A positive atheist position.

[Clem is Me]

I fail to see the 'positive' in this position/statement.
OK, you have your own writings/teachings that you adhere to, such as your Bertrand Russell quote.
OK, you do not believe in what the Jew or Christian call God.
OK, you have no value in learning from history or societies past attempts - as reflected in the quote.

I suppose you will have to walk an onlooker through the part where this is 'positive' as described in the thread title. If you 'trimmed' anti-christian elements from the quote, I would hate to see the full context. Because it is basically an ad hominem statement without substance other than pride. And to quote an 'antiquated' saying:
"Pride comes before the fall."

You seem to have confused a lack of desire to live in the past with a lack of desire to learn from the past. You also must have missed the words "kindly" etc.

 

[Jwal]

So is the brave hope. Change is all that there is, really. Everything else is illusion.

Yes, I agree. But to choose one to follow that requires your positive involvement is important to me.

I guess I miss what that quote has to do with any religion. Are you saying that quote or position best describes one of your main criticisms of religion?

By and large I am quite happy to bash belief in god. But this is not what I was about. I pulled the christian bashing from the Bertrand Russell quote because his paper was on why he was not a christian and went through logically puncturing reasons for the existence of god, hence it was appropriate in context. I took the conclusion out of context because of the positive points it made.

Above all I wanted to present a positive statement of my position. I do not believe this statement (the quote from Bertrand Russell) is consistent with a belief in religion or god (please correct me if you think I am wrong here).

Also, as some have pointed out rather well, if atheism is true, it's far more probable that people do not have any sort of "free will", and everything they do is determined by something other than themselves. So Russell's ideas of being free or "standing on his own feet" is not consistent with the atheistic view of their being no free will. It's like saying, "I want us to be free, to have hope, to be intelligent, to choose to make better decisions down the line. However, I categorically deny that we have the ability to make different choices, that we could ourselves choose to be any more or less intelligent." Or more simply: "We should be courageous, however, we have no control over being courageous." It's a self-defeating claim when you say we have no free will and yet we ought to do this or that.

This is non-sensical. You've trying to imply atheism implies determinism and that determinism implies a lack of free will. In spite of the category errors made in doing so the positions are wrong. Some key failings include 1) Random events generate free will (laughable) 2) Determinism equates with neither predictability nor finite options, think about chaos and also the transcendental pi.

I fail to see the 'positive' in this position/statement.

I am surprised. What is stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the world but positive.

OK, you have your own writings/teachings that you adhere to, such as your Bertrand Russell quote.
OK, you do not believe in what the Jew or Christian call God.
OK, you have no value in learning from history or societies past attempts - as reflected in the quote.

No, this was my position first, I found the excellent expression of it second. Not a teaching but a clear expression I choose to agree with.
Yes, and as a strong atheist I actively believe in Gods non-existence.
No, to dogmatically follow is the error. To look and learn and choose your own path as I do is quite different.

I suppose you will have to walk an onlooker through the part where this is 'positive' as described in the thread title. If you 'trimmed' anti-christian elements from the quote, I would hate to see the full context. Because it is basically an ad hominem statement without substance other than pride. And to quote an 'antiquated' saying:
"Pride comes before the fall."

Look here and go to the end for a source of the quote. I hadn't found this site until just now, I'd encountered it through a philosophy link as opposed to the positive atheism one given.

I made a deliberate choice to talk about pride positively. I expected the Pride comes before a fall quote and consider that this is likely to be a badly out of context quote. I consider taking pride in your efforts, your contributions and your successes to be generally positive.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

You seem to have confused a lack of desire to live in the past with a lack of desire to learn from the past. You also must have missed the words "kindly" etc.

And you have confused the assertion of a false premise of 'desire to live in the past' as being a fact.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Yes, I agree. But to choose one to follow that requires your positive involvement is important to me.

By and large I am quite happy to bash belief in god. But this is not what I was about. I pulled the christian bashing from the Bertrand Russell quote because his paper was on why he was not a christian and went through logically puncturing reasons for the existence of god, hence it was appropriate in context. I took the conclusion out of context because of the positive points it made.

Above all I wanted to present a positive statement of my position. I do not believe this statement (the quote from Bertrand Russell) is consistent with a belief in religion or god (please correct me if you think I am wrong here).

This is non-sensical. You've trying to imply atheism implies determinism and that determinism implies a lack of free will. In spite of the category errors made in doing so the positions are wrong. Some key failings include 1) Random events generate free will (laughable) 2) Determinism equates with neither predictability nor finite options, think about chaos and also the transcendental pi.

I am surprised. What is stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the world but positive.

You are free to view it however you wish.

No, this was my position first, I found the excellent expression of it second. Not a teaching but a clear expression I choose to agree with.

Understood. But having a 'position', one naturally gathers to like teaching or surrounds themself with like-minded support.

Yes, and as a strong atheist I actively believe in Gods non-existence.
No, to dogmatically follow is the error. To look and learn and choose your own path as I do is quite different.

Look here and go to the end for a source of the quote. I hadn't found this site until just now, I'd encountered it through a philosophy link as opposed to the positive atheism one given.

I made a deliberate choice to talk about pride positively. I expected the Pride comes before a fall quote and consider that this is likely to be a badly out of context quote. I consider taking pride in your efforts, your contributions and your successes to be generally positive.

And in contrast, I do not boast of my own actions/deeds/accomplishments.
If you wish to do so, then by all means reap whatever you can from such activity - I find it in accordance with the rest of the view/belief.

To expect all to agree with your position of 'positive' aspect without cause is a bit presumptuous. IMHO

 

[Jwal]

You are free to view it however you wish.

I'm not asking your permission.

Understood. But having a 'position', one naturally gathers to like teaching or surrounds themself with like-minded support.

I was not so much making a statement as refuting yours, so this is not really relevant.

And in contrast, I do not boast of my own actions/deeds/accomplishments. If you wish to do so, then by all means reap whatever you can from such activity - I find it in accordance with the rest of the view/belief.

To expect all to agree with your position of 'positive' aspect without cause is a bit presumptuous. IMHO

I'm sorry but your reply seems to be part of another conversation. It seems to have no connection to the quote of mine you placed it with.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I'm not asking your permission.

I didn't say that you had to.

I was not so much making a statement as refuting yours, so this is not really relevant.
I'm sorry but your reply seems to be part of another conversation. It seems to have no connection to the quote of mine you placed it with.

Then I suggest you re-read the quote and concentrate on your last paragraph.

My final statement spoke to the thread in general. I see nothing stated that I can agree as 'positive' or praiseworthy in the assertions made supporting your initial post or throughout the thread. One could continue on that coarse or they could try alternative means to plea the case.

 

[Clem is Me]

And you have confused the assertion of a false premise of 'desire to live in the past' as being a fact.

Looked more like an opinion to me.

 

[Alencon]

This position also best describes my main criticisms of religion, by identifying their presence in a world-view where you take personal pride and responsibility, as opposed to an attack on belief in god.

Allow me to suggest that there is a difference between religion and God. Before you say "never," you really need to consider that point.

 

[Ledifni]

I trust I've found the appropriate location for this thread. I have been reluctant to raise this position in response to comments on other threads because I want to avoid the anti- part of a- in a-theism.

I've never been a believer in god, never will be. The never been is in part my upbringing. The never will be is me. I questioned enough other things growing up to be as certain of this as it is reasonable to be certain about something that didn't happen.

The following statement from Bertrand Russell expresses this well, better - in fact - than I had managed on my own. I've trimmed some of the anti-christian elements from the quote, wanting a more positive one than suited it's original context.This position also best describes my main criticisms of religion, by identifying their presence in a world-view where you take personal pride and responsibility, as opposed to an attack on belief in god.

Excellent post.