A question about sin

[wayfaring man]

Scripture records Judas as repenting ... but apparently to no avial -

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. <-----> Matthew 27:3-5

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said. <-----> Matthew 26:24

Also Peter " denied " The Lord , which is distinct from " betraying " The Lord , except , unless , or until denials reach a tantamount level of incorrigability ; as mentioned previously in earlier post , then they can indeed become one and the same with the finality , of no place left to repent effectually .

wm

 

[hsilgne]

He then informed me that the whole belief about suicide being unforgivable is from the Catholic denomination. As he explained, Catholics believe a person cannot enter heaven with unrepented sin. So, a person who commits suicide has taken their own life (murder) without having a chance to ask forgiveness; therefore, that person suffers an eternity in hell.

Here is a summation of what the Catholic Church teaches about suicide. From the Catholic Catechism...

I highlited some points which I feel are important to remember.

Suicide
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him.
It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life.
We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls.
We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us.
It is not ours to dispose of.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life.
It is gravely contrary to the just love of self.
It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations.
Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal.
Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

 

[Ainustorm]

Here is a summation of what the Catholic Church teaches about suicide. From the Catholic Catechism...

I highlited some points which I feel are important to remember.

Suicide
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him.
It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life.
We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls.
We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us.
It is not ours to dispose of.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life.
It is gravely contrary to the just love of self.
It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations.
Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal.
Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

We cant pray people out of their sin... where is that in scripture. It is appointed to man to die then to the judgement (from bible). Once we are saved we are saved... our sins do not commend us to spiritual death. Some sin could lead to a physical death. Suicide is a selfish act. I agree that God is sovereign over life. By us committing suicide is taking life out of God's ordained plan for each of us. We decide when to die... when God askes us to give our lives to Him. Times will get tuff... and it may seem there is no way out. But God never said give up... He states He will be with us all the way. If that person didnt commit suicide things might have changed, and they could have been used by God for some reason in the future. Once we die, our sould stands before God... there will be no support from friends and family. Only your life on earth, Jesus and God. Only by Jesus will we be counted as innocent. Our prayers here wont matter for a man's eternal statis. We dont accept Christ we go to Hades, if we accept Christ we will be in Heaven. That is final... there will be no other chance to make it to heaven but on earth.

 

[hsilgne]

We cant pray people out of their sin... where is that in scripture. It is appointed to man to die then to the judgement (from bible). Once we are saved we are saved... our sins do not commend us to spiritual death. Some sin could lead to a physical death. Suicide is a selfish act. I agree that God is sovereign over life. By us committing suicide is taking life out of God's ordained plan for each of us. We decide when to die... when God askes us to give our lives to Him. Times will get tuff... and it may seem there is no way out. But God never said give up... He states He will be with us all the way. If that person didnt commit suicide things might have changed, and they could have been used by God for some reason in the future. Once we die, our sould stands before God... there will be no support from friends and family. Only your life on earth, Jesus and God. Only by Jesus will we be counted as innocent. Our prayers here wont matter for a man's eternal statis. We dont accept Christ we go to Hades, if we accept Christ we will be in Heaven. That is final... there will be no other chance to make it to heaven but on earth.

Did you want to debate on Catholic teaching or did you want to know what the Church teaches in this regard? I thought it was the later.

If it's a debate, then I can foresee that you and I will go round and round, with no end. I presume you believe Scripture to be the sole provider of divine revalation - I don't. Further, the bible that you use, IMO, is incomplete... so even if I did show you the scripture that supports prayers for the dead, you will discount most of it because a few men who lived 500 years ago told you to.

Not to mention that any reference to purgatory in your bible will also be discounted by you because of the false interpretation that has been drilled into your head.

the whole belief about suicide being unforgivable is from the Catholic denomination. As he explained, Catholics believe a person cannot enter heaven with unrepented sin.

But your friend is right... it was used by the Roman Catholics... to scare their followers.

Again I will quote a portion of the teaching from the catechism so that perhaps you may recognize that you shouldn't believe everything you hear. In fact most rhetoric that is spewed about the Catholic church is just that - rhetoric.

Here you go...

"We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance."

Now does that sound to you like the Church teaches that anyone who comits suicide automatically goes to hell?

Does that mean the Church believes that every person who has comitted suicide makes it to heaven... no. Does it mean the Church believes that God is Just... yes. And that is where we lay our hope for all souls that are passed from this life... in God.

Peace.

 

[AxionEsti]

God judges, but if a person would have a chance at repentence and confession, they should do it.

 

[AxionEsti]

That is final... there will be no other chance to make it to heaven but on earth.

How do you know this? We also pray for those who die, but this is for God to remember them. God is the final judge, of course. I think you have taken it out of proportion, and forgive me if I misunderstand you.

 

[Ainustorm]

Did you want to debate on Catholic teaching or did you want to know what the Church teaches in this regard? I thought it was the later.

If it's a debate, then I can foresee that you and I will go round and round, with no end. I presume you believe Scripture to be the sole provider of divine revalation - I don't. Further, the bible that you use, IMO, is incomplete... so even if I did show you the scripture that supports prayers for the dead, you will discount most of it because a few men who lived 500 years ago told you to.

Not to mention that any reference to purgatory in your bible will also be discounted by you because of the false interpretation that has been drilled into your head.



Again I will quote a portion of the teaching from the catechism so that perhaps you may recognize that you shouldn't believe everything you hear. In fact most rhetoric that is spewed about the Catholic church is just that - rhetoric.

Here you go...

"We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance."

Now does that sound to you like the Church teaches that anyone who comits suicide automatically goes to hell?

Does that mean the Church believes that every person who has comitted suicide makes it to heaven... no. Does it mean the Church believes that God is Just... yes. And that is where we lay our hope for all souls that are passed from this life... in God.

Peace.

Well i learned the majority of my Catholic knowledge from my parents who were born into the religion. They learned about Jesus being their savior at age 16.

You telling me that the Almighty God cant protect His word from bein distorded. That He cant keep it complete?

That is belittling God big time. That statement above... i read it before. Scripture states there is no second chance to repentance. We dont need to repent to keep our salvation once we are saved. Sinning still has consequences... but we dont lose our salvation for sinning after salvation. Suicide is a sin, i never said you will go to hell, from what the statement states above... God will consider forgiving you... and if you read further in that same subject... we can pray them thru. What power does prayer have over a God. Our works dont have anythin to do with our rights for repentence nor salvation. We cant pray for people thru... Prayer is communicating with God. It isnt some ritualistic action we do to win favor with God. He wants us to pray so we can talk with Him.

Do you believe in good works gets you to heaven?

I use, New King James or King James bible... if you are wondering. Hey share that verse my mind is open. I will check it out. I am not closed minded to scripture, trust me... i was once like that. I dont take from what some preacher said, i check with scripture first.

I dont believe in purgatory, but i do believe Abraham's bosom (is the Purgatory you believe in) did exist. But that all changed after Christ died. Where now we go directly to heaven... because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. Jesus... bridged the path from death to the presense of God. Now we dont have to be in Abraham's bosom.

As for Catholic chruch, maybe you should check your history... and realize how it was derived as. If you would like me to share of what i know, i gladly would.

 

[Ainustorm]

How do you know this? We also pray for those who die, but this is for God to remember them. God is the final judge, of course. I think you have taken it out of proportion, and forgive me if I misunderstand you.

At end times there is only 2 judgements. Read Revolations
1) Those did not accept Christ get judged for there sin, and get casted in the lake of fire.

2) Those who did accept Christ get judge for the work they did or did not do for Christ while on earth. Of which we get a crown for, then we put that crown at the feet of Jesus.

Scripture states... it is once a man to die then the judgement... Not one can commeth before the Father, but by me (Jesus). John 3:16.

 

[AxionEsti]

At end times there is only 2 judgements. Read Revolations
1) Those did not accept Christ get judged for there sin, and get casted in the lake of fire.

2) Those who did accept Christ get judge for the work they did or did not do for Christ while on earth. Of which we get a crown for, then we put that crown at the feet of Jesus.

Scripture states... it is once a man to die then the judgement... Not one can commeth before the Father, but by me (Jesus). John 3:16.

We do not know for sure EVER the state of the heart of a person when they die. Only God knows.

 

[Ainustorm]

We do not know for sure EVER the state of the heart of a person when they die. Only God knows.

I never said i knew the state of a man's heart... Either you accept christ or not. But there is still at the end times 2 judgements... its in scripture.

 

[AxionEsti]

We dont need to repent to keep our salvation once we are saved.

I have never believed what you are saying here is the truth.

Please read the book of James, and don't dismiss it as nothing. I have heard Christians tell me this was too hard to do. It is not, and repentence is necessary for salvation. Jesus said it too.

Doers--Not Hearers Only
21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

 

[hsilgne]

Well i learned the majority of my Catholic knowledge from my parents who were born into the religion. They learned about Jesus being their savior at age 16.

They were born Catholics yet they did not learn that Jesus was their saviour until they were 16? Hmmmm...

You telling me that the Almighty God cant protect His word from bein distorded. That He cant keep it complete?

No, I didn't say that. He has kept it complete... what I said is you do not use the one that He has kept complete. That's not Gods issue... it's yours.

Do you believe in good works gets you to heaven?

No. And neither does the Catholic Church. Is this another misconception you have been handed?

As for Catholic chruch, maybe you should check your history... and realize how it was derived as. If you would like me to share of what i know, i gladly would.

Sure. Share what you "know". I have "checked the history". Have you? From what I can gather thus far - you have not but instead adhere to the many false misconceptions the evil one perpetuates through out our world. I suggest a new thread in the appropriate forum. We've side tracked this thread enough. If you do share your "knowledge" with me in another thread, just pm me the link.

Peace.

 

[AxionEsti]

I never said i knew the state of a man's heart... Either you accept christ or not. But there is still at the end times 2 judgements... its in scripture.

That's the point, one does not know the state of another person's heart. So we pray for them, even after death.

 

[AxionEsti]

James 5:16*Confess [your] trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

We are to care for one another and pray.

 

[Ainustorm]

They were born Catholics yet they did not learn that Jesus was their saviour until they were 16? Hmmmm...





No, I didn't say that. He has kept it complete... what I said is you do not use the one that He has kept complete. That's not Gods issue... it's yours.




No. And neither does the Catholic Church. Is this another misconception you have been handed?







Sure. Share what you "know". I have "checked the history". Have you? From what I can gather thus far - you have not but instead adhere to the many false misconceptions the evil one perpetuates through out our world. I suggest a new thread in the appropriate forum. We've side tracked this thread enough. If you do share your "knowledge" with me in another thread, just pm me the link.

Peace.

I am sorry brother, didnt want to get ya mad... i was being sincere in my question. Because it is what i was taught. I even talked with my parents... they said what you say is true catholic... is not what they were taught. But the true history of the Roman Catholic church is not how you are sayin it is now. I dont want to debate... that would lead to anger and disliking one another. Are we cool? God Bless!

 

[hsilgne]

I am sorry brother, didnt want to get ya mad... i was being sincere in my question. Because it is what i was taught. I even talked with my parents... they said what you say is true catholic... is not what they were taught. But the true history of the Roman Catholic church is not how you are sayin it is now.

That's ok. This is the wrong forum for this discussion... sorry for my temper - I'm working on it.
BEfore returning to my faith I was anti-catholic/anti-church/anti-God. That's changed now - praise the Lord.
BUT I will say, perhaps you may consider investigating the "true" history of the church for yourself rather than taking your parents word for it - no disrespect intended. So many people have so many misconceptions, and yes even proclaimed Catholics, but especially former Catholics and anti Catholic types. Sure there were/are bad people in the Church - that's never gonna change. There isn't a denomination out there that can claim otherwise. But an objective look reveals that the Dogma of the Church remains in tact from when Jesus formed it. A start would be reading the early church fathers writings.

Are we cool?

... as a cucumber.

Peace.

 

[BelindaP]

Just a gentle reminder. The Forum-Specific Rules prohibit debating, so please remember to address the OP and not one another.