A positive atheist position.

[Jwal]

I trust I've found the appropriate location for this thread. I have been reluctant to raise this position in response to comments on other threads because I want to avoid the anti- part of a- in a-theism.

I've never been a believer in god, never will be. The never been is in part my upbringing. The never will be is me. I questioned enough other things growing up to be as certain of this as it is reasonable to be certain about something that didn't happen.

The following statement from Bertrand Russell expresses this well, better - in fact - than I had managed on my own. I've trimmed some of the anti-christian elements from the quote, wanting a more positive one than suited it's original context.

We want to stand upon our own feet and ... see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. ... A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create.

This position also best describes my main criticisms of religion, by identifying their presence in a world-view where you take personal pride and responsibility, as opposed to an attack on belief in god.

 

[sinner/SAVED]

My granny always said, "Never say never."

 

[Madcoil]

She never did!

 

[FaithWeaver]

My granny always said, "Never say never."

 

[merryheart]

My momma usually said don't say never, or always

I find it a good rule for me

 

[Clem is Me]

That is, as are most of Russel's quotes, excellent. He expresses what a secularist desires. Unfortunately he does not express what humans desire.

 

[Jwal]

That is, as are most of Russel's quotes, excellent. He expresses what a secularist desires. Unfortunately he does not express what humans desire.

You imply a secularist is not human. Besides this statement can be expressed in either sense depending on your point of view.

 

[Jwal]

My granny always said, "Never say never."

.

Shame to lose the use of a word. I chose it here carefully .

 

[Clem is Me]

You imply a secularist is not human. Besides this statement can be expressed in either sense depending on your point of view.

Being a secularist I feel the conflict all the time between the brave hope of change and comfort and safety of stasis. That's what I meant.

 

[Jwal]

Being a secularist I feel the conflict all the time between the brave hope of change and comfort and safety of stasis. That's what I meant.

I would call it the illusion of stasis.

 

[Clem is Me]

So is the brave hope. Change is all that there is, really. Everything else is illusion.

 

[mepalmer3]

We want to stand upon our own feet and ... see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. ... A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create.

This position also best describes my main criticisms of religion, by identifying their presence in a world-view where you take personal pride and responsibility, as opposed to an attack on belief in god.

I guess I miss what that quote has to do with any religion. Are you saying that quote or position best describes one of your main criticisms of religion?

Also, as some have pointed out rather well, if atheism is true, it's far more probable that people do not have any sort of "free will", and everything they do is determined by something other than themselves. So Russell's ideas of being free or "standing on his own feet" is not consistent with the atheistic view of their being no free will. It's like saying, "I want us to be free, to have hope, to be intelligent, to choose to make better decisions down the line. However, I categorically deny that we have the ability to make different choices, that we could ourselves choose to be any more or less intelligent." Or more simply: "We should be courageous, however, we have no control over being courageous." It's a self-defeating claim when you say we have no free will and yet we ought to do this or that.

 

[Dennis Moore]

My granny always said, "Never say never."

Does this mean that that's always a possibility that you could lose your faith? Or does "never say never" apply only to atheists who say "I will never believe"?

 

[Dennis Moore]

Also, as some have pointed out rather well, if atheism is true, it's far more probable that people do not have any sort of "free will", and everything they do is determined by something other than themselves.

Typical theist mischaracterization of the nontheist position. I hesitate to use the term "strawman," but you're treading close.

So Russell's ideas of being free or "standing on his own feet" is not consistent with the atheistic view of their being no free will.

False premise ["atheists believe that there is no free will"] leading to false conclusion ["Russell's views are inconsistent"].

It's like saying, "I want us to be free, to have hope, to be intelligent, to choose to make better decisions down the line. However, I categorically deny that we have the ability to make different choices, that we could ourselves choose to be any more or less intelligent." Or more simply: "We should be courageous, however, we have no control over being courageous."

Okay,you made it there:

It's a self-defeating claim when you say we have no free will and yet we ought to do this or that.

Prove where either he or Russell has said "we have no free will" or in any way supported extreme biological determinism.

 

[Lucretius]

On the contrary, free-will seems impossible WITH a God, and possible without. God makes you, he makes the choices you will make when he makes you. He knows you will make the choices because he made them in you. You cannot choose to take the path he has chosen you because he makes all. If you were not to take the choice he made in you that would be not only disobeying God, but creating a decision that was outside of God's knowledge, which would be something outside of everything, which is impossible. However, without a God, I know that I was a product of evolution (there was no intelligent design) and that I can affect the world around me through my choices, not that there is a puppetmaster controlling my every action.

 

[sinner/SAVED]

Does this mean that that's always a possibility that you could lose your faith? Or does "never say never" apply only to atheists who say "I will never believe"?

I have lost my faith at one time in my life. (Assuming that what I called faith at that time was true faith.) So, to answer your question, I can't say "never".

 

[jayem]

Russell was right on target when he said that religion is fundamentally based on fear. Fear of death, fear of the unknown, or fear of the future. Such fears are a universal part of the human psyche, and religious faith is a prime way to deal with them. No doubt, religious belief is a great source of strength and comfort for many. But it has a dark side. Religious faith fosters group identity. From there it's a short step towards suspicion, and, all too often, hostility towards those who do not share the same faith. To me, that is the greatest problem with religion--it's tendency to promote tribalism. But getting back to Russell, his point is that it is preferable to confront our fears with reason and a scientific understanding of nature, rather than appealing to invisible supernatural entities--no matter how pyschologically comforting that may be.

 

[Dennis Moore]

I have lost my faith at one time in my life. (Assuming that what I called faith at that time was true faith.) So, to answer your question, I can't say "never".

Just checking.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I trust I've found the appropriate location for this thread. I have been reluctant to raise this position in response to comments on other threads because I want to avoid the anti- part of a- in a-theism.

I've never been a believer in god, never will be. The never been is in part my upbringing. The never will be is me. I questioned enough other things growing up to be as certain of this as it is reasonable to be certain about something that didn't happen.

The following statement from Bertrand Russell expresses this well, better - in fact - than I had managed on my own. I've trimmed some of the anti-christian elements from the quote, wanting a more positive one than suited it's original context.This position also best describes my main criticisms of religion, by identifying their presence in a world-view where you take personal pride and responsibility, as opposed to an attack on belief in god.

I fail to see the 'positive' in this position/statement.
OK, you have your own writings/teachings that you adhere to, such as your Bertrand Russell quote.
OK, you do not believe in what the Jew or Christian call God.
OK, you have no value in learning from history or societies past attempts - as reflected in the quote.

I suppose you will have to walk an onlooker through the part where this is 'positive' as described in the thread title. If you 'trimmed' anti-christian elements from the quote, I would hate to see the full context. Because it is basically an ad hominem statement without substance other than pride. And to quote an 'antiquated' saying:
"Pride comes before the fall."

 

[sinner/SAVED]

Pride is the greatest sin.