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A query about SBC teachings...

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Lockheed

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I found this survey at the Founder's Ministry site. I hope it might shed some light on historic Baptist beliefs and perhaps get some discussion going.

Are Most SBC Churches Faithful to Their Heritage?

When the original charter of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858, every professor at the institution was required to teach according to the Abstract of Principles below. This requirement remains today.
We are interested to know whether you believe these doctrines are still being taught in Southern Baptist churches today.

http://www.founders.org/abs_surv.html

 

Flynmonkie

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Interesting survey, I found that all these things are taught with the exception of a specific Lords day, every day is the Lords day however there should be a day of fellowship, worship and rest (IMVHO) If that is a Sunday...so be it. Ours has been on Saturdays at times due to work restraints.

Another thing that I found interesting.....for the Judgment, that unbelievers are sent to "eternal punishment".....rather than "hell - fire and brimstone eternal fire etc". I feel strongly that hell is a total separation from God (have more study to do on this but has been on the back burner for more pressing studies) and I am noticing many Southern Baptist Preachers that refer to this as such. So the concept of Hell was never in the guidelines of being taught I wonder? (not that it truly makes a difference - total seperation from God is all I need to hear!! But just an observation based on my own studies)

Very interesting. Thanks for posting!
 
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Flynmonkie

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Something else I noticed.... everything seemed to be the same today except the concept of election
V. Election
Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life -- not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ -- in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.

Only 39% of the people felt it is taught today. 15% says it is not taught....and 20% said it was taught against. And 26% said they did not know?!?!?!?

Wow, out of 9k people 26% do not know if the above statement is taught in their church. 15% say it is not taught. I wonder if it is because it is not elaborated more in the question?
 
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Lockheed

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I feel strongly that hell is a total separation from God

I find this concept to be an odd, more recent development. Perhaps you might explain further. By "total separation" do you mean, alive but not in God's presence, alive in torment, alive in a place where God does not exist or annhilated... or something else entirely?
 
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Flynmonkie

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I mean a total "to dust" sorta thing. IOW...a complete annihilation...

Like I said just to be clear, it to me is a secondary issue and I usually do not get too involved as that I have much more studies to do. It has not been an area I have delved too deeply in.

It simply makes no sense to me in scripture comparison to say that Hell is a fiery torment......In the earlier research and discussions I have had. I had been approached with information regarding the topic that seemed to direct this idea to Pagan ideas in translation. I have been enlightened to some truths about my beloved KJV and minor translation issues. I don’t have enough time to gather all the material I have collected to further this point right now. But would not mind conversing about it. I guess that is why I mentioned it. Based on the question in point, how this was phrased seemed interesting to me. If it was in fact the original idea dated from the 1800s school of thought. Or if it was “Millennium” language.

No question in my mind Hell is NOT a good thing. But the translations between Hell, Sheol, grave etc…leave much to be desired it seems
 
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Lockheed

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It simply makes no sense to me in scripture comparison to say that Hell is a fiery torment......
NASB:
Matt 13:42
and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 16:23-24
"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
No question in my mind Hell is NOT a good thing. But the translations between Hell, Sheol, grave etc…leave much to be desired it seems
Agreed.
 
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Gwenyfur

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Flynmonkie said:
I mean a total "to dust" sorta thing. IOW...a complete annihilation...

Like I said just to be clear, it to me is a secondary issue and I usually do not get too involved as that I have much more studies to do. It has not been an area I have delved too deeply in.

It simply makes no sense to me in scripture comparison to say that Hell is a fiery torment......In the earlier research and discussions I have had. I had been approached with information regarding the topic that seemed to direct this idea to Pagan ideas in translation. I have been enlightened to some truths about my beloved KJV and minor translation issues. I don’t have enough time to gather all the material I have collected to further this point right now. But would not mind conversing about it. I guess that is why I mentioned it. Based on the question in point, how this was phrased seemed interesting to me. If it was in fact the original idea dated from the 1800s school of thought. Or if it was “Millennium” language.

No question in my mind Hell is NOT a good thing. But the translations between Hell, Sheol, grave etc…leave much to be desired it seems
Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

James 3:6
6And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

I am probably in the minority of believers that takes scripture literally....
It speaks of hell fire too often for it to just be a separation from God....though the thought of that alone is enough to make me fall on my knees in gratitude of the grace He's given me...but it's not separation alone....it's fiery torment...else why would Jesus refer to it as "hell fire".

If we don't believe in the hell fire of hell, then we are calling Him a liar...

just my 2 cents ;)
 
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Flynmonkie

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:sigh: Now see this is why I did not want to get into this discussion.

I have not called God a liar, so lets get that straight. :preach:

:) I do not mind conversing or discussing this issue or about my research on this at all. However, I do not want to debate the issue, as that as I have said before....I am still in study. This is a secondary to me as that no matter....eternal firey torment or not - A seperation from God is enough for me. :eek:

I am not one that is scared into my love of God. I love and Fear Him out of pure respect.

Discussions I have had with others has led me to the difference between the OT Hebrew definitions of "hell" or "grave" or "Sheol" as opposed to the Greek New Testament translations.

What started this for me was this verse......

2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned UP.

After further investigation….I found other instances that seemingly made Gods word contradict. And we know that is not possible. It is not a matter of “If” Hell exists; it is a matter of “what” Hell consists of.

I do not wish to derail Lockheed’s thread unless he wishes, if you start another thread I would be happy to discuss it there. :)
 
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Lockheed

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Flynmonkie said:
What started this for me was this verse......

2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned UP.

After further investigation….I found other instances that seemingly made Gods word contradict. And we know that is not possible. It is not a matter of “If” Hell exists; it is a matter of “what” Hell consists of.

I do not wish to derail Lockheed’s thread unless he wishes, if you start another thread I would be happy to discuss it there. :)
I for one do not believe that you've called God a liar, however, this is an acceptable place to have this discussion. Perhaps you might explain why you believe 2 Pet 3:10 denies an enduring, torturous, firey post-judgment experience for the wicked and bring up your other concerns? Perhaps make a new thread?
 
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Flynmonkie

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Well, like I said before...this had been a side study, picking up information here and there. Such as the way this question was posed in the survey. Instead of saying firey torment, it said Seperation from God.

What started this was in a discussion I had with another member. Tooth and nail I fought the idea each time his refute was consistant. So that started me looking further into it. But with other pressing studies - this really hasn't been very important.

The first thing that jumped out at me is the verse, it claims "burnt up". What happens when something burns up? Poof...gone. If we were to burn up? Pain suffering but *poof*....we would be gone too.

I need to get some things done tonight but I will try to get back to this ASAP. :)
 
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Flynmonkie

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Ok, first of all a person had sent this to me, findings unknown. I did research on where it might have come from, and cannot seem to find it. If you do, then please let me know and I will attribute it to the "originator".

But this will give you a good start :)


Not sure :confuse: where I found this one, so-o-o, kudos go out to anon ...

Did you know that many popular ideas about hell actually sprang from ancient pagan myths and not from the Word of God?

In the following quiz, see if you can spot the biblical truth and the traditions of men. After the quiz, you'll find the correct answers -- and references to appropriate biblical passages for further study.
1. According to the Bible, the human being is:

a. a mortal body housing an immortal soul;
b. a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury;
c. a perishable creature wholly dependent on God for existence.


2. Two historical events which biblical writers use most often to illustrate God's
final judgment against the wicked are:

a. expulsion from Eden and the collapse of the Tower of Babel;
b. the fall of Jerusalem and the defeat of the Spanish Armada;
c. the Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.


3. Based on an actual event, the Bible uses the expression "eternal fire" to signify:

a. fire that destroys forever (Sodom and Gomorrah);
b. fire that cannot destroy what is put in it (Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego);
c. fire that continues to burn indefinitely (the Burning Bush of Moses).


4. The "brimstone" in "fire and brimstone" is:

a. a symbol of terrible torture;
b. burning sulfur that suffocates and destroys;
c. a preserving agent that keeps someone alive forever.


5. Throughout the Bible, "gnashing of teeth" denotes:

a. excruciating pain and agony;
b. gingivitis;
c. extreme anger and hostility.


6. When the Bible portrays "smoke rising" to warn of judgment,
we should think of:

a. people suffering horrible pain;
b. a completed desolation or annihilation;
c. a closed arena when cigarettes were still allowed.


7. When Scripture speaks of smoke rising "forever," it signifies:

a. a destruction that will be irreversible;
b. conscious torment that never ends;
c. a battery-powered rabbit that short circuited.


8. The "worm" in the expression "worm that dies not" is:

a. a maggot that feeds on something dead;
b. a symbol for a pained conscience;
c. a figure of speech standing for everlasting agony in torment.


9. Throughout the Bible, the expression "unquenchable fire" always signifies:

a. fire which burns forever but never burns up what is put in it;
b. fire which comes from a volcano;
c. fire which is irresistible and therefore consumes entirely.


10. The Old Testament's final description of the end of sinners states that:

a. God will put fire and worms in their flesh and they will feel their pain forever;
b. they will be ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous;
c. neither of the above.


11. John the Baptist warned of "unquenchable fire," by which Jesus would:

a. burn up the "chaff";
b. torment the lost forever and never let them die;
c. purge sinners of all evil and then send them to heaven.


12. Jesus compared the end of the wicked to:

a. someone burning chaff, dead trees or weeds;
b. a house destroyed by a hurricane or someone crushed under a boulder;
c. all the above.


13. Jesus personally described Gehenna (hell) as a place where:

a. God is able to destroy both soul and body;
b. God will perpetuate the soul in everlasting agony;
c. Satan reigns over his evil subjects and tortures damned humans.


14. The phrase "eternal punishment" signifies:

a. punishment which occurs in the Age to Come rather than during this life;
b. eternal life in horrible agony and pain;
c. punishment which has everlasting results;
d. (a) and (c) but not (b).


15. The context and "punch line" of the story of the Rich Man and
Lazarus talk about:

a. what happens to the wicked after resurrection and judgment;
b. the urgency of responding to God while there is opportunity;
c. details about the "intermediate state" between death and resurrection.


16. Throughout his writings, Paul says that the lost will:

a. go to hell and burn alive forever;
b. die, perish, and be punished with eternal destruction;
c. go to heaven but hate every minute of it.


17. The New Testament uses the adjective "immortal" to describe:

a. the soul of every person, good or evil;
b. the resurrection bodies of the saved but not of the lost;
c. no human being now or hereafter.


18. The Jewish-Christian books of Hebrews and James contrast salvation with:

a. unending conscious pain;
b. inescapable destruction;
c. going "gently into that good night."


19. Peter's epistles say that the lost will:

a. be burned to ashes like Sodom and Gomorrah;
b. perish like brute beasts;
c. both the above.


20. John interprets his vision in Revelation of a "lake of fire" as:

a. a picture of indescribable, everlasting torture;
b. a place Eskimos might like to visit;
c. the second death.

..

.

.

.

.

.

1. I hope you marked (c). According to the Bible, the human being is a perishable creature wholly dependent on God for existence.

The notion that your mortal body houses some kind of immortal soul sprang from the pagan Greeks and was popularized by the philosophers Socrates and Plato. The "tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury" line originated with Shakespeare's fictional Lady MacBeth, not with the Word of God.

Genesis 1:7; Psalms 103:14-16; Romans 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:16.


2. Again the correct answer is (c). Biblical writers point back to the Flood and to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah to illustrate the fate awaiting the lost.

Adam and Eve walked away alive after their expulsion from Eden, something no one cast into hell will ever do, and the Bible does not say the Tower of Babel collapsed. Jerusalem's fall and the defeat of Spain's navy armada don't qualify here, either.

On the Flood, see Genesis 6-9 and 2 Peter 3:5-7. Concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, see Genesis 19:24-29 and 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 7.


3. In the Bible, the expression "eternal fire" signifies choice (a), fire that destroys forever, as with Sodom and Gomorrah.

Popular tradition says hell will be like Moses' Burning Bush which never went out, or like the non-consuming furnace into which their enemies threw Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. However, the Bible warns that hell is a consuming fire which destroys both body and soul.

Jude 7; Matthew 25:41; Matthew 10:28.


4. This time (b) is biblical. The "brimstone" in the expression "fire and brimstone" is burning sulfur that suffocates and destroys.

The figure comes from the destruction of Sodom, which was incinerated without a trace. God is love, not an eternal torturer. The Bible really means it when it says the wages of sin is death!

Genesis 19:24-25, 29; Deuteronomy 29:22-23; Psalms 11:6; Ezekiel 38:22; Revelation 14:10; Romans 6:23.


5. Surprise! Throughout the Bible, "gnashing of teeth" denotes (c) extreme anger and hostility.

The picture of people grinding their teeth in unending torment owes more to Dante's Inferno than it does to the Bible. We learn about gingivitis, of course, from a television commercial for a brand of mouthwash.

Job 16:9; Psalms 35:16; Psalms 37:12; Psalms 112:10; Lamentations 2:16; Acts 7:54; Matthew 13:43, 49-50; Matthew 22:13-14; Matthew 24:50-51; Matthew 25:30; Luke 13:28.


6. Again (b) is biblical. Smoke rising symbolizes a completed desolation or annihilation, if we let Scripture interpret itself.

This figure of speech also originates with the annihilation of Sodom and Gomorrah, and appears in both the Old and New Testaments afterward. Hell might well involve conscious pain, but conscious suffering will be according to God's perfect justice and will stop with the death of both body and soul in hell. (You didn't guess the one about cigarettes anyway, did you?)

Genesis 19:27-28; Isaiah 34:10-15; Revelation 14:11; Revelation 18:17-18; Malachi 4:1-3.


7. See for yourself! When Scripture speaks of smoke rising "forever," it signifies (a) destruction that will be irreversible.

That battery-powered rabbit came from the television commercials -- it is no more biblical than the other choice, the notion of unending conscious torment.

Isaiah 34:10-15; Revelation 14:11.


8. Another big surprise for most folks! The "worm" in the expression "worm that dies not" is (a) a maggot that feeds on something dead until there is nothing left on which to feed.

The idea of everlasting agony in torment originated with former pagan Greek philosophers who also thought human beings had a "soul" which will never die. More tender-hearted traditionalists later defined the "worm" as a pained conscience. If they had read Isaiah 66:24 in context, they could have avoided the confusion to start with.

Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:47-48.


9. This time (c) is correct. The expression "unquenchable fire" in the Bible always signifies fire which cannot be resisted and which therefore consumes entirely.

Long after Christ, certain church fathers invented the doctrine of hell as a fire which burns forever but never burns up what is put in it.

Isaiah 1:31; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 17:27; Ezekiel 20:47-48; Amos 5:5-6; Matthew 3:12. Contrast human fire which can be quenched or put out, mentioned in Hebrews 11:34.


10. No surprise here if you chose (b). The Old Testament's final book describes the end of sinners as ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous.

Long after Malachi, the apocryphal book of Judith introduced the non-scriptural idea that God will put fire and worms in people's flesh so they will feel pain forever.

Malachi 4:1-3.


11. John the Baptist warned of "unquenchable fire," by which Jesus would (a) burn up the "chaff". Not surprising, since fire that cannot be extinguished (quenched) does exactly what we expect fire to do!

Missing this biblical truth, some later theologians claimed that God will torment the lost forever and never let them die, while others theorized that God will purge sinners of all evil and then send them to heaven. Both theories have modern advocates, but neither of them reflects the Bible's teaching.

Matthew 3:12.


12. Jesus compared the end of the wicked to someone burning chaff, dead trees or weeds, and also said it will be like a house destroyed by a hurricane or someone crushed under falling rock. Check (c) here to be correct.

Matthew 3:12; Matthew 7:19; Matthew 13:30, 40; Matthew 7:27; Luke 20:17-18.


13. Choice (a) is accurate on this one. Jesus personally described Gehenna (hell) as a place where God can destroy both soul and body -- the entire person.

The just and loving God of the Bible who loved sinners all the way to the Cross will certainly not perpetuate the soul in everlasting agony. On the other hand, if you pictured Satan reigning over his evil subjects and torturing damned humans, you might be watching too much late-night television!

Matthew 10:28.


14. If you selected choice (d), you are right on target. By describing hell's punishment as "eternal," the Bible tells us that it is a punishment which occurs in the Age to Come rather than during this life, and also that its results will be everlasting.

You'll find nothing in Scripture about eternal life in horrible agony and pain. Jesus warns of everlasting punishment -- which Paul further explains as everlasting destruction.

Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:9.


15. The context and "punch line" of the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus concern (b) the urgency of responding to God while there is opportunity.

When they read this passage carefully, most people are surprised to find that the context of Jesus' parable has nothing to do with what happens to the wicked after resurrection and judgment, or even about a so-called "intermediate state" (which is not necessarily the same as what happens after resurrection and final judgment).

See Luke 16:9-16 for the context, and Luke 16:31 for the "punch line."


16. It's choice (b) again. Throughout his writings, Paul says that the lost will: (b) die, perish, and be punished with eternal destruction.

If you picked choice (a) "go to hell and burn alive forever," you will really be surprised when you look for anything like that in Paul's writings. Choice (c) is wrong, since all who finally inhabit God's eternal kingdom will enjoy every "minute" of unending eternity!

Romans 6:23; Romans 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Corinthians 3:17; Philippians 1:28; Philippians 3:19.


17. The New Testament uses the adjective "immortal" to describe (b) the resurrection bodies of the saved but not of the lost.

Some philosophers in Paul's day taught that every person has an immortal soul -- a doctrine which later crept into the Christian church but is now increasingly rejected as unbiblical. Still others said no one will ever be "immortal" or deathless. Scripture rejects both those errors, when it declares that there is life only in Christ but promises that all who truly trust him will live forever! You will always be correct to remember that the Bible always ascribes immortality to the saved, never to the lost; always in the resurrection, never now; and always in a glorified body, never as a disembodied "soul" or "spirit."

1 Corinthians 15:54-57; 2 Timothy 1:10; 1 John 5:11-13.


18. Did you choose (b)? Good for you! The Jewish-Christian books of Hebrews and James do indeed contrast salvation with inescapable destruction.

Read every word and you'll never find a hint of unending conscious pain. Going "gently into that good night" is poetic but comes from Welsh poet Dylan Thomas rather than the Bible.

Hebrews 10:27, 39; Hebrews 12:25, 29; James 4:12; James 5:3, 5, 20.


19. Choice (c) is correct. Peter's epistles clearly say that the lost will be burned to ashes like Sodom and Gomorrah and will perish like brute beasts.

2 Peter 2:6, 12; 2 Peter 3:6-9.


20. John is careful to define the "lake of fire" in Revelation as (c) the second death.

Read from Genesis to Revelation and you'll never find a picture of indescribable, everlasting torture. Does that come as a surprise?

Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8.
 
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