though, that it is a strange situation when he, and his friends and family, know of his dedication to Christ, yet he finds himself rejected by a church!

Personally, I totally understand. I recently left the church that I grew up in for similar reasons - a member who disliked me started rumors about me, and several (although not all) of the members really began to question my relationship with Christ because of the things this member basically had fabricated from nothing about me. She was in her 40s, I was 20 at the time. They believed her over me. I left because I no longer felt comfortable and felt as though my every move was being scrutinized, as if they were looking for proof that I wasn't who they thought I was. This was a church that I was born into - I was 21 when I left. So, I can relate to being in a church for a long time and being "rejected", even though our "rejection" was not the same. This isn't what a church should be about - in any denomination!

Keep in mind that while a church is supposed to be the body of Christ, there is no church that is perfect. IMO, this church was wrong. Instead of rejecting him, they should have been uplifting him and trying to help him sort through his struggles. That is just a small part of a churches duties. However, every church is full of sinful human beings. And at times, the sinful nature of the members and even staff is more evident than God's light and love. It's a sad thing that it happens, but unforunately, it does.

I hope this situation hasn't discouraged you or him. Not all churches are this way. Find a church where you are comfortable, where you can worship, grow, and learn...and fellowship without fear or rejection.

If I can help in any way, ej, please feel free to PM me anytime!

 

[FreeinChrist]

So what he disagreed with is this:

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That a just and good God would condemn a person to eternal punishment in Hell

Then perhaps the real issue between him and the pastor is in regards to Holy Scripture and if it is infallible, or it's accuracy? Or does the Bible mean what it says?
I believe there are numerous examples in the Old Testament where punishment occurs to those who disobey God. And Jesus Himself refers to a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, with eternal torment.

Pastors have done things I disagreed with, and perhaps this pastor is too quick to in asking this member to leave...but somehow, I think there is more in your friend's reaction and belief that is stated here.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I'm with you, ej. I am baptist, grew up baptist...but every baptist church that i have ever been to believes that salvation is through grace - admitting that one is a sinner heading for hell, and accepting God's gift of His Son's blood on Calvary as the payment for the sins. I can understand that anyone who IS saved would want to proclaim His name to the ends of the earth, but what I have always been taught by the baptist church is that the ONLY way to get to heaven is salvation by grace. However, there are a lot of things that Christians *should* do, that they often don't, even though they have received salvation. I guess my thinking in this is, if they are saved, yet don't "proclaim", does that override their salvation? I'm a OSAS girl. I believe that if they are truly saved, yet don't proclaim, that isn't going to send them to eternal punishment, however, they will be judged by their Father for their deeds/works...and if they aren't proclaiming the Savior that they serve, yikes. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes!

As for the baptism. Baptism isn't necessary for salvation. Baptism is a public profession of faith and obedience to God's word and God's will. I believe that every Christian *should* be baptised by immersion (it's symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ), however, if one isn't, it does not mean that their salvation is null and void. I would have issues if a church believed that baptism was required for salvation. At my church, you do have to be baptised to become a member of the church (although, I can't honestly say I know their exact reasoning for this, but I would assume it is because it is your public profession of faith, and shows that you are being obedient? Like I said, I'm really not exactly sure).

I guess if I were your beloved, I would be looking for a different church - one that DID conform to my beliefs - as long as my beliefs were in line with God's word, that is!

Question - do you believe there is eternal punishment (hell) for those that reject Christ?

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

Question - do you believe there is eternal punishment (hell) for those that reject Christ?

Absolutely.

 

[d0c markus]

Question - do you believe there is eternal punishment (hell) for those that reject Christ?

yep!

 

[FreeinChrist]

Then you do disagree with ej in regards to eternal punishment, right?

I'm asking just for clarification. In reading the OP and the following posts, I don't see ej as believing in eternal punishment.