A Pondering of the Peculiar (3)

PsychoSarah · Feb 27, 2014

genez said:
Many are! You would have to be stupid not to see it.

It was not equated by default. But, by the given context.

So!? The fact remains.. I did not call you stupid. I was speaking only in reference to young earth creationists, not all Christians.

That should suffice for now while that sinks into that God given brain of yours.

1 Corinthians 4:7

For who makes you different from anyone else?
What do you have that you did not receive? And
if you did receive it, why do you boast as though
you did not?

.

Christian army friendly fire, wow. I get attacking people that aren't of your religion (I don't condone it, but I understand why it happens) but for the life of me I cannot understand insulting people who share your religion for perceiving it in a slightly different way. It just doesn't make sense to me, I don't see agnostics or atheists do that (although I have seen antitheists be critical of atheists that are tolerant of religion, but then again they aren't quite the same thing).

BrotherRickG · Feb 27, 2014

HitchSlap said:
No.

"In matters of religion it is very easy to deceive a man, and very hard to undeceive him." -Pierre Bayle

I agree with this statement, you (and many others) have been deceived into believing a fake religion "evolutional science, aka; humanism" and now you are stuck.

True scientist would not distance themselves from all available information unless they are agenda driven. Do you hate Jesus so much that you are willing to ignore any evidences that are in the Bible or that may lean towards Creation?

You probable do not know this one, but I will ask again; how much energy was dispersed in your Big Bang theory? How fast do you think the explosion was? Was it faster than a twinkling in the eye?

PsychoSarah · Feb 27, 2014

BrotherRickG said:
"In matters of religion it is very easy to deceive a man, and very hard to undeceive him." -Pierre Bayle

I agree with this statement, you (and many others) have been deceived into believing a fake religion "evolutional science, aka; humanism" and now you are stuck.

True scientist would not distance themselves from all available information unless they are agenda driven. Do you hate Jesus so much that you are willing to ignore any evidences that are in the Bible or that may lean towards Creation?

You probable do not know this one, but I will ask again; how much energy was dispersed in your Big Bang theory? How fast do you think the explosion was? Was it faster than a twinkling in the eye?

Look, no one hates Jesus, most atheists have no problem with religion and have no desire to disprove it. I can honestly say I hope I am wrong and that there is a god, but just because I want it to be true doesn't mean I believe it to be true.

I don't ignore the evidence, but so far there just isn't much evidence to see. The bible was written by human hands, not godly ones, and there just isn't anything about any religious text that suggests that any divine influence is there, no matter what the religion.

How fast the Big Bang expansion was is not particularly consistent, and the best people have for the speeds is an educated guesstimate. However, not knowing something doesn't mean that god is the answer; just like not knowing how lightening forms doesn't mean Zeus is the cause.

HitchSlap · Feb 27, 2014

BrotherRickG said:
"In matters of religion it is very easy to deceive a man, and very hard to undeceive him." -Pierre Bayle

I agree with this statement, you (and many others) have been deceived into believing a fake religion "evolutional science, aka; humanism" and now you are stuck.

True scientist would not distance themselves from all available information unless they are agenda driven. Do you hate Jesus so much that you are willing to ignore any evidences that are in the Bible or that may lean towards Creation?

You probable do not know this one, but I will ask again; how much energy was dispersed in your Big Bang theory? How fast do you think the explosion was? Was it faster than a twinkling in the eye?

I accept you believe this. You would be wrong, however.

As a general rule, you may want to actually find out what someone believes and why they believe it before you go off half-cocked and say something silly.

A wise atheist once said, it's "better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt."

As for your science question, I don't have a "Big Bang Theory." Perhaps you could elaborate. I already posted a link so you can familiarize yourself with current cosmology. If that wasn't enough for you, then I can recommend several books for you. Otherwise, if you have a point make it already.

PsychoSarah · Feb 27, 2014

Why do all these people think that atheists hate god or hate Jesus?

HitchSlap · Feb 27, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
Why do all these people think that atheists hate god or hate Jesus?

Because believers are taught what to think, not how to think. This is inherent with all religions. They think they already have the answers, so it's just a matter of framing the questions.

I no more hate god or Jesus anymore than I "hate" Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, Godzilla, Thor, Allah, the Easter bunny or gnomes. In fact, there are a few select sayings attributed to Jesus that I find relevant for my life.

PsychoSarah · Feb 27, 2014

HitchSlap said:
Because believers are taught what to think, not how to think. This is inherent with all religions. They think they already have the answers, so it's just a matter of framing the questions.

That is a bit of a generalization, but what I mean is what is the reasoning behind that? Even if what you say is true, there had to be someone at some point that thought that was a justifiable statement.

To be honest though, I find that the bible writing style leaves much to be desired, because I saw it, and I said that it was not good. So repetitive with some of the strangest things in great detail while important stuff is left obscure. If the bible was a paper, I would give it a C-

bhsmte · Feb 27, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
Why do all these people think that atheists hate god or hate Jesus?

Because it makes them feel better about themselves.

HitchSlap · Feb 27, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
That is a bit of a generalization, but what I mean is what is the reasoning behind that? Even if what you say is true, there had to be someone at some point that thought that was a justifiable statement.

To be honest though, I find that the bible writing style leaves much to be desired, because I saw it, and I said that it was not good. So repetitive with some of the strangest things in great detail while important stuff is left obscure. If the bible was a paper, I would give it a C-

A generalization? Really? Watch any online sermon, and you will understand what I mean when I say believers are taught what to think, not how. Critical analysis is anathema to dogma. In fact, it's why most atheists know more about the bible than believers do. It's because they were tired of being "preached" at and decided to apply the same logic and reason to their religious beliefs that they apply to everything else in their life, only to find religions and the bible don't comport well with reality.

bhsmte · Feb 27, 2014

HitchSlap said:
A generalization? Really? Watch any online sermon, and you will understand what I mean when I say believers are taught what to think, not how. Critical analysis is anathema to dogma. In fact, it's why most atheists know more about the bible than believers do. It's because they were tired of being "preached" at and decided to apply the same logic and reason to their religious beliefs that they apply to everything else in their life, only to find religions and the bible don't comport well with reality.

In general, I would agree with this position. Theists start with assumptions (without evidence) and scramble to find ways to justify the belief to avoid or to ward off cognitive dissonance. They need to shoe horn rationalization into the equation and it can be entertaining to watch in action.

The Christians I would carve out of this description would be the one's who recognize there is no objective evidence for their belief, but they choose to believe on faith and choose not to tell others they are missing something if they don't have the same faith. These types of Christians are willing to admit; I could be wrong, but my faith makes me a better person and I am holding onto to it. Unfortuanately, many Christians will tell you there is zero chance they could be wrong, which automatically eliminates them from accepting objective information and these same types are all to willing to tell non-believers they hate God, they haven't tried to connect with him, etc. etc..

If it wasn't so childish, it would be amusing more often then it is.

Davian · Feb 27, 2014

BrotherRickG said:
Is sarcasm that necessary to your point?

Seriously, I suspected the sarcasm was on your part. Such is the problem with Poe's law.

BrotherRickG said:
You must think you are funny, but I think not.

Stick around. I am here all week.

BrotherRickG said:
Just because we have been allowed to have a brain doesn't means life must be very old.

On what should that determination be made? Religious dogma? How are we to use this brain that we have been "allowed" to have?

BrotherRickG said:
What did the earth look like 6,000 years ago?

From wiki:

4th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Events

Mesopotamia is in the Uruk period, with emerging Sumerian hegemony and development of "proto-cuneiform" writing; base-60 mathematics, astronomy and astrology, civil law, complex hydrology, the sailboat, potter's wheel and wheel; the Chalcolithic proceeds into the Early Bronze Age.
c. 4000 BCFirst neolithic settlers in the island of Thera (Santorini), Greece, migrating probably from Minoan Crete.
c. 4000 BCBeaker from Susa (modern Shush, Iran) is made. It is now at Musée du Louvre, Paris.
c. 4000 BC2000 BCPeople and animals, a detail of rock-shelter painting in Cogul, Lleida, Spain, are painted. It is now at Museo Arqueológico, Barcelona.
c. 3900 BC5.9 kiloyear event, one of the most intense aridification events during the Holocene. It ended the Neolithic Subpluvial and likely initiated the most recent desiccation of the Sahara desert, triggering migration to river valleys, such as from central North Africa to the Nile valley.
Babylonian influence predominant in Mediterranean regions of Asia (to 2000 BC)
In Colombia, circa 3600 BC, first rupestrian art Chiribiquete (Caquetá).
3600 BCConstruction of the Ġgantija megalithic temple complex on the Island of Gozo, Malta: the world's oldest extant unburied free-standing structures, and the world's oldest religious structures. (See Göbekli Tepe for older, buried religious structures.)
36003200 BCConstruction of the first temple within the Mnajdra solar temple complex on Malta, containing "furniture" such as stone benches and tables, that set it apart from other European megalith constructions.
36003000 BCConstruction of the Ta' Ħaġrat and Kordin III temples on Malta.
3500 Metalcasting began in the Mohenjodaro area.
c. 3500 BCFigures of a man and a woman, from Cernavodă, Romania, are made. They are now at National Historical Museum, Bucharest.
35003400 BCJar with boat designs, from Hierakonpolis (today in the Brooklyn Museum) is created. Predynastic Egypt.
35002340 BCFirst cities developed in Southern Mesopotamia. Inhabitants migrated from north.
The cuneiform script proper emerges from pictographic proto-writing in the later 4th millennium. Mesopotamia's "proto-literate" period spans the 35th to 32nd centuries. The first documents unequivocally written in the Sumerian language date to the 31st century, found at Jemdet Nasr.
33002900 BCConstruction of the Newgrange solar observatory/passage tomb in Ireland.
3300Bronze Age starts in Indus Valley (Harappa)
c. 3300 BCÖtzi the Iceman dies near the present-day border between Austria and Italy, only to be discovered in 1991 buried in a glacier of the Ötztal Alps. His cause of death is believed to be homicide.
32503000 BCConstruction of three megalithic temples at Tarxien, Malta.
32002500 BCConstruction of the Ħaġar Qim megalithic temple complex on Malta, featuring both solar and lunar alignments.
c. 3150 BCPredynastic period ended in Ancient Egypt. Early Dynastic (Archaic) period started (according to French Egyptologist Nicolas Grimal). The period includes 1st and 2nd Dynasties.
c. 3150 BC a lesser Tollmann's hypothetical bolide event may have occurred.
August 11, 3114 BCstart date of the Mayan calendar.
c. 3100 BCAccording to the legend, Menes unifies Upper and Lower Egypt, and a new capital is erected at Memphis.
c. 3100 BCNarmer Palette
c. 31002600 BCNeolithic settlement at Skara Brae in the Orkney Islands, Scotland, is inhabited.
3051 BC The oldest currently (2013) living non-clonal organism germinated in the Grove of the Ancients.
First to Fourth dynasty of Kish in Mesopotamia.
Discovery of silver.
The beginnings of Iberian civilizations, arrival to the peninsula dating as far back as 4000 BC.
c. 3000 BCFirst pottery in Colombia at Puerto Hormiga (Magdalena), considered one of the first attempts of pottery of the New World. First settlement at Puerto Badel (Bolívar).
Sumerian temple of Janna at Eridu erected.
Temple at Al-Ubaid and tome of Mes-Kalam-Dug built near Ur, Chaldea.

Cultures

Mesopotamia

Uruk period (protohistoric Sumer) 4100 BC3100 BC
Proto-Elamite from 3200 BC
Urkesh (northern Syria) founded during the fourth millennium BC possibly by the Hurrians
Neolithic Europe and Western Eurasia
Crete: Rise of Minoan civilization.
The Yamna culture ("Kurgan culture"), succeeding the Sredny Stog culture is the locus of the Proto-Indo-Europeans according to the Kurgan hypothesis
The Pit Grave ("Kurgan culture"), succeeding the Sredny Stog culture is the locus of the Proto-Indo-Europeans according to the Paleolithic Continuity Theory
The Maykop culture of the Caucasus, contemporary to the Kurgan culture, is a candidate for the origin of bronze production and thus the Bronze Age.
Vinca culture
Afanasevo 3500 BC2500 BC, Siberia, Mongolia, Xinjiang, Kazakhstan - late copper and early Bronze Age.
Yamna/Kurgan 3500 BC-2300 BC, Pontic-Caspian (east of Black Sea).
Kura-Araxes 3400 BC2000 BC - earliest evidence found on the Ararat plain

Europe

The Trypillian culture has cities with 15,000 citizens, eastern Europe, 5500 BC2750 BC.
The Funnelbeaker culture, Scandinavia, 4000 BC2700 BC, originated in southern parts of Europe and slowly advanced up through today's Uppland.
Indian subcontinent
Indus Valley Civilization
Mehrgarh IIIVI

Africa

Naqada culture on the Nile, 4000 BC3000 BC. First hieroglyphs appear thus far around 3500 BC as found on labels in a ruler's tomb at Abydos.

Asia

Neolithic Chinese settlements. They produced silk and pottery (chiefly the Yangshao and the Lungshan cultures), wore hemp clothing, and domesticated pigs and dogs.
Vietnamese Bronze Age culture. The Đồng Đậu Culture, 4000 BC2500 BC, produced many wealthy bronze objects.

c. 4000 BC3000 BCAustronesian peoples reach Formosa (Taiwan) having crossed 150 km from China using advanced maritime technology.

Environmental

A man trapped in an Alpine glacier ("Ötzi the Iceman") is frozen until his discovery in 1991.[3]
Tree rings from Ireland and England show this was their driest period.[3]
Ice core records showing the ratio of two oxygen isotopes retrieved from the ice fields atop Africa's Mount Kilimanjaro, a proxy for atmospheric temperature at the time snow fell.[3]
Major changes in plant pollen uncovered from lakebed cores in South America.[3]
Record lowest levels of methane retrieved from ice cores from Greenland and Antarctica.[3]
End of the Neolithic Subpluvial, start of desertification of Sahara (35th century BC). North Africa shifts from a habitable region to a barren desert.[3]

Inventions, discoveries, introductions

Sumerian Cuneiform Script
c. 4000 BCpotter's wheel in Sumer.[4]
4000 BCSusa is a center of pottery production.
c. 4000 BCHorses are domesticated in Ukraine.
3500 BC2340 BC; Sumer: wheeled carts, potter's wheel, White Temple ziggurat, bronze tools and weapons.
c. 3250 BCpotter's wheel appears in Ancient Near East.
3000 BCTin is in use in Mesopotamia soon after this time.[5]
Beginnings of urbanisation in Mesopotamia in Sumer and Egypt.
First writings in the cities of Uruk and Susa (cuneiform writings). Hieroglyphs in Egypt.
Kurgan culture of what is now Southern Russia and Ukraine; possibly the first domestication of the horse.
Sails used in the Nile.
Construction in England of the Sweet Track, the World's first known engineered roadway.
Drainage and Sewage collection and disposal created in the Indus Valley civilization.
Dams, canals, stone sculptures using inclined plane and lever in Sumer.
Copper was in use, both as tools and weapons.
Bronze was in use, specifically by the Maykop culture.
Mastabas, the predecessors of the Egyptian pyramids.
The earliest phase of the Stonehenge monument (a circular earth bank and ditch) dates to c. 3100 BC.
The Céide Fields in Ireland, arguably the oldest field system in world, are developed.
Sumerian writing, done on clay tablets, shows about 2,000 pictographic signs
White painted pottery in Egypt and southeastern Europe
Harps and flutes played in Egypt
Copper alloys used by Egyptians and Sumerians; smelting of gold and silver known.
Lyres and double clarinets (arghul, mijwiz) played in Egypt
Earliest known numerals in Egypt
Linen is produced in the Middle East

That gives me an idea of how the world looked 6000 years ago.

BrotherRickG said:
But to answer that question one would have to know all the variables in real time.

what other kinds of time are there? pseudo time? lunch time?

BrotherRickG said:
No one does unless you know a real genius besides the Creator.

Which creator? You creator, of course.

BrotherRickG said:
I have a question; What is the speed of dispersement for the creation of the universe (big bang)? How many times faster than the speed of light would you think?

Why don't you share your wisdom, and turn the field of astrophysics on its ear with your knowledge.

Davian · Feb 27, 2014

genez said:
About 25%...

lol. You are all bluff and bluster.

Davian · Feb 27, 2014

BrotherRickG said:
Wow, I missed a lot. I didn't realize how many arrogant "smart" people there are here. Saul Alinsky would be proud of you after all the bantering and put down against people that believe the Bible, especially literally like myself. I see the icons by the names and I see a lot of crosses . I agree that religion is dangerous, but relationship is God.

Demonstrate to me that what you have is anything more than religion, like any other religion.

BrotherRickG said:
Why read a book that is so complete, timeline wise, and not give it the respect it deserves?

Lack of evidential support in the observations of the world around us for the claims made by people purporting to speak for the characters contained in that book.

BrotherRickG said:
God, that created you and all the wonderful things we enjoy, could not create everything in a short time? Really? So, are you saying it is impossible? Don't bring up all the manipulating science that is regurgitated so frequently, everything you will say about old earth will be backed up by guesses a long time ago that are perceived as fact today. Just a simple question; Do you think it is possible?

Not as described in the bible.

BrotherRickG · Feb 27, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
Look, no one hates Jesus, most atheists have no problem with religion and have no desire to disprove it. I can honestly say I hope I am wrong and that there is a god, but just because I want it to be true doesn't mean I believe it to be true.

I don't ignore the evidence, but so far there just isn't much evidence to see. The bible was written by human hands, not godly ones, and there just isn't anything about any religious text that suggests that any divine influence is there, no matter what the religion.

How fast the Big Bang expansion was is not particularly consistent, and the best people have for the speeds is an educated guesstimate. However, not knowing something doesn't mean that god is the answer; just like not knowing how lightening forms doesn't mean Zeus is the cause.

Thank you for not calling me stupid (like some of the others on this forum) and being honest, I really appreciate it.

It sounds like you are more agnostic than atheist, which in my point of view is not a bad place to be. The term atheist is Anti-Theist which in most circles is someone who is against anything Jesus.

I was actually curious on the educated guesstimate of the initial speed of the expansion.

Is this a true statement in your opinion:

It is possible that our universe is infinite and has been filled with matter everywhere since the Big Bang. But there is also nothing stopping the universe expanding faster than the speed of light. Although at any local point within the universe, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, this is not true for the entire universe. There is no limit on how fast space can expand.

HitchSlap · Feb 27, 2014

bhsmte said:
In general, I would agree with this position. Theists start with assumptions (without evidence) and scramble to find ways to justify the belief to avoid or to ward off cognitive dissonance. They need to shoe horn rationalization into the equation and it can be entertaining to watch in action.

The Christians I would carve out of this description would be the one's who recognize there is no objective evidence for their belief, but they choose to believe on faith and choose not to tell others they are missing something if they don't have the same faith. These types of Christians are willing to admit; I could be wrong, but my faith makes me a better person and I am holding onto to it. Unfortuanately, many Christians will tell you there is zero chance they could be wrong, which automatically eliminates them from accepting objective information and these same types are all to willing to tell non-believers they hate God, they haven't tried to connect with him, etc. etc..

If it wasn't so childish, it would be amusing more often then it is.

Well said.

BrotherRickG · Feb 27, 2014

Davian said:
Not as described in the bible.

I didn't say "as described in the Bible" did I. I asked a simple question about it being possible.

Is it even remotely possible that the universe is a lot younger than what is being propagated in the world today? Just possible, that is the question.

HitchSlap · Feb 27, 2014

BrotherRickG said:
Thank you for not calling me stupid (like some of the others on this forum) and being honest, I really appreciate it.

It sounds like you are more agnostic than atheist, which in my point of view is not a bad place to be. The term atheist is Anti-Theist which in most circles is someone who is against anything Jesus.

I was actually curious on the educated guesstimate of the initial speed of the expansion.

Is this a true statement in your opinion:

It is possible that our universe is infinite and has been filled with matter everywhere since the Big Bang. But there is also nothing stopping the universe expanding faster than the speed of light. Although at any local point within the universe, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, this is not true for the entire universe. There is no limit on how fast space can expand.

Agnosticism is a statement of knowledge. Atheism is a statement of belief.
I don't think we can know at this point in time if a god/s exist, therefore, based on the lack of evidence for a god/s, I don't believe it exists.

As for your big bang question, if you're honestly serious about it, I suggest you read a book. I can recommend several to you.

Dizredux · Feb 27, 2014

BrotherRickG said:
The term atheist is Anti-Theist which in most circles is someone who is against anything Jesus.

A small point: The prefix A in this context usually means not. Atheist =not theist, Agnostic=not knowing, apatheist =not caring and so forth.

Many times, if not most, an atheist simply believes there is not enough evidence to support the existence of God so the atheist simply chooses not to believe.

There are some more militant atheists that say there is no God but I do not believe they can support that idea.

Dizredux

PsychoSarah · Feb 27, 2014

BrotherRickG said:
Thank you for not calling me stupid (like some of the others on this forum) and being honest, I really appreciate it.

It sounds like you are more agnostic than atheist, which in my point of view is not a bad place to be. The term atheist is Anti-Theist which in most circles is someone who is against anything Jesus.

I was actually curious on the educated guesstimate of the initial speed of the expansion.

Is this a true statement in your opinion:

It is possible that our universe is infinite and has been filled with matter everywhere since the Big Bang. But there is also nothing stopping the universe expanding faster than the speed of light. Although at any local point within the universe, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, this is not true for the entire universe. There is no limit on how fast space can expand.

Oh, no no no, don't get atheists and antitheists confused, they are very different entities. Atheists don't believe that any god/gods exist. Antitheists take it a step further and view religion, particularly the belief in a god, as counterproductive and even insulting. An antitheist is outright against the worship of deities, something that atheists don't necessarily think (and most don't to the extent of antitheists).

Atheist as a word is actually build from a- meaning without, and theist- which means god/ with gods. The literal meaning of the word from its roots is "without god/gods", which pretty much sums up the lack of belief in gods that atheists have. The literal meaning of theist, of course, is "with gods" because a theist is anyone that believes a god or multiple gods exist. Now, the word antitheist. The part anti- meaning "against" and of course theist again. The word antitheist using the root meanings is literally "against gods" or, more appropriately, "against the belief in gods".

Atheists are often accepting of religion and most don't outright hate it, but antitheists will almost never respect religion at all and view it not only as unnecessary, but often view it as progressive to get rid of it. I am an atheist, but please don't associate me with antitheists, I find it kinda insulting.

HitchSlap · Feb 27, 2014

BrotherRickG said:
I didn't say "as described in the Bible" did I. I asked a simple question about it being possible.

Is it even remotely possible that the universe is a lot younger than what is being propagated in the world today? Just possible, that is the question.

Scientists collect data, makes observations, then draw conclusions based on all available information. There is no evil cabal propagating anything on anyone. You're being childish.

A Pondering of the Peculiar (3)

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