• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

A question.... am i missing something?

Status
Not open for further replies.

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,559
4,834
59
Oregon
✟901,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I really hate to do this, especially when it concerns the unresolvable debate over the unprovable date for the writing of Revelation, but when I see such a bold claim as this, with little to no evidence in support of it, I feel compelled to raise a challenge.
Breetai said:
Also, the vast majority of scholars date the writing of Revelation long after AD 70.

Where is this "vast Majority" breet?

What constitutes a "vast majority" anyway?

Is majority opinion, in and of itself, proof of fact? (I say no to that BTW)

The following is a PARTIAL list of scholars who advocate the neronain (pre70) date for Revelation. Although it is only partial, I think there are enough here to go ahead with my challenge.

I suppose a "vast majority" would have to be 2 to 1 at the very least, so Breet, if you can come up with 300 or so names of scholarly, published late date advocates, perhaps I'll begin to entertain your above assertion seriously.

--PARTIAL LIST OF EARLY DATE ADVOCATES--

Firmin Abauzit, Essai sur 1’Apocalypse (Geneva: 1730).​
Jay E. Adams, The Time is at Hand (Philipsburg NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1966).
Luis de Alcasar, Vestigatio arcani Sensus in Apocalypsi (Antwerp: 1614).
B. Aube
Karl August Auberlen, Daniel and Revelation in Their Mutual Relation (Andover: 1857).
Greg L. Bahnsen, "The Book of Revelation: Its Setting" (unpublished paper, 1984).
Arthur Stapylton Barnes, Christianity at Rome in the Apostolic Age (Westport, CT: Greenwood, [1938] 1971), pp. 159ff.
James Vernon Bartlet, The Apostolic Age: Its Life, Doctrine, Worship, and Polity (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, [1899] 1963), Book 2, pp. 388ff. [1]
Ferdinand Christian Baur, Church History of the First Three Centuries, 3rd ed. (Tubingen: 1863).
Albert A. Bell, Jr., "The Date of John’s Apocalypse. The Evidence of Some Roman Historians Reconsidered," New Testament Studies 25 (1978):93-102.
Leonhard Bertholdt, Htitorisch-kritische Einleitung in die sammtlichen kanonishen u. apocryphischen Schriften des A. und N. Testaments, vol. 4 (1812 -1819).
Willibald Beyschlag, New Testament Theology, trans. Neil Buchanan, 2nd Eng. ed. (Edinburgh: T. &T. Clark, 1896).
Charles Bigg, The Origins of Christianity, ed. by T. B. Strong (Oxford: Clarendon, 1909), pp. 30,48.
Friedrich Bleek, Vorlesungen und die Apocalypse (Berlin: 1859); and An Introduction to th New Testament, 2nd cd., trans. William Urwick (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1870); and Lectures on the Apocalypse, ed. Hossbach (1862).
Alexander Brown (1878)
Heinrich Bohmer, Die Offenbarung Johannis (Breslau: 1866).
Wilhelm Bousset, Revelation of John (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck, 1896).
Brown, Ordo Saeclorum, p. 679. 50
Frederick F. Bruce, New Testament History (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1969), p.411.
Rudolf Bultmann (1976).
Christian Karl Josias Bunsen.
Cambridge Concise Bible Dictionay, editor, The Holy Bible (Cambridge: University Press, n.d.), p. 127.
W. Boyd Carpenter, The Revelation of St. John, in vol. 8 of Charles Ellicott, cd., Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, rep. n.d.).
S. Cheetham, A History of the Christian Church (London: Macmillan, 1894) , pp. 24ff.
David Chilton, Paradise Restored (Tyler, TX: Reconstruction Press, 1985); and The Days of Vengeance (Ft. Worth, TX: Dominion Press, 1987).
Adam Clarke, Clarke’s Commentay on the Whole Bible, vol. 6 (Nashville: Abingdon, rep. n.d.).
William Newton Clarke, An Outline of Christian Theology (New York: Scribners, 1903).
Henry Cowles, The Revelation of St. John (New York: Appleton, 1871).
W. Gary Crampton, Biblical Hermeneutics (n. p.: by the author, 1986), p. 42.
Berry Stewart Crebs, The Seventh Angel (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1938).
Karl August Credner, Einleitung in da Neuen Testaments (1836).
R.W. Dale (1878)
Samuel Davidson, The Doctrine af the Last Things (1882); "The Book of Revelation" in John Kitto, Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature (New York: Ivison & Phinney, 1855); An Introduction to th Study of the New Testament ( 1851 ); Sacred Hermeneutics (Edinburgh: 1843).
Edmund De Pressense, The Early Years of Christianity, trans. Annie Harwood (New York: Philips and Hunt, 1879), p. 441.
P. S. Desprez, The Apocalypse Fulfilled, 2nd ed. (London: Longman, 1855).
W. M. L. De Wette, Kure Erklamng hr Offmbarung (Leipzig: 1848).
Friedrich Dusterdieck, Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Revelation of John, 3rd ed., trans. Henry E. Jacobs (New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1886).
K. A. Eckhardt, Der Id da Johannes (Berlin: 1961 ).
Alfred Edersheim, The Temple: Its Ministry and Services (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, rep. 1972), pp. 141ff.
George Edmundson, The Church in Rome in the First Century (London: Longman’s and Green, 1913).
Johann Gottfried Eichhorn, Commentaries in Apocalypse (Gottingen: 1791).
Erbes, Die Oflenbawzg 0s Johannis (1891).
G. H. A. Ewald, Commentaries in Apocalypse (Gottingen: 1828).
Frederic W. Farrar, The Early Days of Christianity (New York: Cassell, 1884).
Grenville O. Field, Opened Seals – Open Gates (1895).
George P. Fisher, The Beginnings of Christianity, with a View to the State of the Roman World at the Birth of Christ (New York: Scribners, 1916), pp. 534ff.
J. A. Fitzmeyer, "Review of John A. T. Robinson’s Redating the New Testament" (1977-78), p. 312. 52
J. Massyngberde Ford, Revelation. Anchor Bible (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1975).
Hermann Gebhardt, The Doctrine of the Apocalypse, trans. John Jefferson (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1878).
J.C.L. Giesler (1820)
James Glasgow, The Apocalypse Translated and Expounded (Edinburgh: 1872).
Robert McQueen Grant, A Historical Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Harper & Row, 1963), p. 237.
James Comper Gray, in Gray and Adams’ Bible Commentary, vol. V (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, [1903] rep. n.d.).
Samuel G. Green, A Handbook of Church History from the Apostolic Era to the Dawn of the Reformation (London: Religious Tract Society, 1904), p. 64.
Hugo Grotius, Annotations in Apocalypse (Paris: 1644).
Heinrich Ernst Ferdinand Guenke, Introduction to the New Testament (1843); and Manual of Church History, trans. W. G. T. Shedd (Boston: Halliday, 1874), p. 68.
Henry Melville Gwatkin, Early Church History to A.D. 313, vol. 1 (London: Macmillan), p. 81.
Henry Hammond, Paraphrase and Annotation upon the N. T (London: 1653).
Harbuig (1780).
Hardouin (1741)
Harenberg, Erkiarung ( 1759).
H. G. Hartwig, Apologie Der Apocalypse Wider Falschen Tadel Und Falscha (Frieberg: 1783).
Karl August von Hase, A History of the Christian Church, 7th cd., trans. Charles E. Blumenthal and Conway P. Wing (New York: Appleston, 1878), p. 33. 54
Hausrath.
Bernard W. Henderson, The Life and Prim-pate of the Emperor Nero (London: Methuen, 1903).
Hentenius. [secondary source]
Johann Gottfrieded von Herder, Das Buch von der Zukunft des Herrn, des Neuen Testaments Siegal (Rigs: 1779).
J. S. Herrenschneider, Tentamen Apocalypseos illustrandae (Strassburg: 1786).
Adolf Hilgenfeld, Einleitung in das Neun Testaments ( 1875).
David Hill, New Testament Prophecy (Atlanta: John Knox, 1979), pp. 218-219.
Hitzig.
Heinrich Julius Holtzmann, Die Offenbamng des Johannis, in Bunsen’s Bibekoerk (Freiburg: 1891).
F. J. A. Hort, The Apocalypse of St. John: 1-111, (London: Macmillan, 1908); and Judaistic Christianity (London: Macmillan, 1894).
John Leonhard Hug, Introduction to the New Tesament, trans. David Fosdick, Jr. (Andover: Gould and Newman, 1836).
William Hurte, A Catechetical Commentay on the New Testament (St. Louis: John Burns, 1889), pp. 502ff.55
A. Immer, Hermeneutics of the New Testament, trans. A. H. Newman (Andover: Draper, 1890).
Theodor Keim, Rom und das Christenthum.
Theodor Koppe, History of Jesus of Nazareth, 2nd cd., trans. Arthur Ransom (London: William and Norgate, 1883).
Max R. King, The Spirit of Prophecy (Warren, OH: by the author, 1971 )
Max Krenkel, Der Apostel Johannes (Leipzig: 1871).
Johann Heinrich Kurtz, Church History, 9th cd., trans. John McPherson (3 vols. in 1) (New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1888), pp. 41ff.
Victor Lechler, The Apostalic and Post-Apostolic Times: Their Diversity and Union Ltfe and Doctrine, 3rd cd., vol. 2, trans. A. J. K. Davidson, (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1886), pp. 166ff.
Francis Nigel Lee, Revelation and Jerusalem (Brisbane, Australia, 1985)
John Lightfoot (1658)
Joseph B. Lightfoot, Biblical Essays (London: Macmillan, 1893).
Gottfried C. F. Lucke, Versuch einer vollstandigen Einleitung in die Offenbarung Johannis, 2nd ed. (Bonn: 1852).
Chnstoph Ernst Luthardt, Die Offenbarung Johannis (Leipzig: 1861).
James M. Macdonald, The Life and Writings of St. John (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1877).

Continued...........
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,559
4,834
59
Oregon
✟901,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
EARLY DATE ADVOCATES Continued......

Frederick Denisen Maurice, Lectures on the Apocalypse, 2nd ed. (London: Macmillan, 1885).
John David Michaelis, Introduction to the New Testament, vol. 4; and Sacred Books the New Testament.
Charles Pettit M’Ilvaine, The Evidences of Christianity (Philadelphia: Smith, English & Co., 1861).
A. D. Momigliano, Cambridge Ancient History ( 1934).
Theodor Mommsen, Roman History, vol. 5.
Charles Herbert Morgan, et. al., Studies in the Apostolic Church (New York: Eaton and Mains, 1902), pp. 210ff.
C. F. D. Moule, The Birth of theNew Testament, 3rd ed. (New York: Harper & Row, 1982), p. 174.56
John Augustus Wilhelm Neander, The Histoty of the Planting and Training of the Christian Church by the Apostles, trans. J. E. Ryland (Philadelphia: James M. Campbell, 1844), pp. 223ff.
Sir Isaac Newton, Observation Upon the Prophacies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (London: 1732).
Bishop Thomas Newton, Dissertation on the Prophecies (London: 1832).
A. Niermeyer, Over de echteid der Johanneisch Schriften (Haag: 1852).
Robert L. Pierce, The Rapture Cult (Signal Mtn., TN: Signal Point Press, 1986)
Alfred Plummer (1891).
Dean Plumptere (1877)
Edward Hayes Plumtree, A Popular Exposition of the Epistles to the Seven Churches of Asia, 2nd ed. (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1879).
T. Randell, "Revelation" in H. D. M. Spence &Joseph S. Exell, eds., The Pulpit Cornmentary, vol. 22 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, rep. 1950).
James J. L. Ratton, The Apocalypse of St. John (London: R. & T. Washbourne, 1912).
Ernest Renan, L’Antechrist (Paris: 1871).
Eduard Wilhelm Eugen Reuss, History of the Sacred Scriptures of the New Testament (Edinburgh: T. &T. Clark, 1884).
Jean Reville, Reu. d. d. Mondes (Oct., 1863 and Dec., 1873).
J. W. Roberts, The Revelation to John (Austin, TX: Sweet, 1974).
Edward Robinson, Bibliotheca Sacra, vol. 3 (1843), pp. 532ff.
John A. T. Robinson, Redating the New Testament (Philadelphia: West-minster, 1976).
J. Stuart Russell, The Parousia (Grand Rapids: Baker, [1887] 1983).
W. Sanday (1908).
Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, 3rd cd., vol. 1: Apostolic Christianity (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, [1910] 1950), p. 834.
Johann Friedrich Schleusner.
J. H. Scholten, de Apostel Johannis in Klein Azie (Leiden: 1871).
Albert Schwegler, Da Nachapostol Zeitalter (1846).
J. J. Scott, The Apocalypse, or Revelation of S. John the Divine (London: John Murray, 1909).
Edward Condon Selwyn, The Christian Prophets and the Apocalypse (Cambridge: 1900); and The Authorship of the Apocalypse (1900).
Henry C. Sheldon, The Early Church, vol. 1 of History of the Christian Church (New York: Thomas Y. Crowell, 1894), pp. 112ff.
William Henry Simcox, The Revelation of St. John Divine. The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges (Cambridge: Cambridge University, 1893).
D. Moody Smith, "A Review of John A. T. Robinson’s Redating the New Testament," Duke Divinip School Review 42 (1977): 193-205.
Arthur Penrhyn Stanley, Sermons and Essays on the Apostolic Age (3rd ed: Oxford and London: 1874), pp. 234ff.
Ed Stevens, What Happened in 70 A. D.? (Ashtabula, Ohio North East Ohio Bible Inst., 1981 );
J.A. Stephenson (1838)
Rudolf Ewald Stier (1869).
Augustus H. Strong, Systematic Theology (Old Tappan, NJ: Revell, [1907] 1970, p. 1010).
Moses Stuart, Commentary on the Apocalypse, 2 vols. (Andover: Allen, Mornll, and Wardwell, 1845).
Swegler.
Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, [n.d.] rep. 1974), p. 467.
Thiersch, Die Kirche im apostolischm Zeitalter.
Friedrich August Gottreu Tholuck, Commentary on the Gospel of John (1827).
Tillich, Introduction to the New Testament.
Charles Cutler Torrey, Documents of the Primitive Church, (ch. 5); and The Apocalypse of John (New Haven: Yale, 1958).
Cornelis Vanderwaal, Hal Lindsey and Biblical Prophcey (St. Catharine’s, Ontario: Paideia, 1978); and Search the Scriptures, vol. 10 (St. Cathannes, Ontario: Paideia, 1979).
Gustav Volkmar, Conmentur zur 0fienbarung (Zurich: 1862).
Foy E. Wallace, Jr., The Book of Revelation (Nashville: by the author, 1966) .
Israel P Warren (1878)
Arthur Weigall, Nero: Emperor of Rome (London: Thornton Butter-worth, 1930).
Bernhard Weiss, A Commentary on the New Testament, 2nd cd., trans. G. H. Schodde and E. Wilson (NY: Funk and Wagnalls, 1906), vol. 4.
Brooke Foss Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, [1882] 1954).
J. J. Wetstein, New Testament Graecum, vol. 2 (Amsterdam: 1752).
Karl Wieseler, Zur Auslegung und Kritik der Apok. Literatur (Gottingen: 1839).
Charles Wordsworth, The New Testament, vol. 2 (London: 1864).
Herbert B. Workman, Persecution in the Early Church (London: Ofiord, [1906] 1980).
Robert Young, Commentary on the Book of Revelation (1885); and Cotie Critical Comments on the Holy Bible (London: Pickering & Inglis, n.d.), p. 179.
C. F. J. Zullig, Die Ofienbamng Johannis erklarten (Stuttgart: 1852).
 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
152,093
19,752
USA
✟2,068,894.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Breetai said:
I found out the hard way once when I tried to use Josephus to state a fact once. He's not exactly repected for his unbiased view and it seems likely that the pro-Christian sections are a later forgery. If he quoted a Jew as yelling out for the "Son" during the seige of Jerusalem, it certainly was to the benefit of Rome and to the discredit of anything Christian.

He was pro-Roman (due to the financial benefits) and pro-Jewish(he was Jewish after all), and it is evident in his works.

So true!!:)
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.