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A Prophecy or Command?

Citizen of the Kingdom

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The historical (fleshly) aspect of the fall is a condition of cause and effect. Cain is told how to deal with flesh (sin nature) that the fall produced. (Meant for both the male and female aspect of the human creature.) The connection is the serpent that s given dust to eat and the (old) nature obtained from the fall as bottom of satan's food chain.

Looking past that to the moral of the story (using reasoning of the soul) , God has lost the key element (death of the spirit of humans that is connection to God). For that there are consequences to pay.

When relating God to morality we can see that giving birth to new creations has become difficult and painful stemming from the fact that another husband (referred to as old nature) now has dominion over the creature. For God that is the consequences that He has had to absorb into Himself but with the safeguard to Himself that protects against that contacting Himself directly.

Cain points to the spiritual solution but which was unobtainable for him, could never be because it comes from the old earth. Only death to the old nature in the form of a substitute could save him. But the cost becomes obvious when seen what ‘natural’ man (old adam) tended toward. Death to Abel (the ability to do good?)

Spiritually, morally and factually Jesus Christ came thru the fog of reasoning to present the real substitute to give back to God that which had been usurped from God. His work in the heavenliness is for the new creation's benefit. Like a household that is without the head (kingship) present the Old Testament representatives were faithful stewards. The new testament presents the bride waiting on His return.
Like any household today the mature are perfectly capable of running the household while the Husband is away but when He returns home the weaker gives place to the stronger. The stronger is the spiritual, the soul gives place to the spiritual (which is our reasonable service) so the body is correctly ruled.

Therefore, Christ’s rule in one’s heart is the correction of the fall that is represented in His finished work. Morality cannot be found in the flesh, but the spiritual can be found in the morality when placed at Jesus' feet.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I do love how you took the way a scripture was written and used it to completely define what a totally different scripture meant.

Though dismissed by culture and church histories, through other scriptures it is clear of the desire for God to have women in the submissive role. However, men have the sinful tendency to trade this responsibility for sex or procreation or peace in the family and women have a sinful tendency to choose only men they can control, thus creating more and more submissive male types and furthering the sin of women. The original intention was to save Eve from herself because she was the one deceived and Adam wasn't. Yet now it is labeled sexist and many other scriptures are used to encourage women to sin in their controlling natures. You have twisted these things for social acceptance and you will reap what you sow.

Are you sure you fully understand what I've said? ....and hello, greetings to you, too! :dontcare:
 
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FatalHeart

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Are you sure you fully understand what I've said? ....and hello, greetings to you, too! :dontcare:

The statement at the end wasn't just for you. I'll await your explanation if I have misunderstood you.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The statement at the end wasn't just for you. I'll await your explanation if I have misunderstood you.

Oh, so, when you said, "You have twisted these things for social acceptance and you will reap what you sow," you meant this statement to refer to people beyond just me? That makes me feel so much better....:rolleyes:

So, here's the rub. In presenting my 'view' on the meaning of Genesis 3:16, I'm taking a cue from theologian Gordon J. Wenham in his book, Story as Torah. So, while this isn't to say that Wenham necessarily has all of his ducks in a row, I'm also going to be hard pressed to expect that someone will just come by here and tear down whatever it is they don't like about Wenham's exegetical comments regarding Eve's situation with Adam (and thereby, women's general social situation with men, or wive's situations with their husbands).

Secondly, I really, really do take offense to see that men who claim to be Christian actually have the nerve to assert that women, even after the advent of Christ, are to be subjugated to some kind of servile, 2nd place behind men and husbands. And I'm confident that God's Will overall is for Christian men and women to love each other and serve each other on more egalitarian terms. Wouldn't you agree?

Yeah, I don't think I'll be reaping any weeds or thistles any time soon over this.
 
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FatalHeart

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Oh, so, when you said, "You have twisted these things for social acceptance and you will reap what you sow," you meant this statement to refer to people beyond just me? That makes me feel so much better....:rolleyes:

So, here's the rub. In presenting my 'view' on the meaning of Genesis 3:16, I'm taking a cue from theologian Gordon J. Wenham in his book, Story as Torah. So, while this isn't to say that Wenham necessarily has all of his ducks in a row, I'm also going to be hard pressed to expect that someone will just come by here and tear down whatever it is they don't like about Wenham's exegetical comments regarding Eve's situation with Adam (and thereby, women's general social situation with men, or wive's situations with their husbands).

Secondly, I really, really do take offense to see that men who claim to be Christian actually have the nerve to assert that women, even after the advent of Christ, are to be subjugated to some kind of servile, 2nd place behind men and husbands. And I'm confident that God's Will overall is for Christian men and women to love each other and serve each other on more egalitarian terms. Wouldn't you agree?

Yeah, I don't think I'll be reaping any weeds or thistles any time soon over this.

Why would it matter what church history or some prominent religious leader says about a matter? Why would that entail much more weight than the Spirit of Christ? If we disagree, I would suggest you seek His answer to the issue and look to where the Holy Spirit leads you. Then, whether you or I decide to still disagree will be a matter of sin on one person's part that they'll be held accountable for when God comes back and completes the matter. But as for where I stand, I read things like Corinthians and Timothy that describe how the church should function and I believe it solely for what it says. I do not take common interpretations by other authors and base my knowledge of God on their interpretations.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Why would it matter what church history or some prominent religious leader says about a matter? Why would that entail much more weight than the Spirit of Christ? If we disagree, I would suggest you seek His answer to the issue and look to where the Holy Spirit leads you. Then, whether you or I decide to still disagree will be a matter of sin on one person's part that they'll be held accountable for when God comes back and completes the matter. But as for where I stand, I read things like Corinthians and Timothy that describe how the church should function and I believe it solely for what it says. I do not take common interpretations by other authors and base my knowledge of God on their interpretations.

Then it sounds to me like you have to deny some portions of "literal" Scripture to make room for other portions of your own cherry-picked "literal" Scripture. Have fun with that!
 
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DamianWarS

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After Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, the Lord said this to Eve:

"I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children,
yet your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you." Gen 3:16 RSV

Are the words “Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you,” a prophecy or command?

"...and he shall rule over you" feels like a punishment for the previous line. The previous line being like a command and if so implicates Eve to have a wandering desire outside of her husband prior to the fall.

This may give us some insight to the cause of the fall. Was it a physical snake talking to Eve trying to get her to eat the fruit or are these things shadows of something else? The desire part seems to resonate.
 
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FatalHeart

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Then it sounds to me like you have to deny some portions of "literal" Scripture to make room for other portions of your own cherry-picked "literal" Scripture. Have fun with that!

That's ok. You won't have to worry. I'll just seek God's answer in it like I am currently doing and have Him talk to you about it as well. No big deal. XD
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That's ok. You won't have to worry. I'll just seek God's answer in it like I am currently doing and have Him talk to you about it as well. No big deal. XD

....thanks for the vote of confidence in your assumption and judgment that I'm somehow 'not' seeking God's answer. Duly noted.
 
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A71

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What natural order? The natural order before man sinned or after?

The natural order before man sinned did not taste death.

The natural order in God's Kingdom will not taste death either. It's nothing we've ever seen and completely different from the natural order of this fallen world.
after the fall.
Nature with death and rebirth as part of the process
 
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1213

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After Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, the Lord said this to Eve:

"I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children,
yet your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you." Gen 3:16 RSV

Are the words “Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you,” a prophecy or command?

I understand it means that God knows how things will be (prophesy).
 
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bling

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A judgement, but in your sense probably prophecy. That is, we're not commanded to make childbirth painful (or to refuse pain relief to mothers). Calvin comments (and I agree) that the "rule" here is an unhealthy domination, so this is also a judgement and not a command. Rather, these were consequences of the fall. The fall was not a good thing, nor were its consequences.
Are the consequences loving just disciplining by God and thus if accepted correctly can become a blessing?
 
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dreadnought

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Sorry. I just realized that I got distracted (by my family) while I was attempting to answer your OP, and I only addressed the "desire for your husband" part of your quote.

As for the first part dealing with 'childbirth pain, it appears some here have already dealt with that, so I don't have anything to add really.
I'm focusing on the part about the man ruling over the woman - was it a command or a prophecy?
 
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dreadnought

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Not sure if it was either. The Garden story is full of allegorical symbolism. I'm sure it reveals something about Jews but I don't know what, yet.
I would guess it was a prophecy.
 
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dreadnought

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It's not a command but a consequence of Eve's sin.

Same thing for the consequences of Adam's sin (toil the land / hard work / heavy burden).

It cannot be a command, else it will contradict what Christ said - "follow me for my burden is light and yoke easy....."


.
But one would ask, "Is it then the Lord's will that men rule over women?" If so, then I would categorize it as a command.
 
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dreadnought

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more like a prophecy. these were "fact of life" curses.

the LORD cursed man's quality of life.
I don't really see it as curse. A woman can repent of her sin and refuse to obey men who make unreasonable demands.
 
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dreadnought

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Maybe but Genesis was written after the law was given and if it has anything to do with that time period it wouldn't be prophecy would it?
I would think prophecy would deal with anything after the moment it was spoken.
 
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