A question about the rapture

David Kent · Jul 29, 2023

Douggg said:
David, first please realize that the person goes through 5 stages on his way to his destruction. Being the Antichrist, the anointed King of Israel, is just one of them.

(1) the little horn person, then (2) the prince who shall come, then (3) the Antichrist, then (4) the revealed man of sin, then (5) the beast-king.

Okay, to your question. In John 5:43, Jesus tells the Jews that although he comes in his Father's name, they reject him; but if another comes in his own name, they will receive. I am using the kjv.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Next, we have to understand to the Jews, "the" messiah implies the promised great King of Israel descended from David, to be lead the Jews and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety. You can go to any Jewish (Judaism) website to verify this.
*
Grammatically, Christ is a greek based version of the Jewish word for messiah. We can get that from John 4:25

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

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okay, now let's see where we can find some verses to put all those things together, i.e. coming in his Father's name, and as the King of Israel, and Christ being the King of Israel.

First, John 12:12-15

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Next, let's go to Mark 15:32, Jesus being mocked by the religious leaders...

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

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okay, now we got Christ the King of Israel. And Jesus coming in the name of the Lord, i.e. an inference to him coming in his Father's name, i.e. the specific person God sent to be their King of Israel messiah. But recall that Jesus said the Jews will receive another as their King of Israel messiah - who comes in his own name, i.e. someone God did not send to be their King of Israel messiah..... i.e. the Antichrist. i.e. "Anti" being instead of Jesus, the rightful King of Israel, and being against Jesus, the Son of the Living God.

To help us in identifying the person ahead of time - he has to be a Jew and his religion Judaism. He can't be a Christian, who leaves, albeit John was calling many in his day, who were abandoning Jesus as "antichrists", it was because they suddenly became against Jesus as the Son of God, and were exhibiting the nature of the singular Antichrist, that them in 1John2:18 were aware of his coming. They were aware of the Antichrist's coming because I think John was teaching them about him.

Another thing about the Jews (Judaism) expectations is that the messiah must be anointed the King of Israel by a "known" prophet. Since they are also expecting Elijah the prophet to appear at the same time, to help usher in the messianic age, they will most likely mistake the false prophet person - we first hear about in Revelation 13, who does the same type of calling fire down from heaven as Elijah did - as being Elijah. And it will be the false prophet who anoints the false messiah as the King of Israel - ironically.

Okay, that's the person's Antichrist stage. It will last about 3 years into the seven years, before his time in the Antichrist stage ends, when he reveals himself to be the man of sin (stage 4).

Again, this is how we analyse the person.... so that our understanding of the timeline of events will all line-up.

(1) the little horn person, then (2) the prince who shall come, then (3) the Antichrist, then (4) the revealed man of sin, then (5) the beast-king.p

OK.
1. The little horn. The papacy.
2. The prince who will come. Titus who came and his people destroyed the temple. As you may have noticed it is not there anymore.
3, 4, 5. Same as 1.

The little horn would come out of the 10 horns which were the 10 gothic states that succeeded the empure, so he will head of the revived, in a different form, the Emperor. He will have eyes, his bishops, overseers, his seat is the Holy See.

Jn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. KJV
I think is says IF another should come in his own name.

The Jews knew when Messiah would come from Daniel 9 and were searching for him, but they did not recognise the Messiah because they mistook his office and were expecting a king to lead them into a great kingdom. They were expecting a king of their own imagination.

Likewise, the church knew when Antichrist would come, and likewise they were expecting an immediate world dictator, but he came at the stated time but they did not recognise him because they were expecting an Antichrist of their own imagination.

" Anyone who studies the claims of Christ and then the claims of the Pope, one would have no difficulty recognizing the Antichrist, even though he were a 10 year old boy." John Calvin, Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2.
Christian's knew that for 600 years before Futurism came into the church.

Matt5 · Jul 30, 2023

David Kent said:
No one came before the bridegroom.

The book was written to Christians in Greek, so the answer must be in Greek.
Antichrist came out of the church so antichrist must be an apostate Christian.
Islamic texts were based on the bible in many cases

And the Arabic name is nothing like 666.

Who is the bridegroom? The parable doesn't say Jesus, does it? Why not? Because as Jesus says in Matthew 13, parables are designed to confuse. That is their purpose.

Do a little search of the Bible for bridegroom, and what do you get? Well, the bridegroom can be anyone.

Concerning 666, maybe you should have clicked the link I provided. Allah's name with two swords underneath looks a lot like XEc. You just have to rotate it.

Matt5 · Jul 30, 2023

dfw69 said:
how’s it going Matt5

Not at all we just couldn’t come to an agreement

The call comes to awaken the virgins who were all asleep alerting them that the bridegroom comes for his bride… I don’t see anyone else arriving in this parable

I believe this is a call to wake up the 10 tribes of Israel…

50% were wise and brought extra oil just in case their lamps ran out …in which it did because they awoke and had to relight them

But 50% were foolish and did not bring extra oil to make it to the end .. Their lamps had gone out and they were not able to relight them in time … They left their place and when they tried to return to rejoin and take part in the wedding feast, The bridegroom had no idea who they were so they were locked out from entering inside…

They missed their chance to meet the Bridegroom for being foolish and not planning ahead to bring extra oil to light their way through the darkness in order to meet Him

I can’t see a fake Jesus in scripture because His enemies are anti - that type of doctrine…So I don’t see a fake return of Jesus and a man claiming to be Him.

Nor do I see an Islamic mahdi Jesus or a self proclaimed mahdi unite with the fake Jesus as his FP who will demand worship from Muslims to follow this man to destroy Israel

Christians nations support Israel and though the Muslims do have reason to hate Zionism for its unfairness against them, they are no threat in power to attack Israel and her allies

There comes a man claiming to be God, not the Son of God , who will sit in the temple in Jerusalem and people are going to believe he’s the real deal to the point that they will give their allegiance to him to the death. And ,in spite of the signs and judgments falling on them, they are too stiff neck and refuse to repent and believe.

Perhaps the deception is too great for them to admit that they are following a false God and admit that they failed to believe in the doctrine of the Father and the Son. They found it too difficult to believe in and accept it as truth though it’s starring them in the face in the last days

And a FP will draw a line in the sand to force men to choose between the belief that this man is God of the Jews and Jesus is not our king nor the Son of God

The AC and FP are both Antichrist meaning they fight against the doctrine that the Father has a Son who will sit on the throne of David and rule from Jerusalem. This concept is just too hard to fathom as truth

Christians know Jesus is not a Muslim ….Ask any Christian to finished this sentence…Salvation is of the ______? No one will say Muslins

As for the mark being Allah in Arabic? The AC nor his FP are not going to be Muslim .
Most likely they will be Jewish claiming to be the God of the Jews and the false prophet a false Elijah and the mark will be the first and last letters of the Aleph-bet

The Aleph Tav is said to be the mark of God and since He will claim to be the true Alpha and Omega he will used Gods own mark against the people and against the true Alpha and Omega

We know, or should know, that the Antichrist and false prophet are demons. Effectively, the Earth will be controlled by demons at that time.

Now we need to know: Is Islam a demonic religion?

I guess you haven't thought about Islam being a Abrahamic religion, and why that makes no logical sense unless it's a religion of angels. And by angels I mean demons.

dfw69 · Jul 30, 2023

Matt5 said:
We know, or should know, that the Antichrist and false prophet are demons. Effectively, the Earth will be controlled by demons at that time.

I disagree they are demons … they are men one desires to be worshipped the other is his prophet

Satan is ruling now in our society throughout the world with his kingdoms of the world and those that do his will to steal kill and destroy lives …The signs are everywhere and it’s evident we live in an evil environment but satan always rules through men

Now we need to know: Is Islam a demonic religion?

I guess you haven't thought about Islam being a Abrahamic religion, and why that makes no logical sense unless it's a religion of angels. And by angels I mean demons.

After the so called end of days, mystery Babylon will arise …No one knows who she is yet….but whatever rules after the chaos to come will be your religion of demons..

Jamdoc · Jul 30, 2023

Jonatec said:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed under 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

it's post trib-pre wrath. That's the actual timing of it.
It's after antichrist, after persecution, but when Jesus comes, its with wrath, and punishment of those who persecuted the body of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

So the church endures tribulation and persecution, which intensifies to the Great Tribulation just before Jesus returns, but when Jesus returns, it's payback on them.

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

when's the rest? When Jesus comes back with His mighty angels, those angels being those that blow the trumpets in Revelation. Not 7 years before, but when Jesus comes on the clouds, that's our rest.

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The first trumpet is fire from heaven.

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

He's glorified and admired because He delivers them after they've had their darkest hour. The hero comes to save the day at the climax, not at the opening credits.

David Kent · Jul 30, 2023

Matt5 said:
We know, or should know, that the Antichrist and false prophet are demons. Effectively, the Earth will be controlled by demons at that time.

Now we need to know: Is Islam a demonic religion?

I guess you haven't thought about Islam being a Abrahamic religion, and why that makes no logical sense unless it's a religion of angels. And by angels I mean demons.

All false religions are demonic.

Jamdoc said:
it's post trib-pre wrath. That's the actual timing of it.
It's after antichrist, after persecution, but when Jesus comes, its with wrath, and punishment of those who persecuted the body of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1

So the church endures tribulation and persecution, which intensifies to the Great Tribulation just before Jesus returns, but when Jesus returns, it's payback on them.

when's the rest? When Jesus comes back with His mighty angels, those angels being those that blow the trumpets in Revelation. Not 7 years before, but when Jesus comes on the clouds, that's our rest.

The first trumpet is fire from heaven.

He's glorified and admired because He delivers them after they've had their darkest hour. The hero comes to save the day at the climax, not at the opening credits.

The great tribulation in the gospels is on the unbelieving Jews who crucified Christ . That happened in the Jewish Roman war in AD66-70
The great tribulation in Revelation 7:14 is on Christians, those who washed their robes in blood of the lamb.
The great tribulation In Revelstion 2.22 is on unbelievers, those who have committed spiritual perversion and fornication.

If you are one that believes the seven letters are symbolic of periods in church history, then that is halfway through.

Jamdoc · Jul 30, 2023

David Kent said:
All false religions are demonic.

The great tribulation in the gospels is on the unbelieving Jews who crucified Christ . That happened in the Jewish Roman war in AD66-70
The great tribulation in Revelation 7:14 is on Christians, those who washed their robes in blood of the lamb.
The great tribulation In Revelstion 2.22 is on unbelievers, those who have committed spiritual perversion and fornication.

If you are one that believes the seven letters are symbolic of periods in church history, then that is halfway through.

wrong.
preterism is categorically wrong.
even partial, as Jesus said ALL these things would be witnessed within the same generation.
you don't get to insert a 2000 year gap between some of the events Jesus talked about, and His second coming because He said that generation would witness ALL these things, not part.
since Jesus didn't come back in AD70 (and if you claim He did, it's against the rules of this subforum), then either Jesus is a liar forgery false Messiah, or, as I believe, it is yet future events.

David Kent · Jul 30, 2023

Jamdoc said:
wrong.
preterism is categorically wrong.
even partial, as Jesus said ALL these things would be witnessed within the same generation.
you don't get to insert a 2000 year gap between some of the events Jesus talked about, and His second coming because He said that generation would witness ALL these things, not part.
since Jesus didn't come back in AD70 (and if you claim He did, it's against the rules of this subforum), then either Jesus is a liar forgery false Messiah, or, as I believe, it is yet future events.

I don't think I mentioned preterism. Jesus didnt come in AD70, but neither did he come in 1835 as the first dispensationalists taught.

Jamdoc · Jul 30, 2023

David Kent said:
I don't think I mentioned preterism. Jesus didnt come in AD70, but neither did he come in 1835 as the first dispensationalists taught.

if you believe that the fulfillment of any of the Olivet discourse is in the past, then that is at least partial preterism. But because Jesus said that the generation that witnessed these things would also witness His return, it kind of throws partial preterism out the window.

as to the "different" great tribulations, the one referred to is after the abomination of desolation, which is a yet future event. It's the same all through the bible, not separate. Revelation 2:22 is directed at a CHURCH. It's aimed at Christians, in the Gospels Jesus was speaking to His disciples privately, the great tribulation He was referring to was against Christians.

as to the seven letters I whole heartedly reject the idea of it being historical church periods. Now they were to 7 churches in Asia minor in the first century. But I believe them to also be end times instructions, and referring to church types, rather than any periods of history. I find the "7 church ages" idea to be utterly silly and devoid of value entirely.
Jesus threatened Thyatira with great tribulation. There's only going to be one great tribulation not seen on earth prior, nor will ever again be seen like it. Because the great tribulation is appointed, the threat is toothless if it's for "church ages".
But what is each letter?
an acknowledgement of the good that they do, and then a rebuke of the bad things they do, what they need to do to fix it, and a consequence if they do not for all but 2 churches (Smyrna and Philadelphia). What is the threat each time involve? Jesus returning and them not being right with Him and Him cutting them off, and finally a promise for those who do get right and overcome.
That is why I believe that while they are letters to 7 1st century churches and the rebukes are applicable to them, the real audience for those letters is the Church during the final push just before Jesus returns. Because the consequence for most of the churches is the return of Jesus, but He will be against them not for them.

David Kent · Jul 31, 2023

It is not preterism to believe that the tribulation in the gospels is in the Roman war it is just following carefully what is written, it follows and builds on the teaching of the church through the ages. Futurism is a Jesuit teaching, and was introduced by the Jesuits to counter the true teaching that the Pope is Antichrist, which was taught for at least 6 centuries before it was introduced into a protestant church and it was nearly another century before it came into many mainstream churches. Are you saying all those were wrong, and all Christian's before 1,100 were wrong. as many US dispensationalists I have spoken to say that you are a heretic if you don't believe their teaching. So all non Catholics before 1800 were heretics?

IT was not the church of the Thyartira that was to suffer great tribulation, but those who left ang followed false prophets. Many like that today. Like the prosperity preachers, Mormons and JWs and many others.

The tribulation in the gospels is plainly during the generation that Jesus was addressing and that happened in the Roman war. It was not worse tribulation, by as such. There was nothing like it when all the priests were killed and many if them were thrown naked into the street. All the high priests who challenged Jesus were killed. The archives office was burnt down so they could no longer prove their ancestry. The temple treasures were taken to Rome. They don't know what happened to them. I did some years ago that is thought that they ere tajen from Rome, I can't remember who by, and that they were in a ship which sank in the Mediterranean. So many Jews were sold as slaves that the price of slaves crashed, Some were sent to the mines in Egypt. The Roman ensigns were worshipped in the temple after it was burnt. See Deuteronomy 28.

The great tribulation in Revelation 7:9-14 is on those who washed their robes in the blood of the lamb, the Martyrs for Jesus.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing,
but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein,

The book of Revelation is a history of the church written in advance to let his servants know what was to happen. If as futurists say, from chapter 4 is all in the future, then it is no use at all, unless you are one that it only contains spiritual truths.

Jamdoc · Aug 1, 2023

David Kent said:
It is not preterism to believe that the tribulation in the gospels is in the Roman war it is just following carefully what is written, it follows and builds on the teaching of the church through the ages. Futurism is a Jesuit teaching, and was introduced by the Jesuits to counter the true teaching that the Pope is Antichrist, which was taught for at least 6 centuries before it was introduced into a protestant church and it was nearly another century before it came into many mainstream churches. Are you saying all those were wrong, and all Christian's before 1,100 were wrong. as many US dispensationalists I have spoken to say that you are a heretic if you don't believe their teaching. So all non Catholics before 1800 were heretics?

IT was not the church of the Thyartira that was to suffer great tribulation, but those who left ang followed false prophets. Many like that today. Like the prosperity preachers, Mormons and JWs and many others.

The tribulation in the gospels is plainly during the generation that Jesus was addressing and that happened in the Roman war. It was not worse tribulation, by as such. There was nothing like it when all the priests were killed and many if them were thrown naked into the street. All the high priests who challenged Jesus were killed. The archives office was burnt down so they could no longer prove their ancestry. The temple treasures were taken to Rome. They don't know what happened to them. I did some years ago that is thought that they ere tajen from Rome, I can't remember who by, and that they were in a ship which sank in the Mediterranean. So many Jews were sold as slaves that the price of slaves crashed, Some were sent to the mines in Egypt. The Roman ensigns were worshipped in the temple after it was burnt. See Deuteronomy 28.

The great tribulation in Revelation 7:9-14 is on those who washed their robes in the blood of the lamb, the Martyrs for Jesus.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing,
but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein,

The book of Revelation is a history of the church written in advance to let his servants know what was to happen. If as futurists say, from chapter 4 is all in the future, then it is no use at all, unless you are one that it only contains spiritual truths.

No sir, what you're saying is impossible because Jesus said the generation would witness all these things and it included the second coming.
You can't cherrypick which things out of "all these things" applied. because Jesus described His second coming in verses 29-31 and it was immediately after the tribulation He was referring to beginning after the AoD. You cannot separate the AoD, great tribulation, and second coming by thousands of years. They are sequential. Jesus used the term εὐθέως, which means immediately. This is no room for a gap of 2000 years. It is immediately after.

What you're describing is called partial preterism and it is utterly false because they try to insert a gap after the great tribulation until the second coming, and Jesus said 1 generation would see all these events, including the second coming.

David Kent · Aug 1, 2023

I have already answered that, read Matthew 23.

Jesus told the pharisees that their house would be left desolate, and After that the next time they would send him was when he returned in Glory.

When he left the temple the disciples pointed out the large stones of the temple, wondering how it could be left desolate, i.e. by the abomination that makes desolate. Jesu said not one stone would be left upon another. They asked why and when would that be? Jesus said when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then they would know that its desolation was near.

Those Christian's still alive saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem, the temple was left desolate, they did flee the country when Cestius removed his armies as Josephus said "Without a reason in the world" just as the priests were about to open the gates to him. All fulfilled.

The next time they would see him would be whe he came again in glory as in Matthew 23.

Jamdoc · Aug 1, 2023

David Kent said:
I have already answered that, read Matthew 23.

Jesus told the pharisees that their house would be left desolate, and After that the next time they would send him was when he returned in Glory.

When he left the temple the disciples pointed out the large stones of the temple, wondering how it could be left desolate, i.e. by the abomination that makes desolate. Jesu said not one stone would be left upon another. They asked why and when would that be? Jesus said when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then they would know that its desolation was near.

Those Christian's still alive saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem, the temple was left desolate, they did flee the country when Cestius removed his armies as Josephus said "Without a reason in the world" just as the priests were about to open the gates to him. All fulfilled.

The next time they would see him would be whe he came again in glory as in Matthew 23.

correct Matthew 23 is about 70AD, Matthew 24 is not, as Jesus had immediately after the tribulation that began after the Abomination of Desolation, would be His return.
so no the Abomination of Desolation was not 70AD, neither was the great tribulation.

David Kent · Aug 1, 2023

Douggg said:
David, first please realize that the person goes through 5 stages on his way to his destruction. Being the Antichrist, the anointed King of Israel, is just one of them.
(1) the little horn person, then (2) the prince who shall come, then (3) the Antichrist, then (4) the revealed man of sin, then (5) the

Douggg. Where on earth do you get Antichrist, the anointed King of Israel, from? And the beast king for that matter. Which beast are you talking about, the 4th beast in Daniel 7, or one of the beasts in Revelation.

Douggg · Aug 1, 2023

David Kent said:
Douggg said:
David, first please realize that the person goes through 5 stages on his way to his destruction. Being the Antichrist, the anointed King of Israel, is just one of them.
(1) the little horn person, then (2) the prince who shall come, then (3) the Antichrist, then (4) the revealed man of sin, then (5) the

Douggg. Where on earth do you get Antichrist, the anointed King of Israel, from? And the beast king for that matter. Which beast are you talking about, the 4th beast in Daniel 7, or one of the beasts in Revelation.

David, in my post #79, I explained why the Antichrist will be the (non-God approved) anointed King of Israel.

The beast-king will be king 8 of Revelation 17:11.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth [king], and is of the seven [kings], and goeth into perdition.

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The fourth beast in Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire. In the end times, the Roman Empire has manifest itself as the EU.

The little horn will be king 7 of Revelation 17:10, of the Roman Empire, by being leader over ten other EU leaders.

The little horn when he becomes the beast (king) of Revelation 17:11, of the Roman Empire, will be dictator of the EU, and the ten other EU kings rulng with him.

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Thus, the 5 stages of the person on his path to his is destruction is....

(1) as the little horn person [king 7 over the Roman Empire, leader of the ten other EU leaders] , then (2) as the prince who shall come, then (3) as the Antichrist {non-God approved, King of Israel], then (4) as the revealed man of sin, then (5) as the beast king [king 8 of the Roman Empire, dictator of the EU]

David Kent · Aug 2, 2023

Douggg said:
David, in my post #79, I explained why the Antichrist will be the (non-God approved) anointed King of Israel.

The beast-king will be king 8 of Revelation 17:11.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth [king], and is of the seven [kings], and goeth into perdition.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The fourth beast in Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire. In the end times, the Roman Empire has manifest itself as the EU.

The little horn will be king 7 of Revelation 17:10, of the Roman Empire, by being leader over ten other EU leaders.

The little horn when he becomes the beast (king) of Revelation 17:11, of the Roman Empire, will be dictator of the EU, and the ten other EU kings rulng with him.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thus, the 5 stages of the person on his path to his is destruction is....

(1) as the little horn person [king 7 over the Roman Empire, leader of the ten other EU leaders] , then (2) as the prince who shall come, then (3) as the Antichrist {non-God approved, King of Israel], then (4) as the revealed man of sin, then (5) as the beast king [king 8 of the Roman Empire, dictator of the EU]

Hi Doug, you still haven't shown how Antichrist is king in Jerusalem. He can't be of course as Revelation concerns Christian's, and fills in detais of the Image in Daniel 2 and the 4th beast in Daniel 7. What you miss, is that the 10 kings couldn't come while the empire was reigning. They had to wait till the let and hindrance of 2 Thessalonians 2 was taken out of the way, which was partly done when Constatine moved the seat of government to the east, and was completed when Romulus Romulus Augustulus abdicated after a short reign in favour of Odoaca the leader of the 10 Germanic tribes that replaced the Emperors. (The early church writers knew this from scripture , and it was in the future for them.) The papacy arose at the same time as the 10 kings, and soon overthrew 3 of them, Daniel 7:20, creating the papal states.

How is it that the early church were almost unanimous on this but completely at odds with everything else? Because Paul told the Thessalonians this when he was with them he told them, it would have been well known in the church.

Remember the little horn, the beast that was and is not and yet is, is a continuation of the Emperors ,of the seven, they were all dynasties, as is the eighth.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The little horn will continue to the end. The have been many attempts to unite Europe under the papacy, a few were, Charlemagne, Queen Mary, Guy Fawkes, the Spanish armada, Austria Hungary, the Kaiser, Mussolini and Hitler. The treaty of Rome, The Lisbon treaty which created the EU. You are correct oi identifying them but they are only one of a long line.

I agree the the beast is the little horn and that he is head of the Roman Empire, he was from the beginning and still is.

Douggg · Aug 2, 2023

David Kent said:
Hi Doug, you still haven't shown how Antichrist is king in Jerusalem. He can't be of course as Revelation concerns Christian's, and fills in detais of the Image in Daniel 2 and the 4th beast in Daniel 7. What you miss, is that the 10 kings couldn't come while the empire was reigning. They had to wait till the let and hindrance of 2 Thessalonians 2 was taken out of the way, which was partly done when Constatine moved the seat of government to the east, and was completed when Romulus Romulus Augustulus abdicated after a short reign in favour of Odoaca the leader of the 10 Germanic tribes that replaced the Emperors. (The early church writers knew this from scripture , and it was in the future for them.) The papacy arose at the same time as the 10 kings, and soon overthrew 3 of them, Daniel 7:20, creating the papal states.

How is it that the early church were almost unanimous on this but completely at odds with everything else? Because Paul told the Thessalonians this when he was with them he told them, it would have been well known in the church.

Remember the little horn, the beast that was and is not and yet is, is a continuation of the Emperors ,of the seven, they were all dynasties, as is the eighth.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The little horn will continue to the end. The have been many attempts to unite Europe under the papacy, a few were, Charlemagne, Queen Mary, Guy Fawkes, the Spanish armada, Austria Hungary, the Kaiser, Mussolini and Hitler. The treaty of Rome, The Lisbon treaty which created the EU. You are correct oi identifying them but they are only one of a long line.

I agree the the beast is the little horn and that he is head of the Roman Empire, he was from the beginning and still is.

The ten kings will have their crowns in the end times in Revelation 13:, the last 42 months before Jesus returns, when the beast-king is ruling the world. So the ten kings can't be historic Germanic kings, but end time leaders.

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

I made this graphic of the 5 stages of the little horn on his path to his destruction. Down at the bottom, is the little horn person as the beast-king, ruling the world for 42 months. That is when the ten kings will rule with him (Revelation 1712):, and thus have their crowns in Revelation 13:1.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

iamlamad · Aug 7, 2023

Watchman1 said:
The Rapture will happen at the end of the time of the Gentiles, which we are in at present. When the last Gentile has received Christ as Saviour, then Rapture will happen. This could happen at any moment. First Century Christians knew this and expected the Rapture in their lifetime, because no one knew when the full quota of Gentiles will be saved all the time through the 2000 years since the First Century. This is why the Scripture says that we should always be ready for the Rapture to happen any time.

I think you are close, but I disagree here: It is when the last church age martyr is killed. At the 5th seal, the martyrs of the church age, they want to know when God will begin judgment. They are told, judgment will not begin until the last martyr is killed as they all were killed, in the category of church age martyrs. The church has been waiting at the 5th seal since Stephen was killed.

The last martyr will be killed, the rapture will take place, ending the church age, and the Day of the Lord will begin, as we read at the 6th seal.

iamlamad · Aug 7, 2023

dfw69 said:
I don’t believe so ..the time of the gentiles will continue right up to the rise and fall of the antichrist and the return of Jesus ends the time of the gentiles era . The new era which is the millennium begins when the Jews receive and accept Jesus and at the end of the time of the gentiles

The time of the gentiles just means gentile kingdoms that rise and fall throughout History…Satan is ruling over the gentiles kingdoms …The end of the world is the end of the time of the gentiles …It is the end of human government with all its weaknesses and flawed governance and policies as well as the end of its wickedness and greed

Jesus will create a divine government in Jerusalem and the lion will sleep with the lamb ..the lion will no longer hunger for lambs flesh and the lamb will no longer fear the Lion for they will be at rest

There is no distinction between Jews and gentiles in Christ . Jesus is simply starting a family through His teachings. He taught us to believe in Him to become the children of God and to love one another as family members in Him

Yes I agree these sign takes place before He returns to reign in Jerusalem

This is after the millennium yes

Perhaps they knew when the timing of the rapture would happen but that knowledge was lost … who knows???

They definitely knew how it would take place …

Yes amen

The first church - a Jewish church - died out. God had waited for a sufficient time for the leadership of Israel to accept Him as their Messiah. When they failed, God put blindness in part upon the Jews and sent Paul to the Gentiles. We owe our salvation to Paul! Thank God he went WEST! The church of today is mostly a Gentile church, physically speaking.

iamlamad · Aug 7, 2023

Matt5 said:
We must see the fake Jesus (false prophet) first. He will force everyone to change religions (the falling away).

The real Jesus will not come until after the fake one, so do not become confused.

I believe those that believe they will see the Antichrist Beast first, WILL see him first.

Heb, 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Matt5 said:
We must see the fake Jesus (false prophet) first. He will force everyone to change religions (the falling away).

The real Jesus will not come until after the fake one, so do not become confused.

I believe those that think they will see the Antichrist Beast first WILL see him first.

Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Pretrib believers, for the most part, are looking for His coming any day. We are EXPECTING Him.
I cannot see how someone who expects to see the Beast first can be expecting Christ any time and be looking for Him.

Is there a confirming verse?

2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

A question about the rapture

Continuing Historicist

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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