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A Pro-Choice Consideration
- Thread starter Dyrwen
- Start date
feral
Dostoyevsky was right
Dyrwen...good post. I completely agree. I personally could never have an abortion and I would encourage those close to me to examine other alternatives if they were in such a situation. I happen to feel that in most cases other then rape, abortion is used inappropriately. So I'm pro-life. However, I am pro-choice...because I am not in a position to make that choice for everyone. I recognize that other adults have the same right to make their choices, just as I do, even when I strongly disapprove.
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Fiendishjester
Devil's advocate
Bulldog: I don't have time for a full-fledged response, but I'll give you something to start with.
Lumping abortion together with murder and rape is illogical. Murder and rape are acts based on malicious intent. I've never met anyone, and probably never will meet anyone, who would abort a fetus with any kind of malicious intent. No one wants to abort their child because they enjoy it. This is what separates murder and rape, as crimes with legal consequences, from abortion.
Lumping abortion together with murder and rape is illogical. Murder and rape are acts based on malicious intent. I've never met anyone, and probably never will meet anyone, who would abort a fetus with any kind of malicious intent. No one wants to abort their child because they enjoy it. This is what separates murder and rape, as crimes with legal consequences, from abortion.
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Magisterium
Praying and Thinking
Well Arizona,arizona_sunshine said:
First, it is you (and those who hold your position) who have made this into a "Woman's Rights" issue! In fact, all attempts to require the father's consent before granting an abortion have been vehemently opposed on the very point that it's a woman's body and her choice alone! So quit your wining about
"the short end of the stick"...
However, it must be also be said that women do not in fact carry all of the burden of this problem. Deadbeat men who lack the backbone and resolve to fulfill their responsibilities are just as much to blame.
As for my "pious and offensive" position, I noticed that you didn't bother to address the scientific facts I stated in my first post on this thread... About the first act of self preservation happening before cell division begins... In fact, If you know what flippant means it should be obvious that to call a human life a "choice" is to be flippant in the worst of all ways!
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Just a few comments. First of all, people who are pro-life are not pro-life unless they don't eat. As you should have realized everybody eats living things. So you must mean pro- Human life. But this leads us to the question of what is an Human being. You seem to have the opinion that a potencial Human being is a Human being, what cannot be true. At least I think that's a poor definition of an Human being. Two cells don't make an Human, three cells neither, or 500, etc. Even the fact that the heart is beating cannot be used to define what an Human being is. A person is declared dead if he hasn't brain activity. this and the fact that what makes us distintively Humans is the use of the brain should be used to define what an human being is (i.e. the presence of brain activity).
This is an issue that is being discussed in my country at the present. There women here that are being trialed for having aborted, and that is sad.
This is an issue that is being discussed in my country at the present. There women here that are being trialed for having aborted, and that is sad.
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Magisterium
Praying and Thinking
First of all, you must learn what the words you are using mean. First of all human. Human refers to the genus and species of the homo-sapient. It is a scientific fact that when the genetic material of a male and female homosapient combine, the outcome will necessarilly be another homo sapient. Therefore, Scientifically speaking, (apart from any religious discussion of a soul) we have established that from conception, we have unique homo-sapient "material".Dirac_Delta said:
Next we must determine if it is a "being". Again, scientifically speaking, the most fundamental of all life indicators is metabolism. Once the egg and sperm unite, metabolism begins. Additionally, the first act of self preservation (see my first post in this thread) occurs before cell division even begins. So therefore, according to strictly scientific standards, we have at conception, a discernable unique organism of the homo-sapient genus/species.
Think this is new information? It's not! In fact, this Objective scientific criterion for the discernment of life was disregarded in the Roe Vs. Wade decision in favor of a Subjective appearance-based criterion. This travesty is not apparent to the unlearned and therefore many have substituted passion for solid understanding. As a result, they have placed much emotion behind a faulty premise.
This is also why there are many who oppose Roe Vs. Wade on simply legal, scientific, and ethical grounds. Appearance is the absolute least reasonable or definitive criterion to discern human (or any other) life.
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Fiendishjester
Devil's advocate
Bulldog: I'm not trying to make it into a religious issue. There were Christians who stated that they weren't pro-choice because of their religion. I was pointing out that this is a blaring contradiction. That answer was specifically for that group of Christians.
I would say something similar to an atheist. People should be free to make their own choice concerning abortion, and it is wrong to impose our beliefs on them. Ethically speaking, being pro-choice is the best option, because it is synonymous with being pro-freedom. It does not necessarily mean that the atheist must be pro-abortion. It just means that everyone should have the right to decide for themselves what they believe is the best option.
I would say something similar to an atheist. People should be free to make their own choice concerning abortion, and it is wrong to impose our beliefs on them. Ethically speaking, being pro-choice is the best option, because it is synonymous with being pro-freedom. It does not necessarily mean that the atheist must be pro-abortion. It just means that everyone should have the right to decide for themselves what they believe is the best option.
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Fiendishjester
Devil's advocate
Are you saying that abortion is murder? I already explained why it wasn't. If you're saying that abortion justifies murder without consequences, I already explained why that's not true, and putting them in the same category is illogical.
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Bulldog
Don't Tread on Me
Fiendishjester said:
You're argument was that abortion wasn't murder because it was not done with malicous intent. 2 things:
1) There are actually in very rare cases women who do kill the fetus with malacious intent, because they view the fetus as a sort of "invader".
2)Does killing have to be done with malacious intent to be murder. Threr are 2 requirements for a killing to be murder, that it is intentional and that it is the killing of an innocent life.
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Fiendishjester
Devil's advocate
If there are cases of women aborting their children with malicious intent, (and I would like to see evidence for this,) then they should be dealt with accordingly. Other women shouldn't have to have their freedoms taken away because of a small minority. These women should be punished, because what they are doing is murder. Other women who don't do it with malicious intent should not be grouped in the same category as these women.
Second, I contend that the taking of an innocent life without malicious intent is not murder. Someone who kills another without malicious intent is not murdering them. It could be accidental, for example, in which case I wouldn't consider it murder at all. Even the legal system recognizes a distinction between murder and the taking of life without malicious intent.
Second, I contend that the taking of an innocent life without malicious intent is not murder. Someone who kills another without malicious intent is not murdering them. It could be accidental, for example, in which case I wouldn't consider it murder at all. Even the legal system recognizes a distinction between murder and the taking of life without malicious intent.
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Magisterium
Praying and Thinking
First of all, we need to understand what murder is by definition. Murder is "the unlawful taking of a human life". Therefore, some accidental deaths are still unlawful. For example, criminally negligent homicide, or reckless endangerment (resulting in homicide). Neither of these charges require malice, but both can result in similar penalties to crimes that involve malice.Fiendishjester said:
Additionally, for someone to know that abortion is the taking of a life, and to choose to do so for a matter of convienience or to avoid the burden of parenthood, consitutes a malicious contempt for said life. This scenario is legally comparable to any other parent who would kill their children to escape the pressures of parenthood. (for example Susan Smith)
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Hi....
Interesting subject. God did give man free will. We can do anything our spirit or depravity allow for. I do believe abortion kills humans. God gave us free will to do that. He also gave us free will to kill adult humans. He also gave us free will to rape children and adults. Does this mean that we should stand up for murder and rape? At some point, whether we agree fully with something or not, a stand must be made. Are we for this or for that. Laws are made and people punished for doing their free will that we dictate they are not allowed to do. In every area of life, we have free will and choice. We also have mores, laws and consequences. You are free to think pro-choice is the correct stand. I freely choose not to.
steve
Interesting subject. God did give man free will. We can do anything our spirit or depravity allow for. I do believe abortion kills humans. God gave us free will to do that. He also gave us free will to kill adult humans. He also gave us free will to rape children and adults. Does this mean that we should stand up for murder and rape? At some point, whether we agree fully with something or not, a stand must be made. Are we for this or for that. Laws are made and people punished for doing their free will that we dictate they are not allowed to do. In every area of life, we have free will and choice. We also have mores, laws and consequences. You are free to think pro-choice is the correct stand. I freely choose not to.
steve
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arizona_sunshine
Well-Known Member
A_B_liever
Well Arizona,
First, it is you (and those who hold your position) who have made this into a "Woman's Rights" issue! In fact, all attempts to require the father's consent before granting an abortion have been vehemently opposed on the very point that it's a woman's body and her choice alone! So quit your wining about
"the short end of the stick"...
I am not whining.
I am not talking about the choices available after pregnancy has occured. I was responding to your statement, "If a woman didnt want to get pregnant, she shouldnt have had sex."
Are you suggesting that a man was not part of the decision process at that time? My point is that he was very much involved in the decision making process at that time.
However, it must be also be said that women do not in fact carry all of the burden of this problem. Deadbeat men who lack the backbone and resolve to fulfill their responsibilities are just as much to blame.
Thank you, but having you 'cough that up' was not my goal. I am not blaming deadbeat men for unwanted pregnancies.
Rather: Irresponsible, careless couples.
As for my "pious and offensive" position, I noticed that you didn't bother to address the scientific facts I stated in my first post on this thread... About the first act of self preservation happening before cell division begins... In fact, If you know what flippant means it should be obvious that to call a human life a "choice" is to be flippant in the worst of all ways!
No, I did not respond to your scientific evidence. For me, this subject is not scientific. For me, life begins at conception, that is just the way I feel. If science has proven that to be true, awesome. But scientists often disagree so I will go with my feelings on this one.
If you have read all of my posts in this thread, not just my response to yours, I hope you will understand that I am not a woman's rights activist so much as a Christian who appreciates the free agency God has allowed us.
I have beliefs and standards for myself on the subject of abortion, but who am I to decide for someone else? I cannot decide for someone else, I cannot hold anyone else to my standard.
Believe me, I would never encourage someone I love to pursue an abortion, I would never encourage even an aquaintance to pursue an abortion. Ultimately, however, I do not see it as my decision.
Well Arizona,
First, it is you (and those who hold your position) who have made this into a "Woman's Rights" issue! In fact, all attempts to require the father's consent before granting an abortion have been vehemently opposed on the very point that it's a woman's body and her choice alone! So quit your wining about
"the short end of the stick"...
I am not whining.
I am not talking about the choices available after pregnancy has occured. I was responding to your statement, "If a woman didnt want to get pregnant, she shouldnt have had sex."
Are you suggesting that a man was not part of the decision process at that time? My point is that he was very much involved in the decision making process at that time.
However, it must be also be said that women do not in fact carry all of the burden of this problem. Deadbeat men who lack the backbone and resolve to fulfill their responsibilities are just as much to blame.
Thank you, but having you 'cough that up' was not my goal. I am not blaming deadbeat men for unwanted pregnancies.
Rather: Irresponsible, careless couples.
As for my "pious and offensive" position, I noticed that you didn't bother to address the scientific facts I stated in my first post on this thread... About the first act of self preservation happening before cell division begins... In fact, If you know what flippant means it should be obvious that to call a human life a "choice" is to be flippant in the worst of all ways!
No, I did not respond to your scientific evidence. For me, this subject is not scientific. For me, life begins at conception, that is just the way I feel. If science has proven that to be true, awesome. But scientists often disagree so I will go with my feelings on this one.
If you have read all of my posts in this thread, not just my response to yours, I hope you will understand that I am not a woman's rights activist so much as a Christian who appreciates the free agency God has allowed us.
I have beliefs and standards for myself on the subject of abortion, but who am I to decide for someone else? I cannot decide for someone else, I cannot hold anyone else to my standard.
Believe me, I would never encourage someone I love to pursue an abortion, I would never encourage even an aquaintance to pursue an abortion. Ultimately, however, I do not see it as my decision.
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DXRocker73
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Whenever people say that I'm taking away rights from women when I say I'm anti-abortion, it really makes me laugh.
Because by that logic, we stole Hitler's, Saddam Hussein's, Timothy McVeigh's, Charles Manson's, and every other murderer's rights when we arrested and condemned them. No American rights are being stolen by making abortion illegal again, on the contrary American rights are being insured by allowing all human lives to live. I'm afraid the "who am I to decide for you" argument is just worthless in this debate. Unless of course, you do think arresting and condemning murderers is deciding for someone else. It's no different than abortion.
Scientifically, the "fetus" (As Liberals prefer to dehumanize a baby with.) is both alive and human. Like it or not, you are killing in an abortion. The baby is not a potential anything. The baby is full-blown living human.
Because by that logic, we stole Hitler's, Saddam Hussein's, Timothy McVeigh's, Charles Manson's, and every other murderer's rights when we arrested and condemned them. No American rights are being stolen by making abortion illegal again, on the contrary American rights are being insured by allowing all human lives to live. I'm afraid the "who am I to decide for you" argument is just worthless in this debate. Unless of course, you do think arresting and condemning murderers is deciding for someone else. It's no different than abortion.
Scientifically, the "fetus" (As Liberals prefer to dehumanize a baby with.) is both alive and human. Like it or not, you are killing in an abortion. The baby is not a potential anything. The baby is full-blown living human.
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I feel like I can talk here because I have had an experience that relates to this issue. I was promiscious when I was a teenager, I did alot of self destructive things- because well.....There is ALOT more to my story so I can not explain it all, this is a quick reply. Anyway I ended up pregnant at the age of 16. The summer before my senior year. But then I realised for the first time in my life that my actions i.e. drugs, alcohol, suicidal tendancies where not only physically effecting me but this child.
My parents (upper middle class protastants) were devistated, what would people think!
where had they gone wrong? They knew I was doing 'bad things' but now everyone would know! Especially people at church! Why did this happen? Quite a pain for them....
I on the other hand think God helped me that way, I stopped doing drugs, drinking, and focused on the child inside. I also found out who my real friends were. I found God more from this than I had found at church, because I pursuded answers from God and Jesus myself.
Anyway I believed this pregnancy was a blessing to help me sort out my life. Why would I abort someone who was helping me? My parents told me they were to old to have a baby in the house, I would have to move, support myself, etc. (The father of this child was not really interested in any of this, he told me to do whatever I wanted, and he would be cool w/ whatever, including abortion). Adoption seemed the only logical answer. So I was working with a social worker who was telling me about how to find a family, etc. for a few months. then my sister who was married called me one day and told me an angel had appeared in a dream to her and told her the baby was meant for her and her husband. Turns out they had been trying for a child and her husband was pretty much sterile. So I went through 9 months of people staring and judgement and feeling lonely. I just think that what ever happens in your life, you must accept and work through it, you will be a stronger person for it, and God won't ever give you things you cannot handle. I am thankful that I had insight on my choice. I sometimes wish I could help other girls in that situation know how much I have grown from that experience. Adoption is always available, before my sister called I had looked at hundreds of family pictures and read their desires for a baby, even if you aren't ready to be a mommy someone else is. Signing the legal papers was incredibly hard, maybe the most emotional anguish I have ever been through, but I know i did what I had to do.Looking at him today is a miracle to me, he is now 8 years old! I owe alot to him and when he is older I will explain some of this to him in more depth. (Right now he knows I am his biological mom, and he has always know it, no secrets). The Lord works in mysterious ways. Hallelujah!
My parents (upper middle class protastants) were devistated, what would people think!
where had they gone wrong? They knew I was doing 'bad things' but now everyone would know! Especially people at church! Why did this happen? Quite a pain for them....
I on the other hand think God helped me that way, I stopped doing drugs, drinking, and focused on the child inside. I also found out who my real friends were. I found God more from this than I had found at church, because I pursuded answers from God and Jesus myself.
Anyway I believed this pregnancy was a blessing to help me sort out my life. Why would I abort someone who was helping me? My parents told me they were to old to have a baby in the house, I would have to move, support myself, etc. (The father of this child was not really interested in any of this, he told me to do whatever I wanted, and he would be cool w/ whatever, including abortion). Adoption seemed the only logical answer. So I was working with a social worker who was telling me about how to find a family, etc. for a few months. then my sister who was married called me one day and told me an angel had appeared in a dream to her and told her the baby was meant for her and her husband. Turns out they had been trying for a child and her husband was pretty much sterile. So I went through 9 months of people staring and judgement and feeling lonely. I just think that what ever happens in your life, you must accept and work through it, you will be a stronger person for it, and God won't ever give you things you cannot handle. I am thankful that I had insight on my choice. I sometimes wish I could help other girls in that situation know how much I have grown from that experience. Adoption is always available, before my sister called I had looked at hundreds of family pictures and read their desires for a baby, even if you aren't ready to be a mommy someone else is. Signing the legal papers was incredibly hard, maybe the most emotional anguish I have ever been through, but I know i did what I had to do.Looking at him today is a miracle to me, he is now 8 years old! I owe alot to him and when he is older I will explain some of this to him in more depth. (Right now he knows I am his biological mom, and he has always know it, no secrets). The Lord works in mysterious ways. Hallelujah!
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DXRocker73
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That's 50 blessings for you... for choosing life. May your courage and strength be a shining beacon of hope for all Mothers and even Fathers out there. God bless you.
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Something always seems to deter me from empathy, but I feel it's probably because some people have a story in their life that involves the thoughts and opinions of other people, rather than the thoughts of themselves.
I'd think if you're going through a decision such as birth, one might think about it as your decision and your partner's, not your parents, community, church, whoever. Just seems like undue stress that holds no reason to be brought upon.
This is your problem, this is your possible solution. The thoughts and mistreatment of others just shows you who you no longer need to consider as those who accept your choices. Too much of the pro-life angle occasionally becomes "What will they think?" Or even "What would Jesus do?" in many cases. It should be an issue of your own morality and your own decision making, not those of your community or family, and if you make it as such, one shouldn't place their fears or aspirations upon you as something you did not want.
If it is wrong for you to have an abortion, you know why and will do what you have to, if you feel it's right the same thing goes. Emotional involvement comes with children or the prevent of the same. Just doesn't seem to hold much reasoning when getting involved in debate outside of letting people know what they're in for. Just had to get that thought off of me because the story seemed so random at the time.
I'd think if you're going through a decision such as birth, one might think about it as your decision and your partner's, not your parents, community, church, whoever. Just seems like undue stress that holds no reason to be brought upon.
This is your problem, this is your possible solution. The thoughts and mistreatment of others just shows you who you no longer need to consider as those who accept your choices. Too much of the pro-life angle occasionally becomes "What will they think?" Or even "What would Jesus do?" in many cases. It should be an issue of your own morality and your own decision making, not those of your community or family, and if you make it as such, one shouldn't place their fears or aspirations upon you as something you did not want.
If it is wrong for you to have an abortion, you know why and will do what you have to, if you feel it's right the same thing goes. Emotional involvement comes with children or the prevent of the same. Just doesn't seem to hold much reasoning when getting involved in debate outside of letting people know what they're in for. Just had to get that thought off of me because the story seemed so random at the time.
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feral
Dostoyevsky was right
Finally...agreed on something. I don't understand why this always falls to the woman. I've never seen all those who condemn the "bad" mother for abortion out hounding the useless "father" to provide on-site physical care, financial support and emotional support to his children. It's usually presumed, apparently, that men just can't handle it and thus deserve to get off scot free....
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