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A question for atheists and agnostics

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cantata

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I'm feeling sad that this thread progressed too quickly for me to participate! Goshdarn that time difference.

A thought, however, which is probably a bit late, but never mind: it seems to me that an important element of the cosmological argument is being neglected. In its most convincing forms, it attempts to show that there exists a being whose existence is necessary. If God's existence is necessary then we are not obliged, as we are with contingent objects, to posit a reason or cause for his existence. To ask "Why does God exist?" would make as much sense as to ask "Why does the number 4 exist?"
 
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quatona

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I'm feeling sad that this thread progressed too quickly for me to participate! Goshdarn that time difference.

A thought, however, which is probably a bit late, but never mind: it seems to me that an important element of the cosmological argument is being neglected. In its most convincing forms, it attempts to show that there exists a being whose existence is necessary.
I´d agree that succeeding in showing that there must be a necessary being (as opposed to merely attempting to) would be an extremely convincing argument for the existence of a necessary being.

If God's existence is necessary then we are not obliged, as we are with contingent objects, to posit a reason or cause for his existence.
Well, you would at least have to posit a reason or cause for it being necessary. :)

No atheist nor agnostic (hopefully) will deny that a necessary being is necessary. So let´s see the argument why something is necessary.
Personally, I would also like to see a good reason to call all that which is necessary "god", but, oh well, that´s just a matter of definition.
However, any property of god beyond "necessary" would require additional arguments, and as far as I can see most god concepts contain countless ideas beyond god merely being something necessary. In any case, it would have been a good idea for the OP to present this god-definition of his along with the question.
Then again, his god definitions have changed several times during this thread.
 
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Oneofthediaspora

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To ask "Why does God exist?" would make as much sense as to ask "Why does the number 4 exist?"
Exactly; but try telling Richard Dawkins that.
For some reason he, and others, seem to think the question "Well, what created God then?" to be the end of the argument.
 
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cantata

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I´d agree that succeeding in showing that there must be a necessary being (as opposed to merely attempting to) would be an extremely convincing argument for the existence of a necessary being.

I just wanted to point out that that's what the cosmological argument is trying to do. The nature of the entity whose existence it is trying to prove is pretty important.

Well, you would at least have to posit a reason or cause for it being necessary. :)

Absolutely!

Sorry, I wasn't that clear in my remark. It is my understanding that the cosmological argument initially asserts the need for a first cause, and then argues that such a cause must have necessary existence or it will not solve the problem of the infinite regress. I think this is a reasonable position.

It is up to the opponent of the cosmological argument to challenge the assertion that an infinite regress is incoherent, I think, rather than complaining that God doesn't solve the problem.

No atheist nor agnostic (hopefully) will deny that a necessary being is necessary. So let´s see the argument why something is necessary.

I suppose I'd go about it like this.

Premise 1: There exist things which might not have existed (which is to say, it is logically possible that they did not exist), i.e. contingent things.
Premise 2: All contingent things rely for their existence on other things (in that they do not spontaneously appear or effect change in themselves).
Conclusion 1: If each contingent thing relies on (an)other contingent thing(s) for its existence, there is either an infinite regress of reliance, or there is/are (a) non-contingent (i.e. necessary) thing(s) upon which all contingent things ultimately rely for their existence.
Premise 3: An infinite regress of reliance is incoherent.
Conclusion 2: Therefore (a) necessary thing(s) must exist which also have the properties needed to ultimately account for the existence of all contingent things.

I would then go on to elucidate what these additional properties would be. But I won't do that here because there's only so much devil's advocate I can play. :p

Personally, I would also like to see a good reason to call all that which is necessary "god", but, oh well, that´s just a matter of definition.
However, any property of god beyond "necessary" would require additional arguments, and as far as I can see most god concepts contain countless ideas beyond god merely being something necessary. In any case, it would have been a good idea for the OP to present this god-definition of his along with the question.
Then again, his god definitions have changed several times during this thread.

Well, this is a rather Thomistic argument, and in the Summa Theologica, once Aquinas has proved the existence of this necessary being to his satisfaction, he can then pretty rapidly crank out the other properties of the being which make it seem increasingly God-like.

I'm not saying he's right, of course, but it is certainly not totally insane to think that one can get from the bare idea of this necessary, causal being to something with some more substantial properties.
 
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cantata

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Exactly; but try telling Richard Dawkins that.
For some reason he, and others, seem to think the question "Well, what created God then?" to be the end of the argument.

Yes, and this does annoy me intensely.

It kind of rubbishes the whole discourse of philosophy of religion without actually getting to the point at all.
 
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b&wpac4

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Yes, and this does annoy me intensely.

It kind of rubbishes the whole discourse of philosophy of religion without actually getting to the point at all.

So, like with all of these "proofs" for God's existence, we come to this point:

If God exists, A is correct. If God does not exist, B is correct.

It also really relies a lot on the fact that we do not, as yet, have the knowledge of what happened. If we woke up tomorrow and someone had discovered the cause, and it wasn't God, what would you think then? I suppose we'd start debating if the cause was caused by God.

It is really an unprovable argument either way. Endlessly debating it (while fun, because I love debate) doesn't get us any closer at all to proving it. You cling to A, I cling to B and neither of us give an inch..


(and by "you" here I didn't mean cantata, it was generic)
 
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quatona

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Yes, and this does annoy me intensely.

It kind of rubbishes the whole discourse of philosophy of religion without actually getting to the point at all.
I don´t think it does - at least not if considering the context it usually is presented (and which I think is not at all the "the end of it all" attitude).

The question "What created god, then?" is a very appropriate response to the assertion that the question "What created the universe?" needs to be answered and that the answer "Goddidit" is some sort of explanation.

IOW, as far as I understand, it doesn´t rubbish anything - rather it points out how preceding questions and answers are rubbishing philosophy.
 
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cantata

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What I mean is that the counterargument "Who made God, then?" is usually advanced by people who would rather conveniently destroy the weakest version of the cosmological argument they can get their hands on, rather than taking on the far more challenging (but still ultimately achievable, I would add) task of refuting its strongest incarnations.
 
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b&wpac4

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What I mean is that the counterargument "Who made God, then?" is usually advanced by people who would rather conveniently destroy the weakest version of the cosmological argument they can get their hands on, rather than taking on the far more challenging (but still ultimately achievable, I would add) task of refuting its strongest incarnations.

Well, speaking for myself, I try my best, but I'm not the best at forming those kinds of arguments. If you want to talk to me about law and rights in a legal sense, even though I'm not a lawyer, I tend to understand those. I like reading US Supreme Court cases and understanding where the ideas and concepts come from, for example.

When it comes to God, I feel that it is impossible to believe in God without faith, and since I seem to lack the faith required, no argument, no matter how eloquently phrased, will ever convince me. It would take a change from within, not an argument from without. I get annoyed at people who think if they can just make that once case, I would believe. I find the arguments the same as the question, "Can God create a rock so big that God himself could not lift it?"
 
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cantata

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When it comes to God, I feel that it is impossible to believe in God without faith, and since I seem to lack the faith required, no argument, no matter how eloquently phrased, will ever convince me. It would take a change from within, not an argument from without. I get annoyed at people who think if they can just make that once case, I would believe. I find the arguments the same as the question, "Can God create a rock so big that God himself could not lift it?"

It's fine to choose not to engage with those arguments.

My problem is with those who engage with them dishonestly. It is simply bad debating technique to attack the weakest, rather than the strongest, form of an argument, and then consider yourself the victor.
 
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Braunwyn

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What I mean is that the counterargument "Who made God, then?" is usually advanced by people who would rather conveniently destroy the weakest version of the cosmological argument they can get their hands on, rather than taking on the far more challenging (but still ultimately achievable, I would add) task of refuting its strongest incarnations.
Maybe I haven't been following the thread close enough and I missed the post, but I'm not sure what you, or Max p mean by god. Someone brought up the small point of definitions and maybe that's irrelevant, though for me it's a sticking point. If the conversation is only about a causal factor than I think using a charged term like 'god' muddles the conversation (from a reader's pov).
 
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cantata

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Maybe I haven't been following the thread close enough and I missed the post, but I'm not sure what you, or Max p mean by god. Someone brought up the small point of definitions and maybe that's irrelevant, though for me it's a sticking point. If the conversation is only about a causal factor than I think using a charged term like 'god' muddles the conversation (from a reader's pov).

Well, I think I pointed out quite a long time ago that the cosmological argument that MaxP is advancing can, at most, only prove the existence of a necessary, causal being. However, MaxP has more recently provided us with a list of Thomist properties of the necessary causal being, which, to be fair, Aquinas didn't have much difficulty advancing having established his initial premise.
 
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Braunwyn

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Well, I think I pointed out quite a long time ago that the cosmological argument that MaxP is advancing can, at most, only prove the existence of a necessary, causal being.
Ok, I'm sure I missed several posts. I can't say I'm left feeling comfortable referring to something causal as a being. For me it implies an intelligence on par with humans. As you know, I'm not well read in philosophy so perhaps my understanding of 'being' is wanting.

However, MaxP has more recently provided us with a list of Thomist properties of the necessary causal being, which, to be fair, Aquinas didn't have much difficulty advancing having established his initial premise.
I'm having to look up Thomism right now.
 
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cantata

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Ok, I'm sure I missed several posts. I can't say I'm left feeling comfortable referring to something causal as a being. For me it implies an intelligence on par with humans. As you know, I'm not well read in philosophy so perhaps my understanding of 'being' is wanting.

By "being", I, at least, only mean "thing which exists". I'm not sure what MaxP means.

I'm having to look up Thomism right now.

I'd suggest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_theologica#The_Summa.2C_Part_I:_Theology or http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/aquinas/section2.rhtml for an overview of Aquinas' properties of God.
 
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Braunwyn

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By "being", I, at least, only mean "thing which exists". I'm not sure what MaxP means.
I'm assuming that he means the Christian deity with all its bells and whistles. I could be wrong though.

Thanks. I'll check out those links. I'm really motivated to take a philosophy class but from what I understand there's a lot of time-consuming writing involved. Maybe I could buy a text that has a student guide.
 
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cantata

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I'm assuming that he means the Christian deity with all its bells and whistles. I could be wrong though.

I think he conceded that, alone, the cosmological argument cannot produce Yahweh. He agreed that further argument is required to work out his other properties.

Thanks. I'll check out those links. I'm really motivated to take a philosophy class but from what I understand there's a lot of time-consuming writing involved. Maybe I could buy a text that has a student guide.

SparkNotes provides excellent summaries of major philosophical and theological works.

You may also be interested in http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/ , which offers brilliant summaries of philosophical masterpieces composed solely of real quotations.
 
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Braunwyn

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I think he conceded that, alone, the cosmological argument cannot produce Yahweh. He agreed that further argument is required to work out his other properties.
That's good to hear/read. I wish I had the time to go back through the thread.

SparkNotes provides excellent summaries of major philosophical and theological works.

You may also be interested in http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/ , which offers brilliant summaries of philosophical masterpieces composed solely of real quotations.
Thanks again.
 
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LittleNipper

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Simply, a lack of what I consider credible evidence that supports a case for god's existence.

Two realities:

One: Scientists have never been able to create biological life from the inert. Yet that is exactly what people wish to believe "mother nature" achieved without thought.

Two: The Jew has existed for thousands of years as Jews and yet the world has continuously tried to absorb, disperse, and eradicate them. The Bible says this will not happen --------- and it hasn't.
 
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cantata

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One: Scientists have never been able to create biological life from the inert. Yet that is exactly what people wish to believe "mother nature" achieved without thought.

Prehistoric earth had millions of years to do its thing. We have not.

Two: The Jew has existed for thousands of years as Jews and yet the world has continuously tried to absorb, disperse, and eradicate them. The Bible says this will not happen --------- and it hasn't.

Wow. Impressive.
 
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