A Protestant Researched Marian Miracles, & What He Learned Blew His Mind

[Albion]

I don't really want to start a debate. I do believe the events at Fatima occurred though.

ETA- Okay, I'll mention a little. It's been a while since I've read details so I may be a little confused. I think it was a warning directly relating to what would happen to the Orthodox Church in Russia. Fatima occurred weeks before the communists took over, iirc. I think the visions they had showing priests dying, et cetera, were related to the martyrdoms of all of the faithful under communist rule. Russia had been well known for its devotion to the Theotokos prior to communism, but there had been a gradual turning away from the Christian faith. I think the warning was for the Church to repent and fix things, Orthodox, Catholic, et cetera, and the burden was on the faithful everywhere to pray for their return to Christ. I think the message was muddled and ignored and distorted- and there was no reason for all of that. Too many people think it means it was specifically for Russia to turn to Rome, and I don't think that was it at all.

Why would the Virgin appear to Roman Catholics in Portugal because Eastern Orthodox Christians were about to fall under Communism? If she had appeared in RUSSIA and done all that's supposed to have happened, well....

 

[bbbbbbb]

Why would the Virgin appear to Roman Catholics in Portugal because Eastern Orthodox Christians were about to fall under Communism? If she had appeared in RUSSIA and done all that's supposed to have happened, well....

This reminds me of the rather perverse views of the Muslims concerning Mary. If Mary wanted to save Christians from the blight of Islam why did she not correct Mohammeds theology regarding her?

 

[Gary the Kid]

Well lets see how the paths end...............I see one path going to the fire for purification............. I see another path that leads to the fire for punishment....................They both end up in fire............The only difference, you get out of the purification fire..........tomorrow...............I hope this post does not inflame anyone...

 

[Gary the Kid]

A house divided against itself won't stand. Satan won't do anything that points people to the Lord... which is precisely what Our Lady of Guadalupe did. The Franciscans had been there for several years but hadn't made much progress in terms of converting people to Christianity. After Our Lady of Guadalupe though, the country went from being predominantly non-Christian to predominantly Christian in about ten years. Satan wouldn't do that since it works against his own purposes. Our Lady of Guadalupe always had a very solid ring of truth to it. I totally buy that it happened.

PS: it was not a country, but an occupied Aztec Empire. Convert or die was all the rage..........Sure Satan was not involved in all of this............

 

[thecolorsblend]

PS: it was not a country, but an occupied Aztec Empire.

...

Nice hair-splitting you've got there.

Convert or die was all the rage..........

No offense but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Sure Satan was not involved in all of this............

Indeed he wasn't. I'm glad we agree on this.

 

[patricius79]

PS: it was not a country, but an occupied Aztec Empire. Convert or die was all the rage..........Sure Satan was not involved in all of this............

As I understand it, there were many million voluntary conversions in about a decade after Mary appeared to St. Juan Diego and left her image on his tilma.

Are you saying that these were forced conversions?

 

[Bob Crowley]

Mary's appearance at Fatima was primarily a call to repentance. As Sr. Lucia wrote - As Our Lady insisted at Fatima: "Men must amend their lives, and ask pardon for their sins. . . . They must no longer offend Our Lord, Who is already so much offended." That's a call to repent before God, and it sure didn't come from the devil.

There were also 3 miracles, not one - the dancing sun was the most noticeable and scared the hell out of the atheists and mockers who were there.

The second was the fact that the ground and clothes were suddenly miraculously dry after hours of drenching rain. I read somewhere that scientists calculated the energy required to do that so suddenly was about the same as that emitted by a ten megaton hydrogen bomb.

And the third was that the onlookers could look at the sun without suffering any ill effects for minutes on end. Normally if you stare at the sun for more than about ten seconds, you're asking for permanent eye damage. But they stared at it for minutes on end, and there were no reports of permanent eye damage. They were protected, all 70,000 of them.

Finally there's Bishop Fulton Sheen's essay about "Mary and the Moslems" written back in the 1950's. In his concerns about Islam and the West, he was a long, long way ahead of today's statesmen and politicians. Link refers -

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2009/fsheen_maryandislam__jun09.asp

I also remember my old Protestant pastor's comments about Marian apparitions - "There's been a lot of them..." and "I think they're a judgment on a divided Church!".

 

[Rhamiel]

Why would the Virgin appear to Roman Catholics in Portugal because Eastern Orthodox Christians were about to fall under Communism? If she had appeared in RUSSIA and done all that's supposed to have happened, well....

yeah, that stuff just happened in Russia
it is not like that had any effect on the rest of Europe...
oh wait

yeah the rise of the USSR was a major event in the history of the 20th Century

 

[Albion]

yeah, that stuff just happened in Russia
it is not like that had any effect on the rest of Europe...
oh wait

yeah the rise of the USSR was a major event in the history of the 20th Century

You must think that was really cute, the way you worded that. If you ever want to have a serious discussion, however, let me know.

As for your "point" here, no, Portugal was not going to be in the crosshairs of Soviet Communism anytime in the near future, so the question about why the Virgin would be delivering this message to Portugese children rather than Russian, Polish, etc, or even German ones, stands.

 

[Rhamiel]

all of the world was in the crosshairs of Communism after WWII
with the Soviet Union and China being two of very large countries
and Communist Guerilla's fighting proxy wars all through Latin America and Africa

 

[Bob Crowley]

As for your "point" here, no, Portugal was not going to be in the crosshairs of Soviet Communism anytime in the near future, so the question about why the Virgin would be delivering this message to Portugese children rather than Russian, Polish, etc, or even German ones, stands.

If God sends a message, the place and means is irrelevant. He's sovereign, and can do what He wants.

In the Abrahamic religions, He chose to reveal Himself first to Abraham in Ur. Why him? He came to a virgin named Mary, in a backwoods village not even important in Jewish history - why her and why there? David was a shepherd minding a bunch of smelly sheep when he was called. Moses probably thought he was all washed up, eighty years old, in exile for forty years from his own people, but the burning bush beckoned him alone.

Not only that, but the fact God called three almost illiterate children in a backward part of Europe, not even involved in the big event of the day, the slaughterhouse of World War I, is quite in keeping with Christ's statement ...

Matthew 11:25 NIV At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."

He didn't think it necessary to inform Lloyd George, Woodrow Wilson, Georges Clemenceau or Kaiser Wilhelm, architects of the blood bath of the Western Front. He ignored them, along with Lenin and his disciple Stalin.

Yet despite the fact two of the children were dead in two years, leaving just one, the message still got out.

As God said to Paul, "My strength is made perfect in your weakness".

 

[Albion]

As for your "point" here, no, Portugal was not going to be in the crosshairs of Soviet Communism anytime in the near future, so the question about why the Virgin would be delivering this message to Portugese children rather than Russian, Polish, etc, or even German ones, stands.

If God sends a message, the place and means is irrelevant. He's sovereign, and can do what He wants.

Of course he can, but...

The claim had been made--and not by me--that there was something logical about the Virgin appearing to Portuguese children because of events...in Russia! My point was that this is not, in fact, very logical. And yet, that's the way the thinking normally goes among the churches and people who are 'into' these sightings--that there's a good reason why the Virgin should have appeared where and when she allegedly did.

 

[patricius79]

Mary's appearance at Fatima was primarily a call to repentance. As Sr. Lucia wrote - As Our Lady insisted at Fatima: "Men must amend their lives, and ask pardon for their sins. . . . They must no longer offend Our Lord, Who is already so much offended." That's a call to repent before God, and it sure didn't come from the devil.

There were also 3 miracles, not one - the dancing sun was the most noticeable and scared the hell out of the atheists and mockers who were there.

The second was the fact that the ground and clothes were suddenly miraculously dry after hours of drenching rain. I read somewhere that scientists calculated the energy required to do that so suddenly was about the same as that emitted by a ten megaton hydrogen bomb.

And the third was that the onlookers could look at the sun without suffering any ill effects for minutes on end. Normally if you stare at the sun for more than about ten seconds, you're asking for permanent eye damage. But they stared at it for minutes on end, and there were no reports of permanent eye damage. They were protected, all 70,000 of them.

Finally there's Bishop Fulton Sheen's essay about "Mary and the Moslems" written back in the 1950's. In his concerns about Islam and the West, he was a long, long way ahead of today's statesmen and politicians. Link refers -

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2009/fsheen_maryandislam__jun09.asp

I also remember my old Protestant pastor's comments about Marian apparitions - "There's been a lot of them..." and "I think they're a judgment on a divided Church!".

Thank you so much for posting that article from Fulton Sheen. So far I'm loving it.

 

[Rhamiel]

Of course he can, but...

The claim had been made--and not by me--that there was something logical about the Virgin appearing to Portuguese children because of events...in Russia! My point was that this is not, in fact, very logical. And yet, that's the way the thinking normally goes among the churches and people who are 'into' these sightings--that there's a good reason why the Virgin should have appeared where and when she allegedly did.

Global Communism was a real threat to the entire world at that time
there were violent Communists and Socialists in the Iberian Peninsula
she was warning them about the errors of Russia that would be spread throughout the world

maybe Mary did not appear in Russia because the Russian people were not disposed to listen to a messenger from God?
who knows

if I get your point, your argument is "if God was going to warn anybody about communism, he would have warned the Russians about communism"
you argue like an atheist argues
"well God didn't heal my grandpa from cancer, therefore there are no miraculous healings"

 

[Bob Crowley]

Of course he can, but...

The claim had been made--and not by me--that there was something logical about the Virgin appearing to Portuguese children because of events...in Russia! My point was that this is not, in fact, very logical. And yet, that's the way the thinking normally goes among the churches and people who are 'into' these sightings--that there's a good reason why the Virgin should have appeared where and when she allegedly did.

I don't presume to know God's mind, but He doesn't think like we do. "As far above the earth is the heavens, so are my thoughts above your thoughts..."

The final miracle of Mary at Fatima took place on the 13th October 1917. But there had already been a revolution in Russian earlier that year. However it was the Bolsheviks who then launched a coup d'etat against the provisional government on the 6&7th November, just 24 & 25 days after Mary's appearance.

Reference - http://www.history.com/topics/russian-revolution

On March 14, the Petrograd Soviet issued Order No. 1, which instructed Russian soldiers and sailors to obey only those orders that did not conflict with the directives of the Soviet. The next day, March 15, Czar Nicholas II abdicated the throne in favor of his brother Michael (1878-1918), whose refusal of the crown brought an end to the czarist autocracy.......

.....Then, on November 6 and 7, 1917 (or October 24 and 25 on the Julian calendar, which is why this event is also referred to as the October Revolution), leftist revolutionaries led by Bolshevik Party leader Vladimir Lenin launched a nearly bloodless coup d’état against the provisional government.

What Mary did was to point out the results of the Bolshevik Revolution. It would have been a waste of time for her to have appeared in some remote Russian village, and in any case the Russians had to sort out their problems for themselves.

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/FatimaConsecration.htm - What has happened since is that Russia has been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart (Mary).

July 7, 1952 Pope Pius XII consecrates the Russian people to the Immaculate Heart

Regardless of what you might think about Putin, but if you've been following events in Russia recently, she's been taking on a more Christian stance than the West.

As to why Mary might be so interested in Russia, I found this particular essay which may be of some interests.

http://eucharisticadoration.com/articles/432/1/Why-Is-Our-lady-So-Interested-In-Russia63/Page1.html

Yes, the Marian heritage of Russia is deeply rooted in its national character and tradition, the past years of diabolical enslavement will not have uprooted this heritage which took centuries to establish. The Russians have always been known to be exceedingly devoted to Mary, especially through her icons. M.Gordilli, a well-known Oriental mariologist, after a thorough investigation into the miraculous icons of Our Lady of Russia, arrived at the figure of a good 293, whose Feasts are celebrated at least with a commemoration in the Russian Church.

Truly, Russia can be called Mary's land. Although external expression of filial love for the Mother of God is hampered at present, Mary is still loved and honored by many in Russia. The very first Church in Russia was built in Honor of the Assumption of Our Blessed Lady, centuries and centuries before the doctrine was defined. Today in the Kremlin there is an unused chapel dedicated to the Assumption.

The final promise of the Virgin of Fatima was unconditional. The conversion of Russia is certain. The blasphemous anti-God despotism in Russia has been built on the terrible, passive sufferings of the Russian people. But Russia is going to return to God. And thus, in Russia's devotion to Mary, Russia's centuries-old heritage lies our hope of peace!

Source: Fr. John Baptist Terbovich.

And as far as warnings go, Mary also warned that if men didn't improve, there would be a worse and more terrible war than the one then in train on the Western Front. The sign would be a "great light" in the sky.

http://www.realnews247.com/rakovsky_interrogation.htm

This reddish light was so impressive in London, France, and Switzerland that fire engines were called out to chase nonexistent fires. The New York Times carried an account the next day, January 26, 1938 - about the strange, unknown light which stretched from Europe to Alaska.

You don't get any prizes for guessing which war broke out a year later, and was in fact already in train in China under Japanese militarism.

Protestants can keep ridiculing Mary if they want to, but it's a fact that in exorcisms, Mary is the one person NEVER blasphemed by the demon being driven out. I think they should be a bit careful, or they're going to find themselves facing an almighty God and given a "please explain". If God won't even allow the devil to blaspheme the Mother of God (the Son), then they'd better have a good reason.

Link refers -

http://www.signandsight.com/features/530.html

" ... At the end, the priest says to the demon, "Go away! Disappear!" The demon usually answers, "No, I don't want to." It rebels and revolts. Sometimes it says "You have no power over me. You are nothing to me." But after a while, its resistance weakens. This usually happens after the invocation of the Holy Mother, she's very important for that. No demon ever dares to insult her during an exorcism. Never.

Does he have more respect for Mary than for God himself?

Apparently. Otherwise no holds are barred, and everyone is insulted: the priests, everyone present, the bishops, the Pope, even Jesus Christ. But never the Virgin Mary. It's an enigma...."

 

[Albion]

Protestants can keep ridiculing Mary if they want to, but it's a fact that in exorcisms

If I may interrupt the raving for a moment, you don't do your cause any good by slandering Christians who take a different view of these matters.

If you are thrilled by every superstition that comes along, that's your business, we may say. However, it neither gives you the right -- nor does it strengthen your argument -- to talk like this.

Saying that there are a number of pieces that don't fit together or that there's reason to doubt the truth of some of these visions does not deserve being called by you "Protestants can keep ridiculing Mary." I did no such thing, and I don't recall any other reformed Christian on these forums doing such a thing either.

 

[Bob Crowley]

So you think I'm " ... thrilled by every superstition that comes along, that's your business,..", do you?

Far from it. And while I may not have seen Protestants in this thread or any other "Reformed Christian on these forums" doing so, I've heard them myself in personal life.

Fatima is not a superstition. It happened. Full stop.

 

[Albion]

So you think I'm " ... thrilled by every superstition that comes along, that's your business,..", do you?

Didn't I say, "If you are...?"

Why yes, I did.

And while I may not have seen Protestants in this thread or any other "Reformed Christian on these forums" doing so, I've heard them myself in personal life.

Then I'll point out that it's very wrong to extrapolate from that experience to what you said, which was an indictment of Protestants generally. But go ahead, if this is how you want your time here on CF to go; you certainly have plenty of company.

 

[patricius79]

If you are thrilled by every superstition that comes along, that's your business, we may say. However, it neither gives you the right -- nor does it strengthen your argument -- to talk like this.
.

What are these "superstitions" that you refer to?