A question for atheists and agnostics

[Garyzenuf]

You're trying to put me in some kind of catch- 22, but the simple fact is if God didn't exist, nothing would, so nothing would happen. By virtue of Him doing anything, He has to exist.

Actually I don't believe I'm intelligent enough to trap you with anything , I thought we were just brain-storming Origin theories.

As far as nothing lasting forever, I believe all matter and energy does, it just evolves from one state to another, today you're a toaster, 5 billion years from now you're being shot up from a volcano to be part of the new Hawaiian islands.

You say you believe in Evolution ( I think you said that, I apologize if I'm mistaken), if thats the case, it seems you're arguing more for a Pantheistic God, than a Christian one?

*

 

[MaxP]

How did you determine this?
And how do you conclude from observations within the universe on properties of the universe itself?

Well, when you look at a building, and every brick of the building will fall apart in 3 years, then you can logically conclude, without being able to, or needing to, look at the whole building, it will collapse in three years.

Because not every system is infinitely old?

So, then we come to a cycle. But every system is indifferent as to its own existence, as well as any system it may cause after it.
So what was the first system in existence? How did it come to be?

 

[TheBear]

Agreed.
You ignored the rest of my post! *temper tantrum*

I wanted to clarify the terminology. But in the interest of good public relations, (and to quell those nasty temper tantrums ), I'll briefly address your other remarks.

An eternal cycle doesn't make sense to me, as I said before.

That is an argument from incredulity. Just because it doesn't make sense to you personally, doesn't mean it's not possible, or that it should be summarily ruled out. How do you know that the universe hasn't been in an eternal state of flux, expanding out from a singularity, then collapsing on itself to a singularity, then expanding.....for all eternity?

 

[MaxP]

Actually I don't believe I'm intelligent enough to trap you with anything , I thought we were just brain-storming Origin theories.

Haha, my bad, I'm in defense mode.

As far as nothing lasting forever, I believe all matter and energy does, it just evolves from one state to another, today you're a toaster, 5 billion years from now you're being shot up from a volcano to be part of the new Hawaiian islands.

But matter appears to be constantly becoming more disorganized. One minute you're a toaster on a planet, next your 70 billion individual atoms floating in the void. If everything is an endless cycle, it would logically follow that every successive step in the cycle is more disorganized than the last. So, if the cycle is infinite, would there not be infinite disorder?

You say you believe in Evolution ( I think you said that, I apologize if I'm mistaken), if thats the case, it seems you're arguing more for a Pantheistic God, than a Christian one?

*

Well, I don't really believe in evolution(I don't absolutely discard it either). But I believe you might have gotten that impression when I spoke of boy becoming man, but boy must first come from man, when I argued our little bits of perfection must be present in God.
I also believe God, being existence, is a bit pantheistic, but being all-powerful, gave us free will, making us our own beings, and thus means we are not all little gods. Our free will, also, allows us to do things contrary to Gods nature - sin - and the "bad" things we do are contrary to God - contrary to existence.

 

[MaxP]

I wanted to clarify the terminology. But in the interest of good public relations, (and to quell those nasty temper tantrums ), I'll briefly address your other remarks.

Thanks. I'll dry my eyes.

That is an argument from incredulity. Just because it doesn't make sense to you personally, doesn't mean it's not possible, or that it should be summarily ruled out. How do you know that the universe hasn't been in an eternal state of flux, expanding out from a singularity, then collapsing on itself to a singularity, then expanding.....for all eternity?

Because I see transitions like that, and something is always lost in the transition. A little bit of order. So I conclude that if the system is infinite, would we not be infinitely disordered?

 

[Nihilismus]

I have not made that assertion, have I?

Indeed, you have.

I invite you to do so.

I know there is a God.
I know that He cares and interferes on behalf of humanity.
I know what He expects of humanity.
I know He is the only redeemer of humanity.
I know and accept Christ as my personal saviour and act in accordance with His desires.

All of these beliefs are necessary to be a Christian. You have no way of knowing any of these things.

 

[MaxP]

Indeed, you have.


I know there is a God.
I know that He cares and interferes on behalf of humanity.
I know what He expects of humanity.
I know He is the only redeemer of humanity.
I know and accept Christ as my personal saviour and act in accordance with His desires.

All of these beliefs are necessary to be a Christian. You have no way of knowing any of these things.

I do not recall discussing any of those things.

It is an entirely different can of worms. You do not move to calculus unless everyone agrees with you on arithmetic.

 

[Nihilismus]

Do not invite me to argue it then...

 

[God-free]

What has led you to determine God does not exist, or cannot be known?

Dagnabit! This is a discussion I would have enjoyed getting into. I've been too busy preparing for the upcoming festivities.

I suppose, at this point in the discussion, anything I could've said has already been said by someone else so I'll just wish all of you a lovely holiday.

Enjoy!

~Barbara

 

[MaxP]

Dagnabit! This is a discussion I would have enjoyed getting into. I've been too busy preparing for the upcoming festivities.

I suppose, at this point in the discussion, anything I could've said has already been said by someone else so I'll just wish all of you a lovely holiday.

Enjoy!

~Barbara

Thank you, happy holidays and merry Christmas to you!

 

[MaxP]

Do not invite me to argue it then...

I invited you to argue with my belief in God, it is the purpose of the discussion, not the specifics of my belief.

 

[Nihilismus]

I invited you to argue with my belief in God, it is the purpose of the discussion, not the specifics of my belief.

Your specific beliefs were what I stated as being unreasonable conclusions. You then invited me to argue them. I do not know how else you expected me to interpret that.

 

[TeddyKGB]

Oh, and also, how would the cycle start, given every part of it is indifferent ot its own, and the thing after it's existence?

Quantum cosmologies posit an uncaused event leading to the expansion known colloquially as the Big Bang. It is impossible to give a single inclusive summary, as some cosmologies entail singularities, others multiverses, and yet others something else.

Well, I would have to contend nothing in this universe last forever, in it nature. Everything is caused.

The state of things within our universe is really not the problem. We can theoretically rewind universal expansion to 10^-43 seconds after the Big Bang event using general relativity. Our most daunting task is modeling the first moments of inflation, a period which appears determined to resist modeling.

 

[MaxP]

Quantum cosmologies posit an uncaused event leading to the expansion known colloquially as the Big Bang. It is impossible to give a single inclusive summary, as some cosmologies entail singularities, others multiverses, and yet others something else.

So even this theory doe snot exclude God. He could be the "Big Banger,"(that sounds dirty), so to speak.

The state of things within our universe is really not the problem. We can theoretically rewind universal expansion to 10^-43 seconds after the Big Bang event using general relativity. Our most daunting task is modeling the first moments of inflation, a period which appears determined to resist modeling.

How big is the universe?
Is its size fixed?
If it is ever-expanding, would that not imply that the energy in this universe is getting less and less in a given spot?
Would that not imply the universe will eventually be too big for the amount of energy currently in it to be able to be effective?

BTW, I would suggest modeling a plane instead. It's more fun.

 

[LittleNipper]

That doesn't explain why they must be wrong though.

GOD is spirit. Those that worship HIM must do so in spirit and in truth. It says nothing to support traditionally or worldly worship. The Old Testament does prophesy that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem of the line of David. One of a very many such prophecy which JESUS fulfilled. If Jesus fulfilled only 8 of those Old Testament prophecies that would be about a 10 to the 17th power probability. JESUS fulfilled them all...

 

[TeddyKGB]

So even this theory doe snot exclude God. He could be the "Big Banger,"(that sounds dirty), so to speak.

Sure. But if we are trying to avoid introducing entities whose independent existences provoke additional bewildering questions, we might not want to invoke God unless we absolutely must.

How big is the universe?

Something in the neighborhood of 50 billion light-years in diameter, IIRC. [wikicheck = 46.5 bly]

Is its size fixed?

No.

If it is ever-expanding, would that not imply that the energy in this universe is getting less and less in a given spot?
Would that not imply the universe will eventually be too big for the amount of energy currently in it to be able to be effective?

Yes. See "heat death."

BTW, I would suggest modeling a plane instead. It's more fun.

Depends. If my hypothetical girlfriend gave me a choice between swimsuits and F-18s...

 

[tanzanos]

What has led you to determine God does not exist, or cannot be known?

He makes no sense.
He is darn Evil in the OT
He is a lousy engineer
He has no idea about science
Too much evil on this planet
No room for God in physics

List is endless; but in short, I believe in science since I was a kid.

 

[cantata]

The Jew has recieved more support from the Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christian groups than it has from any other.

Yes. For wholly selfish reasons.

 

[cantata]

Interesting, but what you does not explain is how thought and culture can come from quantum weirdness. The nature of the human intellect is to separate things from the matter; I do not see how matter randomly reacting could create such a strange effect.

We have infinity to play with.

Yes, but I believe the nature of the human to be greater than a random cosmic quirk. Also, given the intellect abstracts thing, how could random chemical reactions in the brain cause this thinking? My random chemical reaction tells me the intellect is separate from the matter.

I'm not talking about brains.

I'm talking about the slightest quantum eddy which, for a brief moment - the very moment you are reading this - produces a conscious thought - the one you are having right now - which simultaneously perceives itself as having existed for a number of years, and has apparent memories of those times.

But it's all just a brief flash in the pan. You'll probably be annihilated a moment later.

 

[cantata]

So, then we come to a cycle. But every system is indifferent as to its own existence, as well as any system it may cause after it.
So what was the first system in existence? How did it come to be?

What leads you to believe that time is linear?