A question about Purgatory.

concretecamper said:

Yes, that has been posted countless time in CF. However, no one has ever been able to produce scriptural backup

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2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.


Matthew 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:

JoeP222w said:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.


Matthew 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:

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Yes, these have been referenced many times. However they don't come close to describing the Word of God as you did "ultimate infallible authority"

JoeP222w said:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.


Matthew 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:

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You do realize that "all Scripture" referenced in that letter was the OT? There was as yet no NT.

And all of the OT is indeed profitable. But it is not the full measure of knowledge we have received from God.

Rather, at the time of the Apostles ...

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God , which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. (1 Tim 3:15)

The Church was the Body through which the teaching of the Apostles was given, which verified their teaching, and eventually recognized so as to collect and canonize the NT.

There are no NT Scriptures which say the Bible is the ultimate authority, because there was no Bible. However for us (the Orthodox Church) I should point out that the Scriptures are indeed the central part of the deposit of faith received from the Apostles, and nothing may contradict them. So the Church can't and doesn't.

Bob Crowley said:

If there is no Purgatory, then we have the absurd situation of a serial murderer (or an Adolf Hitler to take a more extreme example) who makes a sincere deathbed confession, and then waltzes straight into heaven, without in his life ever having made any attempt at personal santification.

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The thief on the cross simply asked Jesus to "remember me" and Jesus told him "Today you will be with me"

That's the wonderfulness of "whosoever calls on me will be saved"

No need for cleansing prior to salvation, no need to quote the "sinners prayer" or attend classes. The thief wasn't even baptized. There is no holding area after death according to the Bible. Luke 16 makes that clear.

tp552 said:

The thief on the cross simply asked Jesus to "remember me" and Jesus told him "Today you will be with me"

That's the wonderfulness of "whosoever calls on me will be saved"

No need for cleansing prior to salvation, no need to quote the "sinners prayer" or attend classes. The thief wasn't even baptized. There is no holding area after death according to the Bible. Luke 16 makes that clear.

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The thief on the cross, in my opinion, did his purgatory on the cross, nails through wrists and feet, in immense agony, while the mocking crowd looked on.

Moreover, the agony didn't cease when he made his confession of faith. He went right on hanging there, struggling for breath, screaming in agony, until the Roman soldiers made the gentle gesture of breaking his legs with a sledge hammer, so that he suffocated in even more agony for the last few minutes of his life.

His salvation was NOT cost free, and it was not cheap grace.

He was literally crucified with Christ, and "picked up His cross and carried it." There is also no mention of being a murderer, but a thief. He may even have been a thief by necessity, but we're not told.

That's not the case with some serial murderer who is in a modern Western jail, who has made no pretence of carrying a cross. To take a really extreme example, take Adolf Hitler. Suppose he'd repented at the last minute in the bunker in Berlin, gotten down on his knees and confessed Christ.

Think God's going to just let him waltz into heaven while millions of his victims, who may not have repented of their sins, cannot?

I'll stick with Purgatory. NOTHING gets into heaven unless its perfect, or Heaven would cease to be Heaven.

Bob Crowley said:

There's a pretty good explanation of the reality and need for Purgatory in this link.

Catholic Bible 101

If there is no Purgatory, then we have the absurd situation of a serial murderer (or an Adolf Hitler to take a more extreme example) who makes a sincere deathbed confession, and then waltzes straight into heaven, without in his life ever having made any attempt at personal santification.

HItler's rages, his blaming of other people, his cruelty, his vindictiveness - all is suddenly sweetness and light, without his ever having made one ounce of effort to reform his character, other than a last minute realisation of what a mongrel he'd really been.

No problem - just come straight in!

NOBODY gets into heaven unless they are literally perfect, and this means purfication after death if necessary. Christ's death on the cross means we are not condemned - it doesn't mean we are automatically made pure. I don't know about you, but I think I sin every day, usually in a venial way, but sometimes more seriously.

The man who wasn't even properly dressed for the heavenly wedding got thrown out on his ear. I believe that parable at least contained an inbuilt reference to Purgatory.

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Is a simple ‘deathbed confession’ the same thing as repentance? I’m not sure if this idea holds up, especially in reference to someone whose whole life has taken a completely different direction. Psychologically a person can go beyond repentance and get hardwired in ways of thinking and being that just confessing won’t change. On the other hand, if a person is genuinely convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sin, has their eyes opened in faith, repents and accepts Jesus, then there is no difference from one person to the next - we’ve all fallen short, how short is more about the cumulative psychological affects of sin on a person’s ability to respond to Jesus I think.

Bob Crowley said:

The thief on the cross, in my opinion, did his purgatory on the cross, nails through wrists and feet, in immense agony, while the mocking crowd looked on.

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That's an analogy...or it's a comparison to Purgatory...or it's an opinion expressed to the effect that what Purgatory exists for (according to the Roman Catholic Church) can sometimes be accomplished in this life rather than in the afterlife. But it is not Purgatory itself.

Albion said:

That's an analogy...or it's a comparison to Purgatory...or it's an opinion expressed to the effect that what Purgatory exists for (according to the Roman Catholic Church) can sometimes be accomplished in this life rather than in the afterlife. But it is not Purgatory itself.

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Albion, purgation is a lifelong process. I think we both agree to this, what the Orthodox call theosis. We are called to become holy. This is not a momentary transformation but a process. This purgation is not completed until we are perfected and in Heaven. So how does one get from a non-perfect being at death to a perfect being in Heaven? This is the first step, not trying to define tightly what that process actually entails.

tz620q said:

Albion, purgation is a lifelong process.

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That might be right. However, it doesn't say anything about the doctrine of Purgatory, if it is scriptural, how it supposedly works, who goes there, or why.

So how does one get from a non-perfect being at death to a perfect being in Heaven?

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No one knows the answer to that question, and God chose not to reveal it in his word. Honestly, I do not see how it would make any difference to us, one way or the other, as concerns how we are to live our lives. How we are prepared for heaven after death could be an elaborate process or something accomplished in the twinkling of an eye. I am confident, however, that there is much that will be revealed to the soul after death which we cannot even imagine here and now.

Albion said:

That might be right. However, it doesn't say anything about the doctrine of Purgatory, if it is scriptural, how it supposedly works, who goes there, or why.



No one knows the answer to that question, and God chose not to reveal it in his word. Honestly, I do not see how it would make any difference to us, one way or the other, as concerns how we are to live our lives. How we are prepared for heaven after death could be an elaborate process or something accomplished in the twinkling of an eye. I am confident, however, that there is much that will be revealed to the soul after death which we cannot even imagine here and now.

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The Catholic teaching about Purgatory in Catechism paragraph 1030 defines it as the following:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting

"III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

Do you believe this is true? To me to somehow wrap us in Christ's Blood and declare that we are perfect before death because our imperfections are ignored is a logical non-starter. A cannot equal not A.

tz620q said:

The Catholic teaching about Purgatory in Catechism paragraph 1030 defines it as the following:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting

"III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

Do you believe this is true? To me to somehow wrap us in Christ's Blood and declare that we are perfect before death because our imperfections are ignored is a logical non-starter. A cannot equal not A.

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Some parts of the Catechism‘s commentary about the Catholic Church's teaching on Purgatory are no doubt correct; but Purgatory itself is neither logically necessary nor Scriptural.

The Catechism is only a primer, in any case. It isn't intended to cover all that the Church teaches about Purgatory.

Albion said:

Purgatory itself is neither logically necessary nor Scriptural.

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To prove that it is not logically necessary would require showing evidence that either the imperfect can go to Heaven or that we are perfected while on earth. Otherwise at some point between earth and heaven we have to transition from imperfect to perfect. I can acknowledge your viewpoint as it is a mystery how this is done; but cannot see how you can prove it is not necessary.

When being a new creation in Christ, God says He makes all things new. There is no purgatorial suffering after death for the working off your old sins to be made worthy in God's sight to enter life and heaven.

2 Corinthians 5
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Purgatory keeps regarding believers according to their FLESH.
Purgatory is a lying demonic doctrine.

What does exist is the judgement seat of Christ and everyone's works tested by fire. But the christian is present with the Lord when they are absent from the body, there is no separation in a place of purgatorial suffering.

2 Corinthians 5 New King James Version (NKJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

The Judgment Seat of Christ
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.

Johnboy53 said:

Does the Bible speak about Purgatory? My friend's that are Catholic has told me about this place between Heaven and Hell.

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Absolutely No. There's no such thing as purgatory. Here's a link with some references you can research:
http://www.equip.org/article/is-purgatory-a-biblical-concept/

This is a created doctrine...and dangerous! It misleads people to thinking they have to purge their sin by going through purgatory. Christ paid sins penalty for every believer. We who belong to God do not receive some place of purging for our after death. If we have to do that, what was the purpose of God sacrificing the Lord Jesus for our sins.

ebedmelech said:

Absolutely No. There's no such thing as purgatory. Here's a link with some references you can research:
http://www.equip.org/article/is-purgatory-a-biblical-concept/

This is a created doctrine...and dangerous! It misleads people to thinking they have a second chance to gain heaven by going through purging when they don't.

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While I won't defend purgatory (Orthodoxy does not believe the doctrine) ... I don't think it's accurate to say it misleads people into thinking they have a second chance. Catholics teach that it is only for the "saved" persons, not that it offers a loophole for the "unsaved".

Btw, your dog is very cute.

~Anastasia~ said:

While I won't defend purgatory (Orthodoxy does not believe the doctrine) ... I don't think it's accurate to say it misleads people into thinking they have a second chance. Catholics teach that it is only for the "saved" persons, not that it offers a loophole for the "unsaved".

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You're correct, and I will correct my post.

Here's the point though...Christ paid the penalty for sin once and for all. When one is saved they don't become sinless. When we sin we are convicted by the Holy Spirit and we confess our sin. Also it is God that brings correction in our life when we sin after salvation. We cannot sin with impunity because we're saved. Hebrews 12 makes this clear. There is no place of purging our sins after death.

This is why I say

~Anastasia~ said:

Btw, your dog is very cute.

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Thank you, He's a Lhasa Apso.

Johnboy53 said:

Does the Bible speak about Purgatory?

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Only as an ungodly concept from outside religions , to avoid and not study nor care about at all.

The word bible does not appear in Scriptures. Neither does the word Trinity, nor does the word purgatory, but there are passages that imply it:

Luke 12:47-48 – when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 – in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 – Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 – every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory

2 Tim. 1:16-18 – Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 – Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:27 – nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven.

Luke 23:43 - when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasised with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 – works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. - Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

Jude 1:23 – the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 – Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Etc.

Matt. to Rev. - So note that not all Christian doctrines are explicit in Scripture. Non-Catholic Christians should ask themselves why they accept the Church’s teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings regarding the Eucharist, Mary, the saints, and of course purgatory?

oOKnights TemplarOo said:

The word bible does not appear in Scriptures. Neither does the word Trinity, nor does the word purgatory, but there are passages that imply it:

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But the Bible is not forbidden in Scriptures nor by Scriptures.
Take all Scripture when seeking the Truth.
Making false ideas appear true by pulling out some, and by ignoring others that show it is false, doesn't work God's Plan nor God's Purpose.

ebedmelech said:

You're correct, and I will correct my post.

Here's the point though...Christ paid the penalty for sin once and for all. When one is saved they don't become sinless. When we sin we are convicted by the Holy Spirit and we confess our sin. Also it is God that brings correction in our life when we sin after salvation. We cannot sin with impunity because we're saved. Hebrews 12 makes this clear. There is no place of purging our sins after death.

This is why I say

Thank you, He's a Lhasa Apso.

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My sister has Lhasa Apsos.

Orthodoxy would agree especially that there is no indication of a "place" for purging sins.

I won't speak for Catholic teaching. It simply doesn't line up with ours, as it appears to be punishment-based, and has both temporal and eternal consequences for sin. Our approaches are really just different.

But Othodoxy would say that we really must necessarily be purged of anything within us that is not pure. These things that warp the soul to varying degrees and drag us down are pretty much always the result of sin, so they are connected in that way. Ideally we spend our lives being purged of these things. But whatever is left at the end of our lives must be cleansed. This we acknowledge. We must be made REALLY pure, not just a positional definition. However, we do not know how God does this, precisely when, or how long it takes. We have no such teaching, because it was not given to us to know. Perhaps it might even be different for different people. We just don't know any such thing, so we don't teach it.

I know this concern is avoided by many Protestant denominations, and they oppose purgatory on the basis of believing it will happen in an instant, which is pretty much the opposite of purgatory. But we (Orthodox) don't really know for sure either way, so ... we just focus on trying to cooperate with the grace of God in this life, since that's what we are given to do.

Though there are other objections we have to purgatory, but I don't think I'll go into them here.

I'm not seeking to argue with you or change your mind, just explaining a bit how all of our views can compare with each other. And you might already know this, but sometimes it clarifies things for lurkers.

God be with you.