A Pro-Choice Consideration

[professor frink]

Good points Cosmic,
I tried a similar angle a few pages back, saying that keeping abortions legal at least means they are being preformed by doctors, not with coat hangers, but apparently I am not allowed to hold that view and still think that murder in the classical sense should be illegal.

 

[Magisterium]

I don't understand how you can equate a small number of human cells (say10)with a Human Being. Of course you can define it that way but I think that's not very honest. I said it before but I will repeat it: what makes the difference between a zygote and a Human Being is the non-existence or existence, respectively, of brain activity (if it has no brain it cannot have brain activity). A person is declared dead if it has no brain activity.

You can continue to try to convince people that a single cell is a Human Being but you must admit that that comparation is a little bit forced.

I'm amazed to see such seemingly intelligent learned people completely ignorant of the scientific method of discerning life and it's type. As if that's not enough, all you have to do is remember back a few days ago when I educated you about the proper scientific discernment of life!

I'll give a brief refresher since memory is so short here!

First we have classification of life. They are Class, Order, Family, Genus, and Species. Animals are classified as belonging to the same species if they can interbreed. thus human beings are homo-sapiens.
It is a scientific fact that when two members of a species reproduce, the offspring will necessarilly be a member of that same species. Therefore, at conception, we have at once, a genetically unique organism of the homo-sapient species growing inside of the mother.
Further more, It is also a scientific fact that the most basic indicator of life is metabolism. (Not organs, eyeballs, or a certain number of cells!) The fact is, the egg has no metabolic processes until fertilization. However, at conception, metabolism begins instantaneously.
Therefore, it is a SCIENTIFIC FACT that human life begins at conception.
This is called an OBJECTIVE CRITERION.
The ideas that something must "look human" or "be of a certain size" are scientifically rediculous Subjective Criterion. Such a criterion are completely unreliable and therefore unacceptable. It is also scientifically rediculous that an organism which is genetically unique would be considered "part of a woman's body" like an organ. The bottom line is that abortion is homicide, plain and simple. (remember that homicide and murder differ in that murder is the unlawful taking of a human life)

 

[professor frink]

First we have classification of life. They are Class, Order, Family, Genus, and Species.

Actually the classifications are now Domain>Kingdom>Phylum>Class>Order>Family>Genus>Species.

Animals are classified as belonging to the same species if they can interbreed. thus human beings are homo-sapiens.

This is one criterion. There are some different fish species that can interbreed to produce viable offspring.

It is a scientific fact that when two members of a species reproduce, the offspring will necessarilly be a member of that same species. Therefore, at conception, we have at once, a genetically unique organism of the homo-sapient species growing inside of the mother.

At conception there are two genetically unique cells

Further more, It is also a scientific fact that the most basic indicator of life is metabolism. (Not organs, eyeballs, or a certain number of cells!) The fact is, the egg has no metabolic processes until fertilization. However, at conception, metabolism begins instantaneously.

Metabolism is one of the criterion for life. Every living cell has functioning metabolic processes. Eggs, sperm, zygote cells...

Therefore, it is a SCIENTIFIC FACT that human life begins at conception.

No, the sperm and egg are alive before conception.

It is also scientifically rediculous that an organism which is genetically unique would be considered "part of a woman's body" like an organ.

Chloroplasts in plants have genetic material that is unique to them and is not shared by other parts of the plant. Yet they are part of the plant...

The bottom line is that abortion is homicide, plain and simple. (remember that homicide and murder differ in that murder is the unlawful taking of a human life)

False dichotomy.

Lean some science if you want people to take you seriously.

 

[DXRocker73]

Sperm and eggs together make one life, before then they are two seperate things...

Homicide:

1. The killing of one person by another.
2. A person who kills another person.

Yeah that pretty much covers it. Abortion is now homicide by dictation of the dictionary. But let me guess... the unborn baby isn't a person right? I'm guessing you believe that as most pro-abortion people do.

But I seriously have to ask what gives you the right to declare who and who isn't a person? It's awfully hypocritical to declare rights of women while you dictate who and who isn't a person. Personhood isn't your nor my right to decide for.

 

[professor frink]

Sperm and eggs together make one life, before then they are two seperate things...

Yes, but you stated that egg cells have no metabolism, which you said was THE criterion for life. I was just correcting your false statement.

Homicide:

1. The killing of one person by another.
2. A person who kills another person.

1. 
   Might want to get another dictionary. Homocide is not a person, it is an act.

Yeah that pretty much covers it. Abortion is now homicide by dictation of the dictionary. But let me guess... the unborn baby isn't a person right? I'm guessing you believe that as most pro-abortion people do. [\QUOTE]
I don't know of anybody that is pro-abortion. Abortion is a very sad occurence. People don't get abortions because they think its fun. If you stop attacking people that disagree with you, they might actually start to listen to you.

But I seriously have to ask what gives you the right to declare who and who isn't a person?

You have been declaring that zygotes are people. What gives you this right?

It's awfully hypocritical to declare rights of women while you dictate who and who isn't a person. Personhood isn't your nor my right to decide for.

While the baby is inside the mother, attached to the mother, and feeding from the mother, the mother is the only logical person to make this decision. Whats next? Are you going to try and outlaw miscarriages and put women who have miscarriages in jail?

 

[DXRocker73]

Yes... let's twist the logic of the pro-life movement by using accidents against their arguments. Are most miscarriages intentional? Didn't think so.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I find it very annoying. I never once said metabolism was the criterion for life.

How I declare "zygotes" a person is the fact that they are scientifically human and alive. Want proof?

Human:

Human means one of the biological beings who be-longs to the species Homo Sapiens. Such beings are unique from all other beings in that they have 46 human chromosomes in every cell. Such beings do not belong to the rabbit family, the carrot family, etc

Alive:

Alive means that this being is growing, developing, maturing, and replacing its own dying cells. It means not being dead.

Those are the scientific classifications... now let's go to the dictionary:

Human:

1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
2. A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica.

Alive:

1. Having life; living. See Synonyms at living.
2. In existence or operation; active: keep your hopes alive.
3. Full of living or moving things; abounding: a pool alive with trout.
4. Full of activity or animation; lively: a face alive with mischief.

Now... Person:

1. A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson.
2. An individual of specified character: a person of importance.
3. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.
4. The living body of a human: searched the prisoner's person.
5. Physique and general appearance.
6. Law. A human or organization with legal rights and duties.
7. Christianity. Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as distinguished from the essence of the Godhead that unites them.
8. Grammar.

1. <LI type=a>Any of three groups of pronoun forms with corresponding verb inflections that distinguish the speaker (first person), the individual addressed (second person), and the individual or thing spoken of (third person).
2. Any of the different forms or inflections expressing these distinctions.
3. A character or role, as in a play; a guise: “Well, in her person, I say I will not have you” (Shakespeare).

Still not a person? Number 1-5 just proved my case 100%. Now I imagine you'll use number 6 against me, but before you might, don't bother before Roe vs. Wade, unborn babies had every legal right to live. Are they suddenly not people just because a judge banged his gavel?

Might want to get another dictionary... what are you talking about? When did I ever say homicide wasn't an act? There you go putting words in my mouth again.

 

[professor frink]

Further more, It is also a scientific fact that the most basic indicator of life is metabolism.

Homicide:

1. The killing of one person by another.
2. A person who kills another person.

These are your posts. This is you saying that metabolism is the criterion for life, and you saying that homocide is a person.

 

[DXRocker73]

DUDE!

Have you even read my screen name... DXRocker73. And you're quoting Magisterium saying I said what he said. At least know who you're debating with.

However your bottom quote is an excerpt from the dictionary, I seriously fail to see how you got the idea anyone was saying homicide a person from that. Are you even reading these posts or just skimming them?

 

[professor frink]

DUDE!

Have you even read my screen name... DXRocker73. And you're quoting Magisterium saying I said what he said. At least know who you're debating with.

However your bottom quote is an excerpt from the dictionary, I seriously fail to see how you got the idea anyone was saying homicide a person from that. Are you even reading these posts or just skimming them?

Sorry...got confused...

 

[DXRocker73]

Thanks. That's all I needed.

 

[professor frink]

In future, I shall not allow myself to post in the morning without first drinking coffee.

 

[DXRocker73]

Hey man I could've told you that. I can relate. It appears we've found common-ground.

 

[Magisterium]

Actually the classifications are now Domain>Kingdom>Phylum>Class>Order>Family>Genus>Species.

This is one criterion. There are some different fish species that can interbreed to produce viable offspring.

At conception there are two genetically unique cells

Metabolism is one of the criterion for life. Every living cell has functioning metabolic processes. Eggs, sperm, zygote cells...

No, the sperm and egg are alive before conception.

Chloroplasts in plants have genetic material that is unique to them and is not shared by other parts of the plant. Yet they are part of the plant...

False dichotomy.

Lean some science if you want people to take you seriously.

First of all, let's talk about learning some science....

First of all, thank you for adding the top 3 biological classifications to my list. I was well aware of them but omitted them in favor of not including extraneous information. In fact, genus and species are all I was concerned with for the scope of that statement.

As for the obscure fish exception to the rule of species, I was unaware of that. I'm no marine biologist. However, it is still an exception. The definition of species relating to this statement is:
a category of biological classification ranking immediately below the genus or subgenus, comprising related organisms or populations potentially capable of interbreeding, and being designated by a binomial that consists of the name of a genus followed by a Latin or latinized uncapitalized noun or adjective agreeing grammatically with the genus name
In fact, the ability to interbreed is the main differentiation between species and genus! So your appeal to some obscure exception to the rule is moot and indicates nothing.

Further more, not all biological material is living (or metabolizing)! Some basic examples are hair, tooth enamel, and fingernails. For your information, The egg before fertilization is NOT metabolizing! (Look it up!). Additionally, the genetic material contained within it is the same as the mother's. However, at conception, there is an "explosive" reaction in which the egg instantaneously begins the processes of metabolism and development. It is true however that sperm is metabolizing when it leaves the man. However, I am well aware of this and never stated otherwise.

Again you point to an irrelevant obscure fact which has no bearing on the point. That a plant has this unique feature has no bearing on the discussion of human beings. Every living cell which belongs to a human organism contains that person's genetic information whole and entire. I pointed out that from conception, we have a "genetically unique" metabolizing human. All of your obscure reference and distractions did nothing to intelligently dispute that fact.

However, I would like to thank you for the useless information about the plant with genetically unique components and the different fish species who can interbreed. I'll try to remember that in case it comes up in my next game of trivial pursuits.

 

[professor frink]

First of all, let's talk about learning some science....
Further more, not all biological material is living (or metabolizing)! Some basic examples are hair, tooth enamel, and fingernails. For your information, The egg before fertilization is NOT metabolizing! (Look it up!).

What I said was that all LIVING cells undergo metabolizm. As for the rest of the science in your post, I don't disagree.