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A question for atheists and agnostics

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tanzanos

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People seem to have big hang-up about how a all-good God can exist if evil does.
I would contend evil is not an actual force; but a lack of good.

As for the rest of your points, I'd be interested to hear you elaborate.

Firstly he created evil. Now why did he do that? If he is omniscient and omnipotent then surely he knew beforehand that Lucifer (his archangel of all things) will turn on him. Yet he went ahead and created him anyway.

Secondly he gave us an 'S' shaped spine; the worst possible shape for carrying vertical loads. (this shape is best suited to tree dwellers not bipeds).

Thirdly; his conduct in the OT is abhorrent and downright EVIL.

Fourthly; I refuse to accept the superstitions of bronze age goat herders who believed the world to be flat!

Lastly if God exists then by all accounts and indications he is an Evil entity. Makes one wonder if Lucifer was right?
 
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MaxP

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I actually deleted it because i realized it wasn't totally accurate, i need to do a quick refresher course on entropy. lol.

eitherway my point was that conflating qualitiative or moral concepts like "Best (for what purpose?)" or "Perfection" with scientific concepts like "Entropy" should not be done.

Entropy is not good or evil, and high entropy is not necessarily "best".
I didn't say entropy was evil.
I just said system that has order has organization, and can accomplish whatever it is there for best.
 
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MaxP

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You´ve done a great job, cantata.
Personally, statements like "existence exists" are enough for me to give up already.
(I prefer to contemplate on the question whether speed is fast. Or whether redness is red.
The question is why existence exists.
It's a metaphysical question.
 
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MaxP

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Firstly he created evil. Now why did he do that? If he is omniscient and omnipotent then surely he knew beforehand that Lucifer (his archangel of all things) will turn on him. Yet he went ahead and created him anyway.
Lucifer isn't pure evil. Evil is a lack good, and God is good, so everything he creates is good in essence. But He give the creatures a choice.

Secondly he gave us an 'S' shaped spine; the worst possible shape for carrying vertical loads. (this shape is best suited to tree dwellers not bipeds).
I've actually heard the S-shaped posture provides the best advantage in terms of minimal muscle effort required for leveraging upright posture and minimal amount of forces created into the spinal joints.

Thirdly; his conduct in the OT is abhorrent and downright EVIL.
If one does not read it in the correct light, you can twist it that way.

Fourthly; I refuse to accept the superstitions of bronze age goat herders who believed the world to be flat!
If everyone rejected everything given to them by their ancestors there would be no progress.

Lastly if God exists then by all accounts and indications he is an Evil entity. Makes one wonder if Lucifer was right?
What accounts and indications?
 
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MaxP

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Must it have a satisfying answer?
I did not say my answer is 100% satisfying; I have admitted I take it with a measure of faith, as most philosophical conclusions are.

Philosophy and metaphysics do not lend themselves to being absolutely satisfying.
 
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MaxP

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I missed the entirety of pages 20-21, and this:
I´d agree that succeeding in showing that there must be a necessary being (as opposed to merely attempting to) would be an extremely convincing argument for the existence of a necessary being.
I'd posit a necessary Being exists because existence is, yet the existence we see is apparently not forever.
 
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Belk

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I posted a few back in this thread, I'll go look for them.

Fair enough. If I remember them correctly it was something along the lines of the first cause being rational. Problem with this is that you are inferring a great many things and I do not see your chain of logic for reaching them. For instance, how did you infer that there is sentience?
 
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MaxP

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Here's everything:

He is immovable
If He were to be moved, He would have to be moved by Himself or another. Since being moved by another would imply being moved by another prior to Him, it is against His nature as the first Mover. It is also impossible for Him to move Himself(if you want, I will explain, but I doubt this will be a major bone of contention).
All motion is observed to proceed form something immobile, from something that us not moved by the motion in question. Thus we see alterations, corruptions, etc., are not effective on the mover in question.

He is eternal
Everything that begins or ceases to be is effected by motion or change. But He is immobile, hence He is eternal.

He necessarily exists
Everything that has the possibility of being and of not being is mutable. But God is immutable(above). Therefore it is impossible for God to be an not be. Anything that exists in such a way that it is impossible for it not to exist, is Being itself. Necessary existence and the impossibility of non-existence are the same. Also, anything that has the possibility of being and not being needs something else to make it be, for, as far as the thing is concerned, it is indifferent to either option. But that which causes another thing to be is prior to that thing. Hence something exists prior to that which has the possibility of being and not being. Therefore it is impossible for Him to be or not be. He must be of necessity.

He is everlasting
Whatever has no possibility of not being, can never not be. If anything always existed begins to be, it needs some cause for its existence. Nothing brings itself forth from potency to act from non-being to being.

Absence of sucession
No succession occurs in God, His entire existence is simultaneous. Succession is not found except in things that are in some way able to be moved, motion causes the succession of time. God is not subject to motion. His existence is, therefore, simultaneously whole. (there is more to this)

God is not a genus
God cannot be a genus. What a thing is, but not that it is, comes from its genus; the thing is established in its proper existence by differences. But God is very existence itself. He cannot be a genus. Also, every genus is divided by some differences. But there can be no differences in existence Itself. (so no, God is not technically male or female. He is just a word)

All right, you want an argument for God's intelligence.
Here goes.


First, the perfect logically precedes the imperfect. Although the same being evolves from perfect to imperfect (as in a boy prior to a man), everything imperfect must come from a perfect original. The child is not conceive except by a man, and the seed is not existence if not for the plant it came from. Further, any perfections found in anything must be superabundantly present in God. In God exists all perfections in creatures. Whoever moves something toward its perfection, first must possess in itself the perfection it gives to others. A teacher has the knowledge he passes on to students. God possesses the perfection he gives to existence. All perfections found in things must exist in God super-abundantly. Also whatever contains some perfection but not others is contained under a genus. God is not. If the divine essence is infinite, it must possess all perfections in the genera.
Now, we must demonstrate that God is an intelligent Being. All perfections pre-exist in Him. Among all the perfections in creatures, intelligence is a special importance, because intellectual beings are more powerful than others. Also, God is the first mover. This is, apparently, a property of intellect. The intellect uses all other things as an instrument, animals and plants and inantimate objects, of a sort, to cause motion. God, the first mover, must be intelligent.
 
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Belk

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Here's everything:

He is immovable
If He were to be moved, He would have to be moved by Himself or another. Since being moved by another would imply being moved by another prior to Him, it is against His nature as the first Mover. It is also impossible for Him to move Himself(if you want, I will explain, but I doubt this will be a major bone of contention).
All motion is observed to proceed form something immobile, from something that us not moved by the motion in question. Thus we see alterations, corruptions, etc., are not effective on the mover in question.

He is eternal
Everything that begins or ceases to be is effected by motion or change. But He is immobile, hence He is eternal.

He necessarily exists
Everything that has the possibility of being and of not being is mutable. But God is immutable(above). Therefore it is impossible for God to be an not be. Anything that exists in such a way that it is impossible for it not to exist, is Being itself. Necessary existence and the impossibility of non-existence are the same. Also, anything that has the possibility of being and not being needs something else to make it be, for, as far as the thing is concerned, it is indifferent to either option. But that which causes another thing to be is prior to that thing. Hence something exists prior to that which has the possibility of being and not being. Therefore it is impossible for Him to be or not be. He must be of necessity.

He is everlasting
Whatever has no possibility of not being, can never not be. If anything always existed begins to be, it needs some cause for its existence. Nothing brings itself forth from potency to act from non-being to being.

Absence of sucession
No succession occurs in God, His entire existence is simultaneous. Succession is not found except in things that are in some way able to be moved, motion causes the succession of time. God is not subject to motion. His existence is, therefore, simultaneously whole. (there is more to this)

God is not a genus
God cannot be a genus. What a thing is, but not that it is, comes from its genus; the thing is established in its proper existence by differences. But God is very existence itself. He cannot be a genus. Also, every genus is divided by some differences. But there can be no differences in existence Itself. (so no, God is not technically male or female. He is just a word)

All right, you want an argument for God's intelligence.
Here goes.


First, the perfect logically precedes the imperfect. Although the same being evolves from perfect to imperfect (as in a boy prior to a man), everything imperfect must come from a perfect original. The child is not conceive except by a man, and the seed is not existence if not for the plant it came from. Further, any perfections found in anything must be superabundantly present in God. In God exists all perfections in creatures. Whoever moves something toward its perfection, first must possess in itself the perfection it gives to others. A teacher has the knowledge he passes on to students. God possesses the perfection he gives to existence. All perfections found in things must exist in God super-abundantly. Also whatever contains some perfection but not others is contained under a genus. God is not. If the divine essence is infinite, it must possess all perfections in the genera.
Now, we must demonstrate that God is an intelligent Being. All perfections pre-exist in Him. Among all the perfections in creatures, intelligence is a special importance, because intellectual beings are more powerful than others. Also, God is the first mover. This is, apparently, a property of intellect. The intellect uses all other things as an instrument, animals and plants and inantimate objects, of a sort, to cause motion. God, the first mover, must be intelligent.

Thanks! It's going to take me a bit to absorb all this. I'll get back to you. :wave:
 
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TeddyKGB

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I did not say my answer is 100% satisfying; I have admitted I take it with a measure of faith, as most philosophical conclusions are.

Philosophy and metaphysics do not lend themselves to being absolutely satisfying.
So could you be satisfied with an answer of the form, "There is no purpose for X"? And how would you know when you got there?
 
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MaxP

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Thanks! It's going to take me a bit to absorb all this. I'll get back to you. :wave:
If your interested in more, you can read Thomas Aquinas' more accessible Compendium on Theology.
It's not near as long as his Summa and much more accessible. Some translations are called Aquinas's Shorter Summa.
 
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MaxP

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So could you be satisfied with an answer of the form, "There is no purpose for X"? And how would you know when you got there?
Well, I conclude there is a God because existence as we know it is dependent. If you could prove independent existence in the realm of the natural world, I would be forced to conclude God doesn't exist.
I could, theoretically, be satisfied with the idea God created us with no purpose(although given what we can infer about God if He does exist, I don't think He would), but whether we have a purpose is immaterial to the question of whether there is a God.
And I suppose we can only know we have reached our purpose by following what we believe we are ordered to be.
 
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