A Possible Different View of Covenant Theology

The Gryphon

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2018
541
222
Canyon Country
✟23,870.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I may have a somewhat different view on the Covenants of G_d that run through the Bible than most.

As Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The New Covenant does not replace the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. I believe they are a foundation upon which the New Covenant is built and the New Covenant in turn establishes and reaffirms the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. It's through the New Covenant that Jesus will give His people Israel a new heart and a new spirit so they can receive Him as their Messiah upon His return thus fulling the unconditional promises made in the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. Also fulfilling Romans Chapter 11.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Serving Zion

Serving Zion

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness
May 7, 2016
2,335
900
Revelation 21:2
✟223,022.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I may have a somewhat different view on the Covenants of G_d that run through the Bible than most.

As Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The New Covenant does not replace the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. I believe they are a foundation upon which the New Covenant is built and the New Covenant in turn establishes and reaffirms the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. It's through the New Covenant that Jesus will give His people Israel a new heart and a new spirit so they can receive Him as their Messiah upon His return thus fulling the unconditional promises made in the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. Also fulfilling Romans Chapter 11.
One thing for certain that has changed, is that there can be no greater blood offered to atone sin (Hebrews 10:4, Hebrews 10:29).
 
Upvote 0

Greg J.

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 2, 2016
3,841
1,907
Southeast Michigan
✟233,164.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I may have a somewhat different view on the Covenants of G_d that run through the Bible than most.

As Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The New Covenant does not replace the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. I believe they are a foundation upon which the New Covenant is built and the New Covenant in turn establishes and reaffirms the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. It's through the New Covenant that Jesus will give His people Israel a new heart and a new spirit so they can receive Him as their Messiah upon His return thus fulling the unconditional promises made in the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. Also fulfilling Romans Chapter 11.
The New Covenant was not build on the Old Covenant. It was build on Jesus alone. We have fulfilled all the conditions in the Old Covenant in Christ, and need not follow it at all. However, some of the requirements in the Old Covenant reveal God's nature (e.g., the Mosaic Law), and we must live according to His Spirit if we want to see eternal life.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17, 1984 NIV)

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
(Romans 8:3-4, 1984 NIV)
 
Upvote 0

dqhall

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2015
7,547
4,171
Florida
Visit site
✟766,603.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The New Covenant was not build on the Old Covenant. It was build on Jesus alone. We have fulfilled all the conditions in the Old Covenant in Christ, and need not follow it at all. However, some of the requirements in the Old Covenant reveal God's nature (e.g., the Mosaic Law), and we must live according to His Spirit if we want to see eternal life.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17, 1984 NIV)

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
(Romans 8:3-4, 1984 NIV)
The "Moses Covenant" required burnt offerings, heave offerings, sin offerings, peace offerings, meal offerings, trespass offerings, daily offerings, animal sacrifices, blood, incense offerings etc.

Numbers 10:10 (WEB) Also in the day of your gladness, and in your set feasts, and in the beginnings of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; and they shall be to you for a memorial before your God. I am Yahweh your God.

Jesus came to set people free from such burdens; see also Acts 15.

Psalm 51:16 (WEB) For you don't delight in sacrifice, or else I would give it. You have no pleasure in burnt offering.
 
Upvote 0

The Gryphon

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2018
541
222
Canyon Country
✟23,870.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The New Covenant was not build on the Old Covenant. It was build on Jesus alone. We have fulfilled all the conditions in the Old Covenant in Christ, and need not follow it at all. However, some of the requirements in the Old Covenant reveal God's nature (e.g., the Mosaic Law), and we must live according to His Spirit if we want to see eternal life.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17, 1984 NIV)

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
(Romans 8:3-4, 1984 NIV)

I agree with what you are saying except there are three covenants in the Old Testament; (1)The Abrahamic which is unconditional and eternal according to G_d's word, (2) Mosaic Covenant , which is conditional, and the Davidic Covenant which is again according to G_d's word unconditional and eternal. I am referring to the Abrahamic and the Davidic Covenants as well as their specific relationship to the New Covenant not only the Blood Sacrifice G_d made for all mankind but its ultimate fulfillment upon Yeshua's (Jesus) Return to earth as described both in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Brian Mcnamee
Upvote 0

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
65
usa
✟221,465.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I may have a somewhat different view on the Covenants of G_d that run through the Bible than most.

As Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The New Covenant does not replace the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. I believe they are a foundation upon which the New Covenant is built and the New Covenant in turn establishes and reaffirms the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. It's through the New Covenant that Jesus will give His people Israel a new heart and a new spirit so they can receive Him as their Messiah upon His return thus fulling the unconditional promises made in the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. Also fulfilling Romans Chapter 11.

I agree with what you are saying except there are three covenants in the Old Testament; (1)The Abrahamic which is unconditional and eternal according to G_d's word, (2) Mosaic Covenant , which is conditional, and the Davidic Covenant which is again accord to G_d's word unconditional and eternal. I am referring to the Abrahamic and the Davidic Covenants as well as their specific relationship to the New Covenant not only the Blood Sacrifice G_d made for all mankind but its ultimate fulfillment upon Yeshua's (Jesus) Return to earth as described both in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.
God makes a distinction when announcing the new covenant He said this covenant was not according to the one he made with them when they were delivered from Egypt. The covenant made with Abraham was unconditional. The one made in the desert was conditional. The LORD affirms this by also stating that when the new covenant comes in that as long as sun and moon keep their places Israel will not cease to be a nation in Gods eyes. He goes on to note that specific gates in Jerusalem will not be broken down ever again at a time when the land if full of dead bodies. You see Jesus announced the new covenant and also predicted the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. The scattering of Israel into all the nations for over 1800 years was known. So when Jesus announced this is the new covenant made in His blood it is very important to look at the promise of the new covenant the LORD made in Jer 31. The LORD in Jer 31 made a immediate assurance that Israel would not cease to be a nation. When Jesus brought in the new covenant Israel was going to be soon wiped off the map. This is there specifically so we would remember God is still mindful of the oath with Abraham about the land.
The covenant with Abraham is that he will father a great nation and in his seed all the world would be blessed. The covenant with the land is to Abraham's descendants who are the 12 tribes of Israel. Jer when predicting the destruction and Babylonian captivity notes in chapter 11 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Hear the words of this covenant, and speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem; 3 and say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD God of Israel: “Cursed is the man who does not obey the words of this covenant 4 which I commanded your fathers in the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and do according to all that I command you; so shall you be My people, and I will be your God,’ 5 that I may establish the oath which I have sworn to your fathers, to give them ‘a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day.” ’ ” You see God is going to keep His oath and has kept the covenant. This is a key prophecy in Luke one about Jesus made when Zacharias named John.
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

When you look at prophecy and include the salvation of national Israel God indeed keeps this oath as Jesus comes and destroys the armies of and antichrist and reigns from Jerusalem for 1000 years. The dead bodies in Jer are there and those gates will be torn down never again. Like says they will worship and serve the LORD with out fear and they are delivered from all their enemies. This is what happens in ZEch 14. The LORD comes and it is Jesus with all His saints and in that day the LORD is king over all the earth. In that day they will say The LORD is one. This is Israel recognizing Jesus as God. This is why they can serve Him in righteousness because they are saved. The prophecies are lining up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Gryphon
Upvote 0

The Gryphon

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2018
541
222
Canyon Country
✟23,870.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
So . . . by DIFFERENT, you mean that you AGREE with Covenant Theology? :D

Yes, well I see several covenants in the Old Testament plus the New Testament Covenant. First there is the Everlasting Abrahamic Covenant G_d made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all their descendants which is unconditional. Then there is the Mosaic Covenant which is conditional as in If Israel does this then G_d will do this. Thirdly there is the Davidic Covenant which is another eternal unconditional Covenant G_d made with David and his descendants of which Jesus is one. and lastly there is the New Covenant which is eternal and unconditional but I believe entails more than the average Christian understands as for shadowed in the Old Testament and expounded on in the New Testament. Too many people lump all Covenants in the Old Testament together and thereby missing a huge amount of their meaning as they also predict and directly relate to the New Covenant in essence acting as its foundation Biblically.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

msortwell

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2004
1,245
147
64
Gibson, Wisconsin
✟184,901.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I may have a somewhat different view on the Covenants of G_d that run through the Bible than most.

As Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The New Covenant does not replace the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. I believe they are a foundation upon which the New Covenant is built and the New Covenant in turn establishes and reaffirms the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. It's through the New Covenant that Jesus will give His people Israel a new heart and a new spirit so they can receive Him as their Messiah upon His return thus fulling the unconditional promises made in the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. Also fulfilling Romans Chapter 11.

Your view contains many of the most significant element of a traditional CT position . . .

A covenant always includes an “agreement” with conditions/requirements to which the parties of the covenant are bound. Violating the terms of the covenant invoke consequences stipulated within the covenant – generally curses. Conformance with the covenant also invokes consequences stipulated within the covenant – conditional promises, blessings.

I place “agreement” in quotes because the biblical covenants are generally NOT agreements established between participants in the way we would generally understand a contract today. Rather, the covenant is generally established by the sovereign one involved in the covenant that has authority over other participants in the covenant.

The first covenant declared in history was the Covenant of Works established by God with Adam. God promised eternal life (salvation/preservation) if Adam would refrain from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (i.e., be obedient). Death - spiritual and physical, upon Adam and his descendants was to be the cost of disobedience.

The next covenant was declared (often ascribed the title of The Covenant of Grace) soon after Adam's fall. God declared in Gen 3:15 that he would provide a redeemer that would overcome the works of Satan (i.e., he would, once and for all, overcome the result of sin - death). Trusting in THIS promise, God's provision of a redeemer that would overcome the death resulting from sin, was saving faith from the time of its declaration until today - the means by which it was accomplished being revealed with ever-increasing clarity.

Next, a non-salvific covenant (a covenant of common grace) was declared unto Noah - God would sustain His creation until the redemption declared in Gen 3:15 was bought to completion. God would (despite the depravity of man) preserve His creation (maintaining the seasons, and human governance) until the consummation of the Covenant of Grace (which we now Know is accomplished in the second coming of Messiah and the new heaven and new earth).

Later, God established his covenant with Abraham, in which God did not work out a deal with the man. He sovereignly told Abraham what he (God) was going to do. God declared that he would bless Abraham with a land and a Seed, and by that Seed all of the nations of the earth would be blessed. The provided further information regarding how the promise of Gen 3:15 was going to play out. Still, faith in God's gracious provision of salvation through a redeemer was saving faith - in some way still not totally clear (the full clarification would not come until the Holy Spirit worked in Paul to write Gal 3).

Later, God would establish another covenant with the people of Israel. This was a law covenant that was brought to the people through Moses, so we refer to it as the Mosaic Covenant (MC). But this Mosaic Covenant did not put an end to the Abrahamic Covenant (AC). This is why Moses pleaded with God with regards to the promise (covenant) made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob – the covenant of the seed - immediately AFTER having received the Law from God and the people were worshiping the golden calf. Both the MC and the AC were moving through history together - MC largely of law, and AC purely of grace.

When Paul wrote that Jesus was that Seed of the AC, and all those that were “in Christ” were children of the promise to Abraham (Gal 3) showing us that even the cross of Christ did not put an end to the Abrahamic Covenant. Rather, it was the consummation of that gracious covenant – that promise made to Abraham.

When we see writing in Scripture referring to “The Old Covenant” and “The New Covenant,” the distinction is generally between the laws and statutes of the MC under which Jesus, as a Jewish man, lived (and obeyed perfectly) and the AC which Jesus fulfilled as that Seed through whom every nation would be blessed – for he would bring into right relationship with God men of every tongue and tribe and nation.

Men now live under one of two Covenants
  1. The Covenant of Works make with Adam – Which he broke. A covenant more broadly expressed in the subset of laws given to Moses, the subset we call the 10 Commandments.
  2. The Covenant of Grace, first expressed vaguely in God’s promise that he would send one that would crush the head of the serpent. Later given further revelation as the Seed promised to Abraham – one that would bless all nations. Still later given fuller expression as the fulfillment of the promise (covenant) made with King David that his thrown would be eternal and he would have a righteous descendant that would reign eternally upon that thrown, an eternal son of David. A son that would build a house for God – that house being a people of God – even those in Christ and children of the promise made to Abraham. All this came to fruition when Jesus died, was buried, and rose again – paying the price of the sins of the elect.
Men are born under the Covenant of Works - Condemned by the Law.

If they come to faith in Christ, the one who obeyed the law perfectly, they are no longer condemned under the law. Their sin debt was paid by Christ's sacrifice and His righteous obedience is credited to them. They are saved by grace through faith, and that . . .

To be clear, the plan to redeem a people by the sacrifice of God the Son (to provide an exit for some from the sure damnation which comes from the covenant of works) was not formulated at the time of the garden fall. Rather, it was formulated in eternity past. It was formulated when a covenant was made between coequals before the foundation of the world – a covenant between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. A covenant that is necessarily inferred from the following:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Eph 1:3 – 6)

This is Covenant Theology in a nutshell. From before Genesis to revelation it is one story of God working out the redemption of His people through the sacrifice of God the Son - One Story - One Savior. My apologies to my reformed brothers for the shortcuts and abbreviations.
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,225
4,212
Wyoming
✟123,651.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I may have a somewhat different view on the Covenants of G_d that run through the Bible than most.

As Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The New Covenant does not replace the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. I believe they are a foundation upon which the New Covenant is built and the New Covenant in turn establishes and reaffirms the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. It's through the New Covenant that Jesus will give His people Israel a new heart and a new spirit so they can receive Him as their Messiah upon His return thus fulling the unconditional promises made in the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. Also fulfilling Romans Chapter 11.

I agree that the New Covenant does not replace, but instead fulfill, the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants, making them obsolete and unnecessary.

If we understand what a covenant is, it typically involves at least two parties regarding a promise that is conditioned upon some sort of terms. (Also, divine covenants involve a public representative for a certain group or body of people before God, called a federal head). Even though we don't directly read that the Abrahamic, or Davidic, Covenant was conditioned upon some sort of terms for the fulfillment of their promises at their commencement, yet it was in fact conditioned by the establishment of the Mosaic Covenant. These three covenants are not mutually exclusive to one another, they actual structure what we call the Old Covenant, or as the inspired writer of Hebrews calls it, the first covenant. The Old Covenant is the covenant relationship between God and Israel, and each of these covenants builds on that relationship. You cannot have the Abrahamic without the Mosaic, and you cannot have the Mosaic without the Davidic, and here I'll explain.

The Old Covenant, essentially by nature, is the basis for the existence of theocratic Israel. It was defined by the Abrahamic Covenant, conditioned by the Mosaic Covenant, and focused in the Davidic Covenant. Let's discuss each one, (the following is entirely taken from here, I give full credit to that work).

The Abrahamic Covenant, called the Covenant of Circumcision by Stephen in Acts 7:8, promised Abraham three things primarily. It promised him a land, a people, and a kingship. In other words, Abraham’s physical descendants would inherit the land and grow into an innumerable people ruled by their own kings. This was called the Covenant of Circumcision because circumcision was the sign of these blessings and separated Abraham’s offspring from the rest of the world as the heirs of these promises (This is not to say that circumcision had no further significance, but that the national promises were its primary referent).

Abraham was the federal head of this covenant because the promises were made to him and to his physical seed. All those who were of Abraham, or in Abraham we might say, were heirs of the national promises. This defined the membership of the covenant.

The Mosaic Covenant was added and attached to the Abrahamic Covenant in such a way that it conditioned the enjoyment of the Abrahamic blessings. God immutably promised Abraham that the covenant blessings would be realized. The extent to which those blessings would be enjoyed, however, depended upon the obedience of the people of Israel. To put it simply, in the Abrahamic, God promised Abraham a land, nation, and kingship, and in the Mosaic God conditioned the enjoyment of those promises. The Mosaic covenant controlled tenure in the land, the boundaries of the nation, and the regulation of the kingship. These conditions were strong enough that although God would inevitably realize the promises, they could be lost through disobedience. That the Mosaic Covenant conditions the Abrahamic is evident not only by virtue of the fact that its obedience is directly tied to the enjoyment of the Abrahamic promises, but also by virtue of the fact that it was made specifically with the Abrahamic people. Since tenure in the land was what was in view in the Mosaic law, offenses against that covenant could be addressed within that covenant and sacrificial system. But concerning true spiritual realities, concerning offenses committed against a Holy God, the sacrifices could do nothing but point ahead to that one true sacrifice, Jesus Christ.

The Mosaic Covenant lacked a federal head until the kingship was established. The Abrahamic people as a whole were judged on different levels, sometimes the individual, sometimes the family, sometimes the tribe, sometimes the nation. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes, and there was no king in Israel.

The Davidic Covenant brings all of the Abrahamic promises to consummation and focuses the Mosaic Covenant into one person. It was under the line of David, specifically Solomon, that at last the nation of Israel reached the fulfillment of being the Abrahamic people ruling all of the Abrahamic land, under Abrahamic, specifically Judean, kings. The biblical authors are careful to record when these promises are fulfilled (Josh. 21:43- 45 and I Kings 4:20). Under David and his line, the national people of Abraham enjoyed the blessings and benefits of the promised-land to the extent to which the Davidic king obeyed the Mosaic law. This is the concern of the records of the kings. They did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, or they did what was evil. Israel was blessed or cursed accordingly.

- Micah and Samuel Renihan

In suggesting that the Abrahamic Covenant can part with the Mosaic Covenant, and the Davidic Covenant can part with those two, is utterly impossible. They complement each other, and depend upon each other, and are built exclusively for each other in this divine relationship with Israel. If the Mosaic Covenant is obsolete, then so is the covenant and promises of Abraham, so is the kingship of David. These typologically pointed forward to the True Israel, the True Kingship, and a True Land found in the eternal promises of the New Covenant. Christ does come as the Messiah, but not on the rule of David in the theocratic Israel, but upon the throne of the true Israel of God (the Church). He is King of the Jews, indeed, but "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly...but a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart" (Romans 3:28, 29).

If Christ is to be literally the next in line of the throne of David, over the nation of Israel, over the land of Canaan, then the Old Covenant is still enacted and in place. He is either ruling the Kingdom of God under the New Covenant, or he is to rule the temporal kingdom of Israel under the Old Covenant, with the Mosaic law and sacrifical system. This runs into many problems. He cannot fulfill the literal reading of the Davidic covenant, without the requirement to fulfill the Mosaic law. They are interconnected.

I hope this helps :)
 
Upvote 0

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
65
usa
✟221,465.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I agree that the New Covenant does not replace, but instead fulfill, the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants, making them obsolete and unnecessary.

If we understand what a covenant is, it typically involves at least two parties regarding a promise that is conditioned upon some sort of terms. (Also, divine covenants involve a public representative for a certain group or body of people before God, called a federal head). Even though we don't directly read that the Abrahamic, or Davidic, Covenant was conditioned upon some sort of terms for the fulfillment of their promises at their commencement, yet it was in fact conditioned by the establishment of the Mosaic Covenant. These three covenants are not mutually exclusive to one another, they actual structure what we call the Old Covenant, or as the inspired writer of Hebrews calls it, the first covenant. The Old Covenant is the covenant relationship between God and Israel, and each of these covenants builds on that relationship. You cannot have the Abrahamic without the Mosaic, and you cannot have the Mosaic without the Davidic, and here I'll explain.

The Old Covenant, essentially by nature, is the basis for the existence of theocratic Israel. It was defined by the Abrahamic Covenant, conditioned by the Mosaic Covenant, and focused in the Davidic Covenant. Let's discuss each one, (the following is entirely taken from here, I give full credit to that work).

The Abrahamic Covenant, called the Covenant of Circumcision by Stephen in Acts 7:8, promised Abraham three things primarily. It promised him a land, a people, and a kingship. In other words, Abraham’s physical descendants would inherit the land and grow into an innumerable people ruled by their own kings. This was called the Covenant of Circumcision because circumcision was the sign of these blessings and separated Abraham’s offspring from the rest of the world as the heirs of these promises (This is not to say that circumcision had no further significance, but that the national promises were its primary referent).

Abraham was the federal head of this covenant because the promises were made to him and to his physical seed. All those who were of Abraham, or in Abraham we might say, were heirs of the national promises. This defined the membership of the covenant.

The Mosaic Covenant was added and attached to the Abrahamic Covenant in such a way that it conditioned the enjoyment of the Abrahamic blessings. God immutably promised Abraham that the covenant blessings would be realized. The extent to which those blessings would be enjoyed, however, depended upon the obedience of the people of Israel. To put it simply, in the Abrahamic, God promised Abraham a land, nation, and kingship, and in the Mosaic God conditioned the enjoyment of those promises. The Mosaic covenant controlled tenure in the land, the boundaries of the nation, and the regulation of the kingship. These conditions were strong enough that although God would inevitably realize the promises, they could be lost through disobedience. That the Mosaic Covenant conditions the Abrahamic is evident not only by virtue of the fact that its obedience is directly tied to the enjoyment of the Abrahamic promises, but also by virtue of the fact that it was made specifically with the Abrahamic people. Since tenure in the land was what was in view in the Mosaic law, offenses against that covenant could be addressed within that covenant and sacrificial system. But concerning true spiritual realities, concerning offenses committed against a Holy God, the sacrifices could do nothing but point ahead to that one true sacrifice, Jesus Christ.

The Mosaic Covenant lacked a federal head until the kingship was established. The Abrahamic people as a whole were judged on different levels, sometimes the individual, sometimes the family, sometimes the tribe, sometimes the nation. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes, and there was no king in Israel.

The Davidic Covenant brings all of the Abrahamic promises to consummation and focuses the Mosaic Covenant into one person. It was under the line of David, specifically Solomon, that at last the nation of Israel reached the fulfillment of being the Abrahamic people ruling all of the Abrahamic land, under Abrahamic, specifically Judean, kings. The biblical authors are careful to record when these promises are fulfilled (Josh. 21:43- 45 and I Kings 4:20). Under David and his line, the national people of Abraham enjoyed the blessings and benefits of the promised-land to the extent to which the Davidic king obeyed the Mosaic law. This is the concern of the records of the kings. They did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, or they did what was evil. Israel was blessed or cursed accordingly.

- Micah and Samuel Renihan

In suggesting that the Abrahamic Covenant can part with the Mosaic Covenant, and the Davidic Covenant can part with those two, is utterly impossible. They complement each other, and depend upon each other, and are built exclusively for each other in this divine relationship with Israel. If the Mosaic Covenant is obsolete, then so is the covenant and promises of Abraham, so is the kingship of David. These typologically pointed forward to the True Israel, the True Kingship, and a True Land found in the eternal promises of the New Covenant. Christ does come as the Messiah, but not on the rule of David in the theocratic Israel, but upon the throne of the true Israel of God (the Church). He is King of the Jews, indeed, but "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly...but a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart" (Romans 3:28, 29).

If Christ is to be literally the next in line of the throne of David, over the nation of Israel, over the land of Canaan, then the Old Covenant is still enacted and in place. He is either ruling the Kingdom of God under the New Covenant, or he is to rule the temporal kingdom of Israel under the Old Covenant, with the Mosaic law and sacrifical system. This runs into many problems. He cannot fulfill the literal reading of the Davidic covenant, without the requirement to fulfill the Mosaic law. They are interconnected.

I hope this helps :)
you conclusion is based on passing the theory that all three covenants have been combined into one. This is a necessary precondition to reach your conclusion. I dispute that the 3 covenants are now one which in total is the old covenant. In Jer 31 when God announce that the new covenant will be brought in he says exactly which covenant He is replacing. He is replacing the one He made with them when He took them out of Egypt. You have attached the promise to Abraham and the promise to David to the wrong linking train. If you attach them to the 1st plot line of prophecy which is in the garden at the fall we see the key destiny. The seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent and there will be enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman. The genealogy goes right to Abraham where several specific promises are made. Abraham will be a great nations and the land of Canaan is given as an everlasting possession. Second the seed of Abraham all the world will be blessed. Also Abraham was then to be father of many nations.
This line from Abraham follows to David and all the promises tied to the covenant with the land and this seed, Jesus sitting on the throne of David are still in play. The seed of the woman has not crushed the head of the serpent. Dan 7 Rev 20 and 2 thes 2 show this to happen at the 2nd coming. This is when the LORD is king over all the earth. All the plot lines are tied together at this point. The fact we are under the new covenant I agree with you and teach no other way to be saved for Jew or Gentile.
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,225
4,212
Wyoming
✟123,651.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Brian,

Often Scripture denominates the Old Covenant in the name of the Mosaic Covenant, but all three covenants are involved. You cannot, I repeat, cannot remove the Mosaic law from the Abrahamic Covenant, they are mutually tied. Abraham was promised three things primarily, and they were conditioned upon the obedience of the people (until there was a king). He was promised spiritual blessings (all the nations shall be blessed in your seed), but that referred to Christ and the New Covenant he would establish in his blood. David focuses the promises and conditions on a representative, by whose obedience to those conditions, the promises were affected. This was the point of the exile, not only was it on account of the nation's sins, but the kings who led them into sin and sinned themselves.
 
Upvote 0

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
65
usa
✟221,465.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Brian,

Often Scripture denominates the Old Covenant in the name of the Mosaic Covenant, but all three covenants are involved. You cannot, I repeat, cannot remove the Mosaic law from the Abrahamic Covenant, they are mutually tied. Abraham was promised three things primarily, and they were conditioned upon the obedience of the people (until there was a king). He was promised spiritual blessings (all the nations shall be blessed in your seed), but that referred to Christ and the New Covenant he would establish in his blood. David focuses the promises and conditions on a representative, by whose obedience to those conditions, the promises were affected. This was the point of the exile, not only was it on account of the nation's sins, but the kings who led them into sin and sinned themselves.
I can tell my child this summer I am taking you to California in August for two weeks. If my word is good then that child can expect to be in California in August. I can then say if you make honor roll I will take you to Disneyland when we are in California. Now we see two ideas one unconditional and the other conditional. This is how the promise with the land works God gave it to them forever. The conditional promise is that they will be blessed and happy if they walk in Gods ways and they will be cursed to expulsion if they go after the things God hates. God has enforce the conditional aspect twice by driving them out but has also performed the former by bringing them back twice. In Amos 9 the promise is clear that a time will come when Israel will no longer be pulled up from the land god had given them. This promise in the context cannot be the church and is also not teh new Jerusalem.

1 “On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle[fn] of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom,[fn]
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.
13 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
“When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

This chimes in with the LORD coming in Zech 14 and being proclaimed that day as king over all the earth. This is when jerusalem is called the Throne of the LORD

14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 15 And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

If you take Luke one and look at what John said about Jesus you can see it is accomplished at the 2nd coming. Note the oath to Abraham is spoken of as a future event at a time when they are delivered from their enemies and from that time on worship and serve the LORD without fear and in holiness all the days of their lives.

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

This is the deliverance seen coming in ZEch 14 and the new spirit put in them Eze 36 promises. I strongly disagree with you and note that current events are all lining up in line with the future hypothesis and to dismiss that as a real possibility seems strange.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,225
4,212
Wyoming
✟123,651.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
In Amos 9 the promise is clear that a time will come when Israel will no longer be pulled up from the land God had given them. This promise in the context cannot be the church and is also not the new Jerusalem.

The quotations, from both books, I believe refer to the New Jerusalem and Church. It is impossible to take them literally in the context of their respective covenants, since these are tied to each other. Passages similar to these, I am convinced, must be taken topologically when it is called for, this is how the apostles often quoted Scripture in places that discussed Old Testament prophecy. Examples of this can be found in Rom. 9:25-26, 29, 14:11; 1 Cor. 15:55; 2 Cor. 6:16-18; Gal. 3:10, 13, 4:27, etc, etc. Examine their reference origin, are the apostles ripping them out of context? It would appear so if we are to take everything they quoted to a exclusively literal extent. The same goes for the gospel accounts, examples found in places like Matt. 2:18 (that refers to the Babylonian Exile in Jeremiah 31:15).

Edit: I had to fix a reference.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟202,059.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I may have a somewhat different view on the Covenants of G_d that run through the Bible than most.

As Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The New Covenant does not replace the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. I believe they are a foundation upon which the New Covenant is built and the New Covenant in turn establishes and reaffirms the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. It's through the New Covenant that Jesus will give His people Israel a new heart and a new spirit so they can receive Him as their Messiah upon His return thus fulling the unconditional promises made in the Abrahamic or the Davidic Covenants. Also fulfilling Romans Chapter 11.
 
Upvote 0