A pre-Tribulation Rapture: Lengthy

[geocajun]

Did you see him teach this as sole truth? I am very proud of him for the work he put into his theory...

This is alot of hard work

I see alot of people coming down pretty hard on the kids here. Maybe we should just try be a little easier on the kids here and perhaps a little more patient?

Christy, are you sure you aren't just a little biased since its your son?
I do not see where anyone was less than charitable in their response myself.

 

[Christy4Christ]

Yes I probably am a little biased

My kid is brilliant after all!

 

[Benedicta00]

Up until about 1830, the possibility of a post-tribulation rapture was not unheard of, but a pre-trib rapture was considered non-biblical because it would result in 3 comings of Christ--------bethlehem, Rapture, start of millenilal reign--------the Bible only speaks of 2 comings of Christ.

More work from others:



While I don't believe that belief in a rapture is forbidden, I do believe that it is unlikely to be a pre-tribulation rapture as described by the 'left behind' series. The subject, while interesting, is, I believe, distracting. Consider these words of Jesus.

Matthew 6:34
"So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.



I simply don't know enough to judge, so I won't.

Jerome, I really do think the “left behind’ books have been for the most part unofficially condemned or al least it is recommended that Catholics do not read them.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I think the work and thoughtfulness put into the OP and the presentation was very well done. No question about it. I think if he does a little more studying of the issue, that when he sees the overall picture, and then puts it all together, it is going to be awesome!

There is one really big issue that has to be dealt with in the Pretribulation rapture . .that is it creates the necessity for 3 comings of Jesus . . which are not prophesied at all in the bible.

The extra coming in this theory, is a secret hidden coming. . there is no such thing in all of scripture.

Jesus said every eye woud see Him when He came again, that He would come in the clouds the same way they saw Him leave.


As a Prtoestant, I beleived in the Pre-tribulation rapture for quite a while, then I began to see the problems with it . .

Now, I see a broader view of the whole issue, and the only "rapture" that will occur is that when we are caught up with Him when He visibly returns.

The ancient idea expressed in being "caught up" is the same as that of a King returning home, and the subjects would go out and meet him on the road and escort him home ..

This is what the 'rapture' will be . . we will be caught up in the air to meet Him and escort Him to earth. Paul was describing the Return of the King and drawing the parallel between Christ's return and that of a King's return to His people.


Peace in Him!

 

[nyj]

I’m going to take the original post (OP) in pieces, as I’m sort of pressed for time. Hopefully, over the next couple days, I’ll be able to complete an analysis of the entire thread and show exactly why belief in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is untenable with the Catholic faith.

Remember, Philadelphia was the only Church with no harsh words directed at them, they are faithful. If you skip ahead to chapter 4 and verse 1 you would read this, Revelation 4:1 “After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice which I heard as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show thee the things which must take place after these things”. After this, the definitive statement. Remember, the FAITHFUL CHURCH, was told they had an open door in heaven.

I don’t know how you make this connection. In Revelation 4:1, John, not the Church in Philadelphia, is being spoken to directly. John makes it clear that the Revelation is revealed to him and him alone in the first two sentences of this book:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.​

Therefore, while I hate to dismiss the above mentioned comment, and comments made immediately below, I have to because of what appears to simply be faulty exegesis.

So after the voice from inside the door said “Come up here” John saw everything from then on from above the Earth. Implying that he was no longer on Earth, correct?

In a spiritual sense (Revelation 4:2), not a physical sense.

John, St. John or John the Divine, it doesn’t matter, John was the picture of the faithful. The phrase “come up here”, would signify, well, come up here. 95% of the Revelation of St. John is prophecy, so it is safe to say that “come up here” is a picture of the Rapture. Also, the term Rapture is never found in the Bible, but the term “caught up” is. Rapture means, to be caught up, so if St. John was told to come up here he was caught up.

Revelation 4:2 directly contradicts these comments you have made. John specifically says that he was “caught up in spirit”, implying that he was having visions. This has no correlation to a "rapture" which Pre-/Post-Tribulation adherents claim is a physical as well as spiritual experience. Many prophets were given visions, John is no exception. As a matter of fact, what John relates to us in Chapter 4 has extremely strong ties to Ezekiel Chapter 1. In that Chapter, Ezekiel relates that the “heavens open up, and I saw divine visions”. Notice the parallel between what Ezekiel writes and what John writes. No one accuses Ezekiel of being raptured however.

Also, it should be noted the day that John was "caught up in spirit. The seventh day. The Sabbath day of the Church. Therefore, John is not being raptured to avoid tribulation, John is being shown a vision of the Heavenly Worship.



As David Chilton is his book "The Days of Vengeance" (p. 147-8*) relates:

Nevertheless, we must also recognize that St. John does ascend to a worship service on the Lord’s Day; and this is a clear image of the weekly ascension of the Church into heaven every Lord’s Day where she joins in the communion of saints and angels “in festal array” (Heb. 12:22-23) for the heavenly liturgy. The Church acts out St. John’s experience every Sunday at the Sursum Cords, when the officiant (reflecting Christ’s Come up here!) cries out, Lift up your hearts! and the congregation sings in response, We lift them up to the Lord! We noted in an earlier chapter the comment of St. Germanus that “the Church is an earthly heaven”; the Patriarch continued: “The souls of Christians are called together to assemble with the prophets, apostles, and hierarchs in order to recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the mystical banquet of the Kingdom of Christ. There by having come into the unity of faith and communion of the Spirit through the dispensation of the One who died for us and is sitting at the right hand of the Father, we are no longer on earth but standing by the royal Throne of God in heaven, where Christ is, just as He Himself says: ‘Righteous Father, sanctify in Your name those whom You gave me, so that where I am, they may be with Me’ (cf. John 17).”​

*This refers to physical copy. The HTML version has these pages listed as 176-7.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Jerome, I really do think the “left behind’ books have been for the most part unofficially condemned or al least it is recommended that Catholics do not read them.

I read some before I was Catholic, even then they struck me as weird. I have no problem judging those books as comedy, but as to what will happen at the end of days I don't know. I will continue to follow the Catholic church.

Personally I am trying to decide between amillenialism vs partial preterism at this point. Pre-trib rapture does not seem consistent with the bible to me.

 

[Christy4Christ]

I read them all before I was anything...I wasn't even a practicing Christian when I read them ...they made me want to be though! That is one good thing I can say about the books, they make you think!

 

[Benedicta00]

I read some before I was Catholic, even then they struck me as weird. I have no problem judging those books as comedy, but as to what will happen at the end of days I don't know. I will continue to follow the Catholic church.

Personally I am trying to decide between amillenialism vs partial preterism at this point. Pre-trib rapture does not seem consistent with the bible to me.

Well I’ll tell you what I think, I have to worry about my own end time because as far as I know it will come tomorrow, (let hope not), so I can’t be worrying myself about the end time. If you are ready, your ready as we all should be so it really doesn’t matter which end comes first.

 

[nyj]

Personally I am trying to decide between amillenialism vs partial preterism at this point.

You can hold both. Preterism deals with whether or not Bible prophecy has been fulfilled or not. Amillenialism simply deals with a millenial reign according to Revelation.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Well I’ll tell you what I think, I have to worry about my own end time because as far as I know it will come tomorrow, (let hope not), so I can’t be worrying myself about the end time. If you are ready, your ready as we all should be so it really doesn’t matter which end comes first. Well I’ll tell you what I think, I have to worry about my own end time because as far as I know it will come tomorrow, (let hope not), so I can’t be worrying myself about the end time. If you are ready, your ready as we all should be so it really doesn’t matter which end comes first.

My thoughts exactly, which is why I posted:


Matthew 6:34
"So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I read them all before I was anything...I wasn't even a practicing Christian when I read them ...they made me want to be though! That is one good thing I can say about the books, they make you think!

God uses a lot of different words and images to show us the truth. I have heard of others, my wife included, with the same experience that you had Christy, but the books are rightfully in the fiction aisle.

I hope that your son is not offended by us. When I was young, I believed Hal Lindsey, jack Van Impe, etc, so I know how radically those beliefs can be held. I have had my biblical world view adjusted so much, I know how he feels, but it was necessary to grow. When faced with the truth, I had to admit that I am not a prophet of God, and I subjected myself to the teaching authority of the church. I pray that your son can do the same
I hope he knows we mean well

 

[Axion]

I think that a lot of people want to believe in the Rapture, because the tribulations of Revelation are so fearsome and frightening.

Personally I do not see the pre-trib rapture anywhere in the bible, and a reading of Jesus's own words in Matthew Chapter 24 seems to leave no room for such a belief.

Some of the prophecies in Revelation have already happened, some are happening now, and others are yet to come.

 

[Christy4Christ]

Revelation 3 :10-11

"Because you have kept my command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth" 11"Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown"

Sorry, it's just that you said you didn't see it anywhere in the bible, that could mean just that. Who is He going to be keeping from the trial that will come upon the whole earth? What trial is that?

I will be honest, I don't know what to believe. I do not say that I know for a fact what the above verses mean, I will just say what they sound like to me...

 

[Benedicta00]

Christy you may not know what to believe but there are some things you are required to believe as a Catholic and one of those things is Jesus coming two times, the first God incarnate and the second to claim his bride. If I may suggest that you read scripture in light of Tradition. The Catholic Church does not believe in the rapture.

 

[Christy4Christ]

Tell me Shelb, how do you interpret that scripture?

I realize The Church does not believe in 3 comings of Christ but we do believe in assumption and we also believe that all things are possible with God.

 

[Benedicta00]

Tell me Shelb, how do you interpret that scripture?

I realize The Church does not believe in 3 comings of Christ but we do believe in assumption and we also believe that all things are possible with God.

I interpret that Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end.

 

[Christy4Christ]

The truth is the verse does clearly say that He is going to spare those who have followed His command to persevere from the trial.. It's pretty plainly stated. What exactly do we believe that means? Thats really what I intend to ask. What does the church say about that? How will He be sparing us from the trial that comes upon the whole world?

 

[Christy4Christ]

Shelb read the verse. It says he will SPARE us from the trial that will come upon the whole earth to test those who dwell on earth. This means we will be spared but the rest that dwell on the earth will be tested by trial...doesn't it?

 

[Toney]

The truth is the verse does clearly say that He is going to spare those who have followed His command to persevere from the trial.. It's pretty plainly stated. What exactly do we believe that means? Thats really what I intend to ask. What does the church say about that? How will He be sparing us from the trial that comes upon the whole world?

It's a mystery.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Disciple 3,

I admire your passion and your devotion to Christ and his Word. I pray and hope that your passion and devotion continues and grows.

You will come to learn that in the Church's history there have been many great theologians and saints that we can learn from. By reading the Catechism and the writings of these great people of the Church along with the Bible, Scripture will take on a whole new life. Also remember to stay in a state of grace, frequently receiving the Sacraments.

As a devout Catholic for about 6 years now, I promise you that there is great wisdom in the Church. It is the authority given to us by Christ, along with his promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

So, my dear friend, continue in your studies and prayer, and I will pray that God will bless you greatly.