A Problem With The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

Drwhat · Jul 1, 2008

Why bother my friend the Rapture is a completely made up false doctrine. No wonder your confused that's the result the devil desires when he weaves his web of deciet. Rapture is no where in the Holy bible just like the made up words Triune and Trinity arn't either.

Here's a simple piece of advice from one fellow human to another, If you want to perpetuate a lie into the bible then you need to make up false terminologies to do so. God bless.

Drwhat · Jul 1, 2008

The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ can only be correctly understood by the chosen called out elect. And only then in a past tense as the elect realise what has happened to them. This book is not a physical book it is a book of sign that are only revealed when Christ truly inhabits your temple, if you believe that you have a free-will then then the baptism of the Holy Spirit within you hasn't happened yet, if and when you do realise that you do not possess such a thing as phantom free-will then consequently you will have begun to truly realise God Almighty is soverign, this act allows the Spirit of God access to begin burning you out in His lake of fire while you are yet alive, this will hopefully happen to prepare you for the barn sooner rather than later.
When Christ really chooses you as his christ the experience is challenging and all to often painful. How are you going to keep the words in this book if you don't even know that they mean something is happening beyond your control inside you spiritually? The book of Revelation is not an escatological book it is what it say's it is Christ revealing himself to the chosen elect. And boy does it burn.

Do you not know yet that we all are the beast for it is the number of MAN, don't you yet realise that you are the Anti-Christ and that you are the false prophet it is you, me ,all of us who stand in our temples blaspheming the name of God professing that we are God? Are you ready to accept that truth? Are you ready to accept that the sword that mortally wounds the beast that comes up out of the see is the sword of the spirit of God and that the sea refers to the sea of humanity and that beast is you dying under God's words as you deny there truth?

May God grant you the time to meditate on these words I have spoken in love for you careful consideration. Nonetheless God's will be done as it always is. Amen.

cybersurfer · Jul 1, 2008

Jesusfreek,
I agree and find your post most interesting the imminent return of Christ for His church. We find the Exhortation for this in Luke 21:28. After Jesus gave the apostles and outline of things to come (Olivet discourse) from there own day until the beginning of the Kingdom Jesus presented them an exhortation But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh. Believers are told that one event marks the imminent redemption of the believers from this world. Context is crucial and in Lukes context, the expression these things refers back to Luke 21:20-24 which was a sign of the destruction of Jerusalem. Once Jerusalem was destroyed in 70A.D that fulfilled every and any prophecy that had to be fulfilled before the rapture. The destruction of the Temple and city fulfilled the judgment of the unpardonable sin. Once this happened, it rendered the rapture of the church imminent. Imminency does not mean soon. It only means it can not happen at any moment in time.
We now know the early church before 70 A.D. could not have been raptured because it did not become imminent until 70 A.D.
Lets look at what Jesus did NOT say; Jesus did not say Only when all these things have come to pass, then look up, for your redemption draws nigh. He did not say we must wait until the end of the tribulation before looking up. What He did say was, When you see these things begin to come to pass, then look up, for your redemption draws nigh.
The beginning part was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Once the beginning had occurred, the rapture became imminent. Its hard to believe in a post tribulation Rapture once you understand what Jesus made very clear.

Drwhat · Jul 1, 2008

Do you realise that we all are the beast and it's number is that of MAN? DO YOU NOT YET REALISE WE ALL ARE THE aNTI-CHRIST'S AND THE FALSE PROPHETS STANDING IN OUR TEMPLES BLASPHEMING THE NAME OF GOD AND PROCLAIMING OURSELVES TO BE AS GOD?

DO YOU NOT YET REALISE THE BEAST THAT RISES OUT OF THE SEA THAT IS MORTALLY WOUNDED BY A SWORD IS REPRESENTATIVE OF ALL OF US AND THAT THE SEA REFERS TO THE SEA OF HUMANITY AND THE SWORD IS THE SPIRIT WORD OF GOD KILLING US AS WE DENY HIM IT WITH OUR EVERY PORE AND FIBRE?

I hope my words will be meditated on and taken in the spirit of love they were given out in. May God grant you the eyes to see and the ears to listen to what the Spirit of God has to say to us as we reason together that there may be no schism in the true body of Christ. Nonetheless God's will be done. Amen.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 1, 2008

Drwhat said:
The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ can only be correctly understood by the chosen called out elect. And only then in a past tense as the elect realise what has happened to them. This book is not a physical book it is a book of sign that are only revealed when Christ truly inhabits your temple, if you believe that you have a free-will then then the baptism of the Holy Spirit within you hasn't happened yet, if and when you do realise that you do not possess such a thing as phantom free-will then consequently you will have begun to truly realise God Almighty is soverign, this act allows the Spirit of God access to begin burning you out in His lake of fire while you are yet alive, this will hopefully happen to prepare you for the barn sooner rather than later.
When Christ really chooses you as his christ the experience is challenging and all to often painful. How are you going to keep the words in this book if you don't even know that they mean something is happening beyond your control inside you spiritually? The book of Revelation is not an escatological book it is what it say's it is Christ revealing himself to the chosen elect. And boy does it burn.

Do you not know yet that we all are the beast for it is the number of MAN, don't you yet realise that you are the Anti-Christ and that you are the false prophet it is you, me ,all of us who stand in our temples blaspheming the name of God professing that we are God? Are you ready to accept that truth? Are you ready to accept that the sword that mortally wounds the beast that comes up out of the see is the sword of the spirit of God and that the sea refers to the sea of humanity and that beast is you dying under God's words as you deny there truth?

May God grant you the time to meditate on these words I have spoken in love for you careful consideration. Nonetheless God's will be done as it always is. Amen.

This is one of the most inspriring and spirit led post I have seen in sometime. I will have to save it. Thanks for that.

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738) these-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the loosing/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 19,20]

Reve 16:17 and the seventh one pours out the bowl of him upon the air and came out Voice, great, out of the sanctuary from the throne saying :it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754).

Reve 21:6 And He said to me: "it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754).
I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the water of the life gratuitously.

Jesusfreek,
I agree and find your post most interesting the imminent return of Christ for His church. We find the Exhortation for this in Luke 21:28. After Jesus gave the apostles and outline of things to come (Olivet discourse) from there own day until the beginning of the Kingdom Jesus presented them an exhortation “But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.” Believers are told that one event marks the imminent redemption of the believers from this world. Context is crucial and in Luke’s context, the expression “these things” refers back to Luke 21:20-24 which was a sign of the destruction of Jerusalem. Once Jerusalem was destroyed in 70A.D that fulfilled every and any prophecy that had to be fulfilled before the rapture. The destruction of the Temple and city fulfilled the judgment of the unpardonable sin. Once this happened, it rendered the rapture of the church imminent. “Imminency” does not mean “soon.” It only means it can not happen at any moment in time.
We now know the early church before 70 A.D. could not have been raptured because it did not become imminent until 70 A.D.
Let’s look at what Jesus did NOT say; Jesus did not say Only when all these things have come to pass, then look up, for your redemption draws nigh. He did not say we must wait until the end of the tribulation before looking up. What He did say was, “When you see these things begin to come to pass, then look up, for your redemption draws nigh.”
The beginning part was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Once the beginning had occurred, the rapture became imminent. It’s hard to believe in a post tribulation Rapture once you understand what Jesus made very clear.

Drwhat · Jul 1, 2008

Dude was Noah the only righteous man on earth prior to the floodleft behind or phantom raptured. As in the days of Noah so it shall be in the end. The righteous ain't going anywhere, the rapture doctrine is a red herring, get your self of the hook with fear and trembling. Amen.

garry2 · Jul 1, 2008

Drwhat said:
Why bother my friend the Rapture is a completely made up false doctrine. No wonder your confused that's the result the devil desires when he weaves his web of deciet. Rapture is no where in the Holy bible just like the made up words Triune and Trinity arn't either.

Here's a simple piece of advice from one fellow human to another, If you want to perpetuate a lie into the bible then you need to make up false terminologies to do so. God bless.

1 Thessalonians
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It dosn't matter whay you call it, this is what many call the rapture and it is Bibical as you should be able to see now.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 1, 2008

garry2 said:
1 Thessalonians
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It dosn't matter whay you call it, this is what many call the rapture and it is Bibical as you should be able to see now.

Yepperz. That is what it says alright.

zeke37 · Jul 2, 2008

cybersurfer said:
Jesusfreek,
I agree and find your post most interesting the imminent return of Christ for His church. We find the Exhortation for this in Luke 21:28. After Jesus gave the apostles and outline of things to come (Olivet discourse) from there own day until the beginning of the Kingdom Jesus presented them an exhortation But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

after the trib of that time.....not before....

Believers are told that one event marks the imminent redemption of the believers from this world. Context is crucial and in Lukes context, the expression these things refers back to Luke 21:20-24 which was a sign of the destruction of Jerusalem. Once Jerusalem was destroyed in 70A.D that fulfilled every and any prophecy that had to be fulfilled before the rapture.

lol....not even close...ignorance..

The destruction of the Temple and city fulfilled the judgment of the unpardonable sin.

not so...it was a type and certianly not the worst battle and time and disception in history...

what about WW1, WW2, all the 20th century wars....let alone the bloody middle ages and ...etc....

no, you are sooooo wrong...that time of trouble has not hapened yet.

the Jer24 prophesy was not fulfilled then, nor culd it have been until this generation.

Once this happened, it rendered the rapture of the church imminent.

lol....
that is not the destruction spoken of in Mat24, Mar13.

Imminency does not mean soon. It only means it can not happen at any moment in time.
We now know the early church before 70 A.D. could not have been raptured because it did not become imminent until 70 A.D.

lol, it is still not...there are still many prophesies that have to happen first, before it becomes imminent...such as the son of Perdition, who is Satan cast from heaven to the earth, a fallen angel with supernatural abilities...who will fool the entire world into thinking he is Jesus returned.

and after that brief time, no more flesh....so that has not happened yet.lol.

the apsotasy must happen first, and the son of Perdition be revealed...the man of sin. THEN AFTER THAT, the GATHERING

Lets look at what Jesus did NOT say; Jesus did not say Only when all these things have come to pass, then look up, for your redemption draws nigh. He did not say we must wait until the end of the tribulation before looking up. What He did say was, When you see these things begin to come to pass, then look up, for your redemption draws nigh.

when it starts, (the elect shall know the season) they are to look forward to Christ's arrival)

The beginning part was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

naaaa....

the beginning part is when the NWO starts to form...a OWG with one currecny...

that will mark the beginning of the final hour that has been shortened for the elect's sake.Rev9=5 months

Once the beginning had occurred, the rapture became imminent.

not so...Christ has a job for the elect to do here, during that time of temptation. Satan is coming to fool the church into thinking that he is Jesus returned. There must be witnesses against this falsehood...and the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia are the two candlesticks that fight the beast in Rev11.

the church is here, as candlesticks are defined as the churches, and 2 of 7 are good to go....and 2 are seen witht he olive trees, fighting the beast.

Its hard to believe in a post tribulation Rapture once you understand what Jesus made very clear.

it is absolutely impossible to believe a pre trib rapture, once you have the facts...unless God Himself has blinded you. read 2Thes2 and 1Thes4 and 1Cor15 and the Olivette Prophesies....well there is much more too! but we can get the point that we are told when the Gathering to Christ is....AFTER the trib of those days...after the man of sin is revealed, after the apostasy...

to think that there is a pre trib gathering to Christ earlier than that time of trouble, is fantasy...

Pre trib goes directly against everything that we have a type for....everything. read KJV Ez13, God is against those teachers that teach His children to fly to save their souls. it is Satan's big trick....setting up folks to believe the first Jesus on the scene, but we are warned that the first Jesus on the scene is the fake....the instead of Jesus...

if you are still in a flesh body, Messiah is NOT here to gather yet...simple.

in His service
c

HisdaughterJen · Jul 2, 2008

What is the "rapture" or gathering to Christ? What happens?

The dead are raised, our bodies are changed and we are caught up to Christ in the air.

What is that?

Rom 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth (SOUND FAMILIAR - WARS FAMINES, PLAGUES of Matt 24) right up to the present time.
Rom 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

God proclaimed that there would be 120 years (Jubilees) or 6000 years (120 x 50) for fallen flesh in Genesis 3. Then what?

We will be resurrected and changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air and He will take us to the place prepared in heaven, where our citizenship is.

Phl 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Phl 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Only the problem is, that the devil is doing everything in his power to thwart this plan but it won't work:

Rev 12:1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Rev 12:2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
Rev 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

The woman isn't Christ and it isn't the Church because Christ didn't give birth to Christ nor did the Church give birth to Christ. ALSO, Christ was not "snatched" up to God at his birth. BUT we will be.

When we are given our glorified bodies, we will be snatched up instantly, "in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor 15), to the throne of God. (Rev 7)

WE, the body of Christ, will rule and reign with Christ who rules the nations with a rod of iron.

When the devil is cast down, WE, the church, are snatched up to our heavenly home:

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
Rev 12:11 They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them! (the church!)
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short. (42 months to be exact)”

Did you catch that? We are snatched up when the devil is hurled down. We are living in heaven, where our citizenship is, when the devil is cast down to the earth knowing that his time is short.

cybersurfer · Jul 2, 2008

Zeke,
Lay off the Kool-Aid Man this post was to jesusfreak not you. Nothing of what you said made any sense anyway. You have no scripture to back up any of your opinions. You have no idea what CONTEXT means. What is your definition of Context. I get it You're against the Rapture because we don't have the facts. So Zeke, what are the facts not your opinions the Facts in context. Not candlesticks and olive trees fighting the beast this is fantasy. Nowhere in Revelation that deal with the tribulation chapters 6-18 is the church found that is a fact.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 2, 2008

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=8&version=NIV#

Rom 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

SO one is a spiritual redemtion and one is a physical redemption?

Romans 8:23 And, not only so, but, we ourselves, also, who have the first-fruit of the Spirit--[[we]] even ourselves, within our own selves do sigh,--sonship ardently awaiting--the redemption/apo-lutrwsin <629> of our body;--

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becomingthese-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the redemption/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 19,20]

A Brother In Christ · Jul 2, 2008

A Brother In Christ said:
so explain 1 thes 4:16-17

I will
OT saint are looking forward to getting eternal life 75 days after the 2nd coming ... Dan 12:2,11-12

Saints are Saints....Christ went to all that were dead and offered the same oppertunity that we have. So the dead in Christ include the OT Prophets.

Yet deal with 2 peter 1:4, and heb 11:39-40, eph 2:11-12 .... scripture says different opportunities

Dainiel is not said to be raised 75 days after. Just that there is a blessing in waiting....

Daniel 12:2....summary... resurrection some to eternal life other to Judgement

Daniel 12:11 Judgement... 1290 days or Three and half years from the abomination of desolation... Dan 9:26-27, matt 24:15-20, 2 thes 2:4

Daniel 12:12 blessing ..eternal life 1335 days blessing comes ... glorification and eternal life which are 75 days after the 2nd coming

remember that I have said in the past that the length of time has been shortened according to Mar13. And the length that it was shortened to is told in Rev 9. 150 days. That is one of the reasons that it shall be like in the days of Noah.

Rev 8:12 is where time will be sped up form 24 hr day to 16 hr day Matt 24:22 tells of this!as well as Mark 13:20

Satan arrives at the 1/2 way point of the hour of temptation, that you assume is still 7 years cut in half. It is not that long anymore.

No still seven years with seasons

As in the flood of Noah, the waters prevailed 150 days...
The end time tribulation will be the same length of time.

So you are using

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the Ark.

wow... The world will do exactly this Till the Rapture... then the Beast will sign a peace treaty and sevn years later the 2nd coming .

But 1 thes 5:1 -2 Believer have no need to know this as the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night ... destruction and lost

And like in Daniel, the time is divided in two.

the first half (75 days) is ruled by the kings of the earth in the NWO system. Satan controls the events from the spiritual world but is still waring in heaven.

the second half (75 days) starts with Satan being cast from heaven to the earth to play act Jesus.

So you deny Daniel 70th week which is one week is 7 years... why prophesy of the first 69 weeks fulfilled... literally

if one is faithful to the true Jesus and waits the 75 days until He arrives, that would mean that the person is elect because they were not fooled by Satan's flood of lies.

there is your 75 days. it is the midst of the week.....it is when the church becomes apostate. There is no pre trib Gathering to Christ.

NT saints can be change in a moment and is a mystery that God did not tell anyone till Paul... Eph 3:2,9

the "at any moment" doctrine is false. that is not true. There is much prophesy still to go. Christ does not return till the 2nd Advent. the apostasy and the son of perdition must be revealed before the Gathering to Christ.

Next prophecy ... the Rapture... Just as Noah God pulls out the saved and Judges the world...

the Saints that believe during the seven years ... get OT promises and if Killed rev 7:9,14 as servants not as ruler as We get to do... 1 cor 6:2-3, phil 2:9-11 where at the Great White throne... rev 20:11-15

the "mystery" of Eph3:9 is not pre trib rapture, but that the gentiles should be joint heirs.....defined in verse 6....receive the promises of God as the Israelites

Gal 3:28 where there is either Jew or Gentile

1 cor 10:32 Jews, Gentiles , and the Church of God

people in the Church of God = church not Jew or Gentile

Mystery defined.. Romans 16:25-26, eph 3:9-10, col 1:26

wrong

Rom 16:25-26 is defined in verse 20. the elect shall bruise Satan under their feet. Not even close here ABIC.

Col1:26 is defined in verse 27...again the gentiles have the promise that was thought to be reserved for only the Jew. Christ.

Rapture is a mystery .... 1 cor 15:51-54 given only to the Church

the mystery is not the Gathering to Christ, but rather the fact that "we shalll not all die, but be changed" at the Last trump.

OT saints knew that They could escape death and watch as Christ comes for the 2nd coming...

Jews promised the Earth.. Matt 5:5

meek does not represent the Jews, but ALL the overcomers. Maybe some will be Jewish!!!

Eph 2:11-12 .... Gentile had no promise prior to the cross... Matt is prior at this point

Church ...Gal 3:28....

what I see here is that we are all the same in God's eyes....is that the right scripture you meant?

Eph 2:11-12 how close could a gentile get to God during Law.... and if they became a Jewish proceylte they could not go in the tabernacle or Temple but on the outside of its gates only

Phil 3:20-21 promised the heavens

well, we shall all have a body like His, whether we be dead in Christ, or alive and remain until He comes back at the 2nd Advent. 1Cor15. they are talking about the fact that we are to believe that He shall come back. No time frame given...

Part of Christ now... 1 cor 12:12-13

no division between Jew and gentile...no rapture there.

God wrath goes upon earth dwellers... Not himself

why would His wrath go on Himself? Why would you say not Himself???

Who was Saul presecuting in Acts 9:4 was this Christ or believers .... both Christ is the Head of the body eph eph 1:22-23 where we are all one connected by the indwelling of God where we get Eternal life upon belief

His wrath is for all who fail the test of the antiChrist. Even Christians who fail the test.

So Christ was not faithful to Adam and eve when they repent not.... or did God make them clothing... Gen 3:21

When David slept with Uriah's wife Did God kill Him according to the Law! Romans 4:6-8

if God is not mad at you, you could stand in His wrath and it would not harm you at all. And God does not send His wrath until the 144,000 are Gathered together on Mt Zion at the Last(7th) trump.

in His service
c

If anyone who denys the Gospel during our time of grace they will believe the lie... 2 thes 4:9-10 , and be killed during the Great Trib...

ABIC
Zeke37
ABIC rsponse

Zeke37 ... no response?

CindyisHis · Jul 2, 2008

This has been a very interesting read, particularly the first 3-4 pages. The only dimension I would add is that we all must keep what is written in 1 Cor. 13 in mind as discussion takes place.

13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

I think the blessing of having a forum like this is so we can learn from one another as we grow in the Lord. Even if one has a different point of view I believe we ought to walk in love by showing respect. I saw that displayed more so on the first few pages, and then it seemed to begin to veer from that.

If one of us understood perfectly all that is to come, and yet failed to walk in love, what is that?

Please continue with the main topic. It's a worthy subject for discussion - without a doubt - and I have been blessed to read it. A big thanks to all the posters. I just had to be obedient to the Spirit of God. Thanks for bearing with me. Carry on.

Dorothea · Jul 2, 2008

garry2 said:
1 Thessalonians
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It dosn't matter whay you call it, this is what many call the rapture and it is Bibical as you should be able to see now.

Here's an article I found interesting on this subject and some excerpts from it. I'm not sure what Christian faith the person who wrote the article is, but he makes very good points in it.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]A nineteenth century British preacher, John Nelson Darby, was the one who developed the rapture teaching and began to promote it in the 1830s. He was the founder of the Plymouth Brethren Church and developed a scheme of scriptural interpretation called dispensationalism. The idea of the dispensationalists is that God has had different rules for different groups at different times. For instance, He had the law for the Jews and now we have grace for the Church. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Darbys teachings were refined and popularized by C. I. Scofield, an American lawyer and minister who authored the noted Scofield Reference Bible at the beginning of the twentieth century. Primarily through Dr. Scofield, Protestant evangelicals came to generally accept the teachings of both dispensationalism and the secret rapture. These two ideas go hand in hand to blind many sincere people to Gods real message to Christians in the end time.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Proponents of the rapture point to 1 Thessalonians 4 as their primary proof of a "secret coming." They then proceed to divide all scriptures that discuss the return of Jesus Christ into two categories. First are the scriptures that discuss the resurrection of the saints and their gathering to Christ. Secondly are the scriptures that discuss Christ taking vengeance on wicked and rebellious people and nations. Their idea is that these events are separated by a period of years. Let us carefully look at 1 Thessalonians 4 and see whether that is so.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]"We wish you not to remain in ignorance, brothers, about those who sleep in death; you should not grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again; and so it will be for those who died as Christians; God will bring them to life with Jesus. For this we tell you as the Lords word: we who are left alive until the Lord comes shall not forestall those who have died; because at the word of command, at the sound of the archangels voice and Gods trumpet call, the Lord himself will descend from heaven; first the Christian dead will rise, then we who are left alive shall join them, caught up in clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:1317, NEB).[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]This description is taken by rapture proponents to be descriptive of a secret coming of Christ, which will take Christians off to Heaven. But notice we are told that preceding this resurrection the trumpet of God is blown. What is that and when will it occur?[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Apostle Paul added more details when he wrote a letter to the Corinthian Church, located in a neighboring Greek city. "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changedin a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:5152). The specific supernatural trumpet that will be blown prior to the resurrection of the saints is dubbed "the last trumpet."[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Does the Bible anywhere speak of a series of supernatural trumpet blasts? The answer is a resounding yes! Revelation 8:12 describes the opening of the seventh and last of the seals which had closed the book of Revelation until they were removed one at a time by Jesus Christ. When the seventh seal was opened the Apostle John saw in vision seven angels standing before God and each receiving a trumpet. The angels proceeded to blow these trumpets one at a time signaling terrible ecological disasters followed by horrible warfare. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Now, let us notice Revelation 11:15: "Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." Verse 18 connects this seventh and final trumpet blast with the time when Gods wrath has come and when He would reward the saints. Clearly, when we look at these three sections of scripture it is very apparent that the seventh and last trumpet signals both the resurrection of the saints as well as the time when Christ returns to judge the nations. These are not two different phases of the Second Coming, separated by seven years, as most evangelical writers contend. Rather, the resurrection of the saints to immortality and the pouring out of Gods wrath on the nations begin at the same time and are both signaled by the same event, the blast of the seventh and final trumpet.[/FONT]

http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/lcg/studytopics/lcg-st.cgi?category=FalseReligion1&item=1116521711

zeke37 · Jul 2, 2008

cybersurfer said:
Zeke,
Lay off the Kool-Aid Man this post was to jesusfreak not you. Nothing of what you said made any sense anyway. You have no scripture to back up any of your opinions. You have no idea what CONTEXT means. What is your definition of Context. I get it You're against the Rapture because we don't have the facts. So Zeke, what are the facts not your opinions the Facts in context. Not candlesticks and olive trees fighting the beast this is fantasy. Nowhere in Revelation that deal with the tribulation chapters 6-18 is the church found that is a fact.

well, I will point you out to the place where the church is mentioned, and you may believe it or not believe it.

this forum is open to all...if you wish to have a private conversation, then by all means go ahead and pm whoever...

since you ask, I'll answer.

Christ defines the 7 churches as the 7 candlesticks in Rev1.
Agree or disagree?

and He further defines them individually in Rev2-3.
Agree or disagree?

2 of the 7 are not chastised as the others are...Smyrna and Philadelphia, who share a common doctrine.
Agree or disagree?

and we see the 2 candlesticks with the 2 olive trees (as the two witnesses) against the beast in Rev11.
Agree or disagree?

so I do not understand how you can say that the church is gone, when we see them against the beast?

the elect are in the church...and they are certainly mentioned. The Saints are the church, and they are mentioned.

the point is to be working for Christ when He returns, and the vast majority of work to be done is to be done in that last hour of temptation. God always tries His people, and we are all going into captivity, just as the types suggest. Now, will you follow the world in this captivity, or will you stay faithful to Christ and wait for Him, in your patience possess ye your souls.

and a strait forward fact is that 2Thes2 states very clearly that the Gathering to Christ happens AFTER the apostasy and the son of Perdition be revealed for who he really is....

and the Olivette prophesies tell us when that time is as well...

Mar13 says that the gathering is AFTER the trib of those end days, that hour when Satan tempts the population of the earth.

anti means instead of....

Satan comes first to fool the world including Christians...1st seal is a fake

and Christ told us many times to beware....that there are many that come in His name, and are not. there is even going to be one that comes and says he is God..and he will have supernatural powers and will show them....this is a warning for us in the last generation....for us Christians.

God would not warn us about a thing that we aren't even going to be here for, would He?

as for your insults, go for it....no skin off my back...not mine anyway!

Rom16:17
Eph4:14
Col2:22
1Tim1:10
1Tim4
2Tim3:16
2Tim4:1-3
Tit2
Heb13:9

in His service
c

garry2 · Jul 3, 2008

Dorothea said:
Here's an article I found interesting on this subject and some excerpts from it. I'm not sure what Christian faith the person who wrote the article is, but he makes very good points in it.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]A nineteenth century British preacher, John Nelson Darby, was the one who developed the rapture[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]
I'll stop right there, the catching up to Christ was much earlier than that even in the OC

Psa 50:4 He summons the heavens above,
and the earth, that he may judge his people:
Psa 50:5 "Gather to me my consecrated ones,
who made a covenant with me by sacrifice."
Psa 50:6And the heavens proclaim his righteousness,
for God himself is judge.

Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]teaching and began to promote it in the 1830s. He was the founder of the Plymouth Brethren Church and developed a scheme of scriptural interpretation called dispensationalism. The idea of the dispensationalists is that God has had different rules for different groups at different times. For instance, He had the law for the Jews and now we have grace for the Church. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Darbys teachings were refined and popularized by C. I. Scofield, an American lawyer and minister who authored the noted Scofield Reference Bible at the beginning of the twentieth century. Primarily through Dr. Scofield, Protestant evangelicals came to generally accept the teachings of both dispensationalism and the secret rapture. These two ideas go hand in hand to blind many sincere people to Gods real message to Christians in the end time.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Proponents of the rapture point to 1 Thessalonians 4 as their primary proof of a "secret coming." They then proceed to divide all scriptures that discuss the return of Jesus Christ into two categories. First are the scriptures that discuss the resurrection of the saints and their gathering to Christ. Secondly are the scriptures that discuss Christ taking vengeance on wicked and rebellious people and nations. Their idea is that these events are separated by a period of years. Let us carefully look at 1 Thessalonians 4 and see whether that is so.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]"We wish you not to remain in ignorance, brothers, about those who sleep in death; you should not grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again; and so it will be for those who died as Christians; God will bring them to life with Jesus. For this we tell you as the Lords word: we who are left alive until the Lord comes shall not forestall those who have died; because at the word of command, at the sound of the archangels voice and Gods trumpet call, the Lord himself will descend from heaven; first the Christian dead will rise, then we who are left alive shall join them, caught up in clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:1317, NEB).[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]This description is taken by rapture proponents to be descriptive of a secret coming of Christ, which will take Christians off to Heaven. But notice we are told that preceding this resurrection the trumpet of God is blown. What is that and when will it occur?[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Apostle Paul added more details when he wrote a letter to the Corinthian Church, located in a neighboring Greek city. "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changedin a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:5152). The specific supernatural trumpet that will be blown prior to the resurrection of the saints is dubbed "the last trumpet."[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Does the Bible anywhere speak of a series of supernatural trumpet blasts? The answer is a resounding yes! Revelation 8:12 describes the opening of the seventh and last of the seals which had closed the book of Revelation until they were removed one at a time by Jesus Christ. When the seventh seal was opened the Apostle John saw in vision seven angels standing before God and each receiving a trumpet. The angels proceeded to blow these trumpets one at a time signaling terrible ecological disasters followed by horrible warfare. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Now, let us notice Revelation 11:15: "Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." Verse 18 connects this seventh and final trumpet blast with the time when Gods wrath has come and when He would reward the saints. Clearly, when we look at these three sections of scripture it is very apparent that the seventh and last trumpet signals both the resurrection of the saints as well as the time when Christ returns to judge the nations. These are not two different phases of the Second Coming, separated by seven years, as most evangelical writers contend. Rather, the resurrection of the saints to immortality and the pouring out of Gods wrath on the nations begin at the same time and are both signaled by the same event, the blast of the seventh and final trumpet.[/FONT]

http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/lcg/studytopics/lcg-st.cgi?category=FalseReligion1&item=1116521711

...

zeke37 · Jul 3, 2008

A Brother In Christ said:
ABIC

so explain 1 thes 4:16-17

I will
OT saint are looking forward to getting eternal life 75 days after the 2nd coming ... Dan 12:2,11-12

Saints are Saints....Christ went to all that were dead and offered the same oppertunity that we have. So the dead in Christ include the OT Prophets.

Yet deal with 2 peter 1:4, and heb 11:39-40, eph 2:11-12 .... scripture says different opportunities

Hi....

and what? nothing to show a pre trib Gathering, as you assume

Dainiel is not said to be raised 75 days after. Just that there is a blessing in waiting....

Daniel 12:2....summary... resurrection some to eternal life other to Judgement

Daniel 12:11 Judgement... 1290 days or Three and half years from the abomination of desolation... Dan 9:26-27, matt 24:15-20, 2 thes 2:4

Daniel 12:12 blessing ..eternal life 1335 days blessing comes ... glorification and eternal life which are 75 days after the 2nd coming

and I answered adequately. the length of the week has been shortened. it is not 7 years cut in 2 halves...but it is 5 months cut in 2 halves....that is 150 days, or 2x75.

Satan is cast to earth and pretends to be Jesus in the middle of the week, or in this casre, 75 days.

if you wait, there is great blessings...if nopt, then you know.

remember that I have said in the past that the length of time has been shortened according to Mar13. And the length that it was shortened to is told in Rev 9. 150 days. That is one of the reasons that it shall be like in the days of Noah.

Rev 8:12 is where time will be sped up form 24 hr day to 16 hr day Matt 24:22 tells of this!as well as Mark 13:20

not so, it is the entire length that is shortened, and the Locust army seen in Rev9 lead by Satan, tells us the length. 150 days (2x75).

in Rev13, we see the rise of the two beasts. The first rises in the first 75 days. it is a political beast...a gathering together of nations called by some the NWO....(babylon)

the second beast of Rev13 is when Satan is cast to earth, in the midst of the week...and he looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon. It is Satan pretending to be Jesus.

the last hour, or great tribulation, or final week, or hour of temptation....was 7 years cut in half. Now it is shortened for the elect's sake. if it was just 16 hour days instead of 24 hours, that would not help the elect, would it? I do not see how. But if the entire length was shortened from 7 years to 5 months, then that would certainly help the elect. Preparing to live without assistance(not take the mark of the beast) is much easier to do for 5 months than 7 years.

Satan arrives at the 1/2 way point of the hour of temptation, that you assume is still 7 years cut in half. It is not that long anymore.

No still seven years with seasons

no, 5 months with only one season, the season of the Locust...see Joel 2 and add Rev9

As in the flood of Noah, the waters prevailed 150 days...
The end time tribulation will be the same length of time.

So you are using

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the Ark.

wow... The world will do exactly this Till the Rapture... then the Beast will sign a peace treaty and sevn years later the 2nd coming .

not till the pre trib rapture, but to the post trib rapture. There is no pre trib rapture. God will not keep us from the fire, but He will sustain us through it.

there will be no signing by Satan...He is going to pretend to be Jesus Christ, not a war monger. his mere presence will be enough to stop ALL wars, and usher in the peace that we know he comes in on. They think he is Jesus, so all countries unite. they sign peace treaties, but he as an individual won't. he is not going to be a politicial, but the fallen angel Satan, pretending to be the retunring (rapturing) Jesus, and he has supernatural powers, that will fool the world.

But 1 thes 5:1 -2 Believer have no need to know this as the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night ... destruction and lost

Revelation means the revealing, to be revealed, not hidden.

what is taught is that they already know how it is going to happen.

they know that it will be like in Noah's days, when the folks were living life and not worried or even thoinking of Noah's warnings that the flood ws coming.

and the fallen angels that were there, were the ones that were being married to the women. The type for us is that when Satan returns with his angels, they will spiritually defile women (the bride of Christ to be) and have them spiritually impregnated....so that they are with child....spiritually.... with Satan's offspring, instead of waiting for Christ and being His bride...they are not worthy and are harlots (spiritually)

the reason why it shall come as a theif in the night, is because no one will expect that time to be upon them...

the reason they will not expect it, is because they will think that God (Jesus) is already one arth with them.

some will not even know that they are in the flood until Christ arrives adn they see the change that is going to happen.

others will come out of Babylon right at the end of the 5 months, when God Himself speaks through the elect witnesses when they testify against Satan at the very end of the tribulation, and from that testimony others hear God's voice coming from the elect witnesses and repent...thus becoming the 144,000...and Christ's bride.

it will be like in the days of Noah for many reasons...the fallen angels, impregnation (spiritually), not expecting it to happen, the length of the waters being on the earth, the use of the word flood...many more too!

And like in Daniel, the time is divided in two.

the first half (75 days) is ruled by the kings of the earth in the NWO system. Satan controls the events from the spiritual world but is still waring in heaven.

the second half (75 days) starts with Satan being cast from heaven to the earth to play act Jesus.

So you deny Daniel 70th week which is one week is 7 years... why prophesy of the first 69 weeks fulfilled... literally

I do not deny anything, Christ taught that the time is shortened for the elect's sake, otherwise no one would overcome...Satan woiuld fool everyone if God had not shortened the days...

no man or no angel knoweth the day....

I do not deny it, I realize it's fulfillment.

if one is faithful to the true Jesus and waits the 75 days until He arrives, that would mean that the person is elect because they were not fooled by Satan's flood of lies.

there is your 75 days. it is the midst of the week.....it is when the church becomes apostate. There is no pre trib Gathering to Christ.

75 days marks the midst of the week, Satan's arrival...

stay faithful to Christ in the following 75 days, and you'll have a grand reward...accept the first Jesus that comes (claiming that the ptre trib rapture is soon to come, and he will do this while he is walking the earth) then you have the mark of the ebast. Pre trib is setting you up to believe that lie.

NT saints can be change in a moment and is a mystery that God did not tell anyone till Paul... Eph 3:2,9

the "at any moment" doctrine is false. that is not true. There is much prophesy still to go. Christ does not return till the 2nd Advent. the apostasy and the son of perdition must be revealed before the Gathering to Christ.

Next prophecy ... the Rapture... Just as Noah God pulls out the saved and Judges the world...

just as Noah and his falily did, the elect shall ride out the storm....Noah stayed on earth and let the flood take the world while they rode it out. They were not removed from the earth, but they were kept safe during that time, just as the elect shall be in that last hour. God needs witnesses and He is creating an army one arth right now, to do spiritual battle witht he enemy, until it is time to witness against him, and usher in the new age...

the Saints that believe during the seven years ... get OT promises and if Killed rev 7:9,14 as servants not as ruler as We get to do... 1 cor 6:2-3, phil 2:9-11 where at the Great White throne... rev 20:11-15

If one is in Christ, even if the choice is made after death as it must have been for all the OT Saints and prophets....one would return with Him at the trump of God/last trump/7th trump...as the Olivette prophesies say, and 1Thes4, 1Cor15, Re11, 14...they shall be gathered together...as Rev20 says. They are the first fruits, and any that God says is in that group is in htat group....IMO, the two olive trees(two witnesses) are Moses and Elijah...and they are OT prophets....coming here to help out the elect witnesses in that last half hour...

the "mystery" of Eph3:9 is not pre trib rapture, but that the gentiles should be joint heirs.....defined in verse 6....receive the promises of God as the Israelites

con't/

zeke37 · Jul 3, 2008

Gal 3:28 where there is either Jew or Gentile

you are using these scriptures as proofs for pre trib rapture, yet not even one of them is a proof for pre trib. all of them were about other topics...all of them???

why?

1 cor 10:32 Jews, Gentiles , and the Church of God

people in the Church of God = church not Jew or Gentile

not sure what you are saying here? or why? Is this related to pre trib???

Mystery defined.. Romans 16:25-26, eph 3:9-10, col 1:26

wrong

Rom 16:25-26 is defined in verse 20. the elect shall bruise Satan under their feet. Not even close here ABIC.

Col1:26 is defined in verse 27...again the gentiles have the promise that was thought to be reserved for only the Jew. Christ.

Rapture is a mystery .... 1 cor 15:51-54 given only to the Church

the mystery is not the Gathering to Christ, but rather the fact that "we shalll not all die, but be changed" at the Last trump.

nothing about pre trib, but it does say that the time is when the dead are gathered together with the alive...when we are changed.

and the olivelle prophesies say this same event (Gathering of elect from haven and earth) happens after the tribulation of those end days. AFTER is when the Gathering is. Why don't you believe?

see Mar13:24-27

OT saints knew that They could escape death and watch as Christ comes for the 2nd coming...

but the scriptures you gave did not support you position. They do not speak of a pre trib mass gathering to Christ. And OT Saints did not know much of that time...they were given the prophesies, but told that they would not be understood until the final generation, (by the elect through the Holy Spirit, as we learn)

Jews promised the Earth.. Matt 5:5

meek does not represent the Jews, but ALL the overcomers. Maybe some will be Jewish!!!

Eph 2:11-12 .... Gentile had no promise prior to the cross... Matt is prior at this point

any gentile could become one of the fold. And God uses who ever He wants to, to fulfill prophesy...

Church ...Gal 3:28....

what I see here is that we are all the same in God's eyes....is that the right scripture you meant?

Eph 2:11-12 how close could a gentile get to God during Law.... and if they became a Jewish proceylte they could not go in the tabernacle or Temple but on the outside of its gates only

how does this have any bearing on our discussion of pre or post trib Gatherig?

Phil 3:20-21 promised the heavens

well, we shall all have a body like His, whether we be dead in Christ, or alive and remain until He comes back at the 2nd Advent. 1Cor15. they are talking about the fact that we are to believe that He shall come back. No time frame given...

Part of Christ now... 1 cor 12:12-13

no division between Jew and gentile...no rapture there.

God wrath goes upon earth dwellers... Not himself

why would His wrath go on Himself? Why would you say not Himself???

Who was Saul presecuting in Acts 9:4 was this Christ or believers .... both Christ is the Head of the body eph eph 1:22-23 where we are all one connected by the indwelling of God where we get Eternal life upon belief
ok, again what does this have to do with the subject of rapture?

His wrath is for all who fail the test of the antiChrist. Even Christians who fail the test.

So Christ was not faithful to Adam and eve when they repent not.... or did God make them clothing... Gen 3:21

huh? if Adam and Eve repented, then they are forgiven...IMO I'd think that they did when they were given the chance by Jesus, between the crusifixion and the resurrection

When David slept with Uriah's wife Did God kill Him according to the Law! Romans 4:6-8

God punnished him worse than killing him...took his love and his child...and David knew that he was wrong and repented....God chose David for a reason. He is a type to us...murder is not the unforgivable sin even??? following Satan willingly is the unforgivable sin.

if God is not mad at you, you could stand in His wrath and it would not harm you at all. And God does not send His wrath until the 144,000 are Gathered together on Mt Zion at the Last(7th) trump.

If anyone who denys the Gospel during our time of grace they will believe the lie... 2 thes 4:9-10 , and be killed during the Great Trib...

pure hollywood....no fact.

those that believe the lie, God has blinded many of them to the truth for their own good...keeps them innocent of the blastpheme that they will soon be guilty of-worshiping Satan as God returned) and the lie is that Jesus comes first to rapture you away....

in reality, Satan is going to come first, and will pretend to be Jesus come to rapture you away( in his good time, when all who will be are ready, lol).

no one will be killed in the tribulation hour. none at all....it is about temptation. either one is marked of the best or one is sealed of God....and Rev9 teaches us that neither can be killed, only hurt...think of it as a spiritual death if they follow this fake Jesus that comes first....Satan comes on the wings of peace

ABIC
Zeke37
ABIC rsponse

Zeke37 ... no response?

not enough time in the day....very busy lately..and a bad internet connection.

in His service
c

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 3, 2008

But 1 thes 5:1 -2 Believer have no need to know this as the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night ... destruction and lost

Revelation means the revealing, to be revealed, not hidden.

That would be correct.......

http://www.scripture4all.org/

2 Corin 3:14 But was hardened/epwrwqh <4456> (5681) the minds of them. For until the today day, the same covering/kalumma <2571> upon the reading of the Old Covenant is remaining, no being up-covered That In Christ it is being-taken-away.

Revelation 1:1 An-from-covering/un-veiling/apo-kaluyiV <602> Jesus Christ, which gives to him,

A Problem With The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

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