A Poll: Are Most Masons in the U.S. Truly Christian?

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The Masons by definition are a fraternal organization promoting the fellowship of men and the Father-ship of God...
Masons have no denominational restrictions to applying for membership. There have been many Christians including George Washington who were Masons. Masons support many good causes with both financial and participating efforts.
Like Elks and other orgs they have certain rules.

 

[ALX25]

This is the final piece of evidence I needed to determine that you are irrelevant to the conversation. Anytime one feels the need to marginalize the faith of those who disagree with them it becomes apparent that they are proceeding on bias driven emotion rather than reason.

You got it all wrong sir, OFF hasn't marginalized any ones faith, what he is doing is correcting those who are with out the basic truth of Christ JESUS,(in this case masonry) which isn't at all an emotion but the true word of God by instruction which cleary a Christian lives by, masonry is not of Christ... never has been and never will be......

 

[Rev Wayne]

You got it all wrong sir, OFF hasn't marginalized any ones faith

You've GOT to be kidding. Most of the time, that's about all he does. And always without any truth to it, of course. Heck, he couldn't come at me any other way once, so he had to try marginalize the United Methodist Church by trying to claim that "95% of United Methodists are Masons." I didn't point out at the time how ridiculous it was, necessitating as it does, a conclusion that no more than 5% of Methodists were women.

The funny thing about it was, with a membership of 8 million United Methodists, and 1.7 million Masons (or less), he had it wrong from the outset.

 

[O.F.F.]

The funny thing about it was, with a membership of 8 million United Methodists, and 1.7 million Masons (or less), he had it wrong from the outset.

About as wrong as your error in stating:

I didn't point out at the time how ridiculous it was, necessitating as it does, a conclusion that no more than 5% of Methodists were women.

In context to your entire remark, obviously you meant 5% of Methodists are "Masons."

..., so he had to try marginalize the United Methodist Church by trying to claim that "95% of United Methodists are Masons." I didn't point out at the time how ridiculous it was, necessitating as it does, a conclusion that no more than 5% of Methodists were women.

That being the case, then what you are claiming is that of the 1.7 million Masons in the US, 400,000 of them are United Methodists. That's nearly 1 in 4 Masons in the US; which was my point; 25% of the Masonic population is pretty significant.

I don't recall specifically saying "95%" but if I did, my point was that a significant number of Masons in America are from the UMC, which speaks volumes about the denomination. Add that to the significant number of US Masons belonging to the South Baptist Convention (SBC), my 'guess' is together they make up the majority (perhaps 51% or more). Of these two major denominations in America, they have allowed the most compromise when it comes to Masonic membership; which is a sad commentary for them both. And it's even more sad when their pastors do it, which to a certain extent makes them accountable for those that follow them.

 

[Rev Wayne]

In context to your entire remark, obviously you meant 5% of Methodists are "Masons."

Why would that be the case, Michael, when it was eminently clear from your remark that you indicated that 95% were Masons?

It's called simple deduction: since the requirements for being a Mason clearly state:

That every candidate for initiation must be a MAN, free born and of lawful age.

Then it stands to reason that if "95% of United Methodists are Masons," there cannot POSSIBLY be any more than 5% of United Methodists who are women, correct? Therefore, my statement stands just as stated, that if 95% of UM's are Masons, it necessitates "a conclusion that no more than 5% of Methodists (are) women."

Do the math, Michael, it's really not that difficult.

That being the case, then what you are claiming is that of the 1.7 million Masons in the US, 400,000 of them are United Methodists.

I'M not "claiming" anything at all. I was merely making statements about YOUR bogus claims. I don't know how you figure you can take statements earlier made by you and turn them on their head so that they become "my claims," but hey, you always were the true spin-meister.

That's nearly 1 in 4 Masons in the US; which was my point; 25% of the Masonic population is pretty significant.

Better try again, dude. Even if it were true that "I" was making claims, you'd still be way o.f.f. the mark with that suggestion.

For one thing, you've rounded 1.7 upward to make it 2, basically, because that's the only way you could have come up with a "25%" figure.

For another, you've reversed the formula to try to pretend it was all about "how many Masons are Methodists," when your original remark was directed toward the thought of "how many Methodists are Masons." Leaving o.f.f. for the moment the question of whether the 25% figure is correct, and returning to your original comment, I will show you the difference between "how many Masons are Methodists" and "how many Methodists are Masons."

Your claim was 95% of United Methodists are Masons. 95% comes out to 7.6 million Methodist Masons in the U.S. alone. Since the total number of Masons worldwide doesn't even come close to that figure, THAT is why I called it ridiculous--and still do.

Now, had your claim been instead, that "95% of Masons are Methodists," that would still come to a figure of 1,615,000 Methodist Masons. But since the 95% figure has already been shown to be patently absurd, I doubt you'd sell this any more than selling snowshoes in Tahiti.

To reiterate your claim, whichever way you choose to express it:

"how many Masons are Methodists" = .95 x 1.7 mil = 1,615,000
"how many Methodists are Masons" = .95 x 8.0 mil = 7,600,000

YOUR spurious version of the math was to ignore your original comment completely; take the 1.7 million figure of U.S. Masons and divide into the 8 million (rounding upward, as already pointed out, to make it 2 mil), and then making yet another skewed proclamation that Methodists somehow have within their ranks "25% of the Masonic population" in the U.S.--and then having the audacity to try to pretend this was "my claim," when I claimed NOTHING. I merely provided the figures that refuted YOUR claims.

Since you attribute such skewed "math" (if you can call it that) to me, let me point out the flaws in what you are now claiming, so that our readers can fully understand why I would never have made even THAT ridiculous claim.

(1) Masons in the U.S. number 1.7 million--NOT the 2 million to which you rounded your figures.

(2) That would make the percentage (if your approach were valid, which it clearly is not) 21.25% , not the 25% to which you attempted to raise it.

(3) Since the point you raised was not "how many Masons are Methodists," but "how many Methodists are Masons" (the difference already having been explained to you), dividing the number of Masons into the number of Methodists is not a valid means of addressing the point you raised anyway.

(4) Since it's pretty clear that the 95% figure is skewed, necessitating as it does a conclusion that only 5% of Methodists could be women, there is no question it needs to be adjusted.

(5) A safe starting point would be, to adjust it downward to 50%, taking into consideration that both men and women make up UM membership.

(6) That 50% figure must then be adjusted to take into account the factors that affect it: (a) generally speaking, women tend to be more faithful in attendance than men, which would have the effect of lowering that figure on the men's side; (b) statistically, women live longer than men, resulting in lowering it a bit further; (c) United Methodist churches in our current time period, speaking of what has become the norm in most places (and this is true in many other denominations as well), tend to have much larger populations of senior citizens than any other group--a factor which significantly reduces that percentage of men even more (based on the factor of women living longer); the end result being, the balance between men and women in UM churches is probably significantly lower than 50-50. I would submit--and I consider it a conservative estimate--that the figure could easily be a 60-40 ratio of women to men.

(7) Before you begin your objections, which I'm certain will be sure to follow: the above figures have been more than corroborated by 15 years' experience in the ministry. We turn in annual reports where the breakdown is done between male/female members, and the 60/40 is a conservative ballpark figure.

(8) There is still the fact to consider, that even after addressing this as relates to men/women makeup of the church, there are still a significant number of them who could not be Masons, simply because they do not meet the requirement of being "of lawful age." Again, I would not consider it a stretch to assume that 10% of the total could be among that group. If we are to take the 60-40 figure as a guideline, taking into consideration that the females in that 10% have already been figured in as non-Masons by being among the 60% figure accorded the women, then that makes another 4% that could be subtracted from the men's total, bringing the sum total of those who could even POSSIBLY be Masons, to 36%.

That would still leave us, if we divide that into the total number of Methodists, with over 2,880,000 Masons in the U.S.--which is STILL a totally impossible figure.

I'm not impressed with your mathematical abilities any more than with your antimasonic skills. Your facility with either one is underwhelming. At least with the math you have open the option of taking some remedial courses, I'm not sure what you do when the antimasonic skills fall short. I'd offer some help if I could, but so far I haven't managed to locate the David Icke E-Z Seven-Step Online Training Course for Antimasonic Wannabe's.

I guess you're on your own--but then, come to think of it, that's pretty much where you already were with that outlandish claim anyway.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I have family who are Masons. One is a chief in the Navy on a submarine, who is also a 33rd degree Mason. He is an atheist. Others attend churches with their wives, but that isn't their first love. I have nothing in common with them. Their formalities are bizarre and have nothing to do with Christianity. They don't talk about Christ, they talk about everything else though and love their secret society and pomp.
So, no, from my experience, masons aren't something Christ is in.

My experiences have been quite different. In the church where I grew up, there were several extraordinary Christian men, who had a profound effect on my faith as I matured. At the time, I knew them only as godly, caring Christian men. It wasn't until later that I found out that, to a man, they were all Masons. One of them was my high school principal, a man who affected students' lives so profoundly that that still all look back to those times and say that he was their primary influence in school. One was a minister who began taking the youth to camp meeting every summer. It was at that camp meeting that I first gave my life to Christ, and where the Lord later called me into Christian ministry. The president of that camp, who was also a godly influence on me, and on many other young people as well, was also a Mason.

As for being an atheist, I dispute that. In every jurisdiction where I have seen it addressed, it is similar to the statements made in our bylaws:

This constitutes the sole creed of a Mason—at least, the only creed that he is required to profess. But such a profession Is essentially and absolutely necessary, because, without a belief in a superintending Power, with the inevitable deduction from the purity and holiness
of such a Being, that sin will be punished and virtue rewarded, there would be no sanction to a moral law, for the atheist would have no motive to keep a promise or to preserve an obligation. (Ahiman Rezon, p. 85)

Free Masonry recommends and teaches religion and morality, as essential to its own prosperity and the happiness of its members. It endeavors, in all its rites, to Impress these important duties deeply on the minds of the fraternity. It labors to make them pious and virtuous here, that they may be happy hereafter. An Atheist can not be admitted, because he could not be bound by a religious obligation. Immoral men are rejected by our regulations, because they live in defiance of the laws and commands of God; and neither individuals, nor societies composed of such individuals, can be expected to promote the good of their fellow creatures, nor to bring down a blessing from heaven upon any of their concerns. (AR, p. 167)

Atheist. No atheist can be made a Mason, nor has the institution a fitting place for one who, after acceptance, shall be found to be or to have become an atheist. Hence the fact that one who has been received as a Mason is an atheistis a Masonic offense, and upon conviction thereof he shall stand expelled. (AR, Code of the Grand Lodge, Sec. 248, p. 417)

 

[O.F.F.]

As for being an atheist, I dispute that. In every jurisdiction where I have seen it addressed, it is similar to the statements made in our bylaws:

What Masonic bylaws address, and what 'can' actually happen are two different things. All Freemasonry requires, and asks, is that a candidate has a belief in any ol' Supreme Being of choice. An atheist can say yes and still become a member. Freemasonry is not going to investigate whether his response is true or not.

The atheist can lie, or believe that atheisism is his religion and that he is his own god. Either way, he can easily become a member of a lodge; and Masonry will never know one way or another. It's naive to think that an atheist could never become a Freemason and get away with it.

As for this:

My experiences have been quite different. In the church where I grew up, there were several extraordinary Christian men, who had a profound effect on my faith as I matured. At the time, I knew them only as godly, caring Christian men. It wasn't until later that I found out that, to a man, they were all Masons. One of them was my high school principal, a man who affected students' lives so profoundly that that still all look back to those times and say that he was their primary influence in school. One was a minister who began taking the youth to camp meeting every summer. It was at that camp meeting that I first gave my life to Christ, and where the Lord later called me into Christian ministry. The president of that camp, who was also a godly influence on me, and on many other young people as well, was also a Mason.

Certainly there are a few exceptions, but that's all they are; exceptions, not the general rule. My experience, and that of most former Masons who left the lodge for Christ, is similar to what Two Edged Sword claimed. They attend church, profess to be 'Christian' but their lives show that Jesus is not their first love.

 

[ALX25]

The Masons by definition are a fraternal organization promoting the fellowship of men and the Father-ship of God...
Masons have no denominational restrictions to applying for membership. There have been many Christians including George Washington who were Masons. Masons support many good causes with both financial and participating efforts.
Like Elks and other orgs they have certain rules.

One - Masonry is not of the God of the Holy Bible..

Two- Masonry is of gods false gods to be exact and any mans belief or imagination in a god ... as long as your not an atheist one can join masonry.

So the whole idea of masonry by definition promoting fellowship of men and the father-ship of God is far from the truth...

I am an Ex-mason.... there was no mention of JESUS in the lodge ...in fact it was not allowed for his name to be mentioned...and I travelled years ago as a mason ...and the name JESUS was not heard in masonic lodges...

So what possible fellowship-with God the father could have been taught with out God the Son?


So let's stop with the wishfull ..pretending... and let's try posting with one rule ...

Post what you know to be fact...and not what you heard or think masonry is about...

Best Regards,

ALX25

 

[Rev Wayne]

Notice that the Name of "Jesus" is found no where in your above quotes of masonic bylaws?

Last time I checked, Freemasonry was not, and didn't claim to be, the Christian church. Why would anyone expect to find Jesus in a set of bylaws anyway???

Besides, yours is an "argument from absence," and therefore is not a valid argument to begin with. Reminds me of the folks who try to make something out of the fact that "Jesus never said anything against homosexuality" or "Jesus never said anything against taking drugs"--the claimant thinks it says something, but in reality it says nothing.

Religion and morality and "God" is mentioned but so what? Those concepts are present in everything from Bhuddists to Muslim and astrology and even atheists.

But there is nothing "Buddhist" or "Muslim" or "astrological" or "atheistic" to be found in the bylaws or the rituals of Masonry. You CAN, by way of contrast, find PLENTY of biblical content.

But the Name of Jesus and worshipping Him is not mentioned in your masonry bylaws you post.

Why should it be? Where is there anything, in refuting claims that atheists can become Masons, which inherently involves any requirement that I do so with "the name of Jesus" or with anything about "worshipping Him?" Just because one is not an atheist does not automatically entail that they must be Christian, does it? Your claim was that atheists can become Masons; my response was, they cannot, and I cited the reason why. I wasn't trying to take your imaginary atheists and turn them into Christians, I was just showing that they are not in our lodges.

Can you post something out of Masonry concerning Jesus?

Be glad to--but be prepared to entertain multiple posts, if I am to REALLY respond to the question:

The Old Charges: Number, Date, Location, Form. But what are these "Old Gothic Constitutions" also known as the "Old Charges" and the "Old Manuscript Constitutions"? In all, 119 copies have survived, all going back to the same original, and there are references to 15 more that are lost. New versions are turning up all the time; In the last ten years, six more have come to our attention.
Nearly two-thirds of them are earlier than the first Grand Lodge of 1717-perhaps as many as 75. Fifty-five go back before 1700 Four were written about 1600, one is dated 1583, one is about 1400 or 1410, and one goes all the way back to 1390.
Most are located in England; London alone has more than fifty. Thirteen are in Scotland-none of them earlier than 1650; four are in the United States; one was last heard of in Germany; and one has wandered to Canada-the Scarborough Manuscript. of about 1700.
The Old Charges present various aspects. About fourteen are known only from printed transcripts. A few are written on separate sheets of paper or vellum; about thirty-three are written on sheets that are fastened together in book form; but the typical form. represented by more than fifty versions, is a scroll or roll of paper or parchment, between three and fourteen inches wide, and anything up to fourteen and a half feet in length.
Contents. Let us summarize the contents. with a review typical examples of the wording.
They nearly all begin with an Invocation: "The might of the Father of Heaven, with the wisdom of the glorious Son, through the grace and goodness of the Holy Ghost, that be three persons in one Godhead, be with us at our beginning, and give us grace so to govern us here in our living that we may come to His bliss that never shall have ending. Amen.' (Wallace McLeod, "The Old Charges," Short Talk Bulletin)

Thou hast promised that "where two or three are gathered together in Thy name Thou wilt be in the midst of them and bless them."--Matthew 18:20 (From the Opening Prayer--this quotes Jesus)

To this object the Mason's mind is continually directed, and thither he hopes at last to arrive by the aid of the theological ladder, which Jacob, in his vision, saw ascending from earth to heaven.

This ladder that Jacob saw is a typological reference to Jesus (cf. John 1:51)

When at last your trembling soul stands naked and alone before the Great Judgment, may it be your portion to hear from Him who is the Judge Supreme: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant, enter now into the joys of the Lord." (Ahiman Rezon, p. 76)

This quotes Jesus, from Matthew 25.

I am the resurrection and the life, saith the Lord. He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. (Funeral service, Masonic Manual, Grand Lodge of Georgia)

I shouldn't have to tell you, this quotes Jesus from John 11.

"And one of the elders sayeth unto me: 'Rejoice ye and be exceedingly glad-behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah hath prevailed to open the book and to loosen the seven seals thereof," reminding us of two of the great symbolisms of Masonry - the white lamb-skin apron and the sprig of acacia.
The white apron, representative of the lamb that taketh away the sin of the world; emblematical of the sweet peace of God's divine love, which passeth all human understanding and in the portrayal of the Resurrection of the body, the immortality of the soul and the life everlasting” (Memorial Service Program, Grand Lodge of Texas)

The "Lion of the tribe of Judah" who loosened the seven seals, is Jesus (Rev. 5:5).

Wherein they [older forms of religion] were deficient [Masonry] found in the New Law of Love, preached by Jesus of Nazareth, and which He sealed with His blood." (Scottish Rite, 18th degree)

"My Brethren, this is the anniversary of that Last Supper of which Jesus of Nazareth partook with His humble disciples, after which He was betrayed and crucified.
"Who, of any creed, can picture to himself, unmoved, that noble and sweet countenance, which never looked on anything in anger, pale with agony, and streaming with tears? His back was torn by the lash, His bro pierced by the thorns. He suffered, willingly, until it seemed, even to Him, that His God and Father had forsaken Him.
"And yet, even then, bruised, hanged upon a cross, betrayed by one He loved, suffering and, for a moment, questioning, He still calls down not curses but blessings and a prayer for forgiveness upon those who had so treated Him." (Scottish Rite, “Maundy Thursday” ceremony)

"It is therefore proper and in accordance with Masonic law and tenets for a Mason who believes in the Christ Jesus to offer prayers in the Lodge in His Name." (Masonic Code of Alabama)

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay, than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (Murrow’s Masonic Monitor, Oklahoma, p. 190)

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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']A Mason is bound, say the Old Charges, to obey the moral law, and of this law the very keystone is the Divine [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']precept[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']—the "Golden Rule” of our Lord—to [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']do unto others [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']as we would that they should do unto us. (Albert Mackey, Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, p. 705)[/FONT]

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In short, the Mason’s moral and religlous duties are comprised In this command:Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and thy neighbor as thyself. (Ahiman Rezon 2010, "Concerning God and Religion," concluding remark of the section, p. 168)

The small hill near Mount Moriah can be clearly identified by the most convincing analogies as beingno other than Mount Calvary. Thus Mount Calvary was a small hill; it was situated in a westerly direction from the Temple, and near Mount Moriah; It was on the direct road from Jerusalem to Joppa, and is thus the very spot wiser. a weary brother, traveling on the road, would find It convenient to sit down to test and refresh himself; it was outside the gate of the Temple; and lastly, there are several caves, or clefts in the rocks, In the neighborhood, one of which, it will be remembered, was, subsequently to the time of this tradition, used as the sepulchre of our Lord. The Christian Mason will readily perceive the peculiar character of the symbolism which this identification of the spot on which the great truth of the resurrection was unfolded in both systems—the Masonic and the Christian—must suggest. (Ahiman Rezon 2010, p. 149-50)

The very spirit of all of our lectures proves conclusively that when they were formulated they were designed to teach pure trinitarian Christianity, and while the Jewish scriptures did forecast the intermediary of a Christos, as all the ancient heathen mysteries did also, yet Jesus Christ as shown and demonstrated in the writings of the New Testament, was not understood by the Jewish writers of the Old Testament, nor by but very few of that faith since. The first three degrees taken in connection with the Holy Royal Arch, as they have always been with our Brethren of England, certainly show pure Christianity, as taught throughout the writings of the New Testament scriptures. (Mackey, History of Freemasonry, p. 1769)

More in next post.

 

[Rev Wayne]

FATHER—The title by which God is distinguished as being the Father of the Lord Jeus Christ and of all his true disciples.

FLOOD—Occurred approximately 2500 B.C. and was a judgment upon the world for the wickedness of mankind. The wickedness of this age was compared by Jesus to conditions at the time of his Second Coming.

GOD—The Scriptures are full of the truth that there is only one True God. In the OT, God revealed himself to the Hebrews in various ways. In the NT, God revealed himself in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son. Ex. 3:2-6; Deut. 6:4; Acts 17:27-29; I Cor. 8:4-6.

GOSPEL—The glad tidings of salvation through Jesus Christ.

GREAT WHITE THRONE:

This term refers to the pure and glorious throne of God. Before it, every knee must bow and every tongue confess that Christ is God to the glory of the Father.

INTERCESSION—Prayer in behalf of others. Christ is our intercessor or Advocate. The Holy Spirit also makes intercession.

JESUS CHRIST-- The name Jesus means Saviour, derived from the ancient Hebrew, Jehoshua, found only in the NT and should be applied exclusively to Christ. The title CHRIST means anointed, consecrated, sacred, and is used only for the Messiah, who came in fulfillment of prophecy. The whole of OT history took on a new and deeper meaning with His coming. He was born in Bethlehem into an ordinary Jewish family from Nazareth. The person, life, and the work of Jesus are the subject of the whole NT (and in prophecy of the OT), and as a whole, are the historical and doctrinal foundation of Christianity. Matt. 1:1, 21; 16; 13:20; 26:71; John 1:17, 20:31; Acts 2:36.

JUSTIFICATION—An act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous because of the atonement of Christ. Faith is the only means of justification. Rom. 3:23; 4:25.

KINGDOM OF GOD, KINGDOM OF HEAVEN—These terms denote the blessedness of the followers of Christ, partially attained in this life and perfectly in the world to come.

LAMB—A title given to the Lord Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of his people. Its innocence and gentleness made the lamb an example of such qualities in the Saviour. In John 21:15 “lambs” means disciples of Christ. (Rev. 5:6, 8, 12, 13).

LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH:

In the tribal benediction pronounced upon Judah, the "lion's whelp" is used emblematically of strength; hence, the ensign on the banner of Judah was a lion. The phrase in the Masonic ritual, "The lion of the tribe of Juda," is Messianic and refers to Christ, the anointed of God and royal head of God's kingdom.

LORD’S SUPPER—This was instituted by Christ on the night preceding his crucifixion. It is a memorial of Christ’s atoning death and a visible token of Christian fellowship. (Matt. 26:19-30; I Cor.11:23-26).

LOVE—The perfect exercise of love includes our whole duty to God and our fellowman. The love of God to man is manifested in Jesus Christ.

MEDIATOR—One that interposes between persons who are at variance for the purpose of reconciling them. It is a title for Christ, who is the only mediator between God and man. (I Tim. 2:5, Heb. 12:24).

PEACE ON EARTH:

The principles and tenets of Freemasonry and the teachings of the symbols and legends of the Fraternity are conducive to "peace on earth and good will to men." Due recognition is given to the truth that only as the Prince of Peace reigns in the hearts and lives of men can the world ever have real peace. (The significance here is, only Jesus is referred to in Scripture as the Prince of Peace.)

RAISED:

"Raised to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason" refers to the final symbolic ritual of the Third Degree celebrating our faith in the final resurrection of our bodies, to the divinely revealed truth that these vile bodies shall be fashioned into the likeness of the risen and perfected and glorified body of the Lord Jesus Christ.

SACRIFICE—In the OT was the killing, burning and sometimes killing of an animal at the altar. Part of it was offered to God, part eaten by the priest and part by the worshiper. A sacrifice was presented to God as a gift, as an act of thanksgiving, devotion, repentance or payment of vows made to God. The perfect sacrifice was made through the perfect Saviour, Jesus Christ, offered once only and for all. (Ex. 3:18, 40:29, Heb. 13:15, 21

SALVATION—Deliverance from temporal evils or earthly destruction. God is figuratively called “salvation” in Ps. 27:1. In the NT, it denotes the deliverance from sin and death through faith in Christ. (Ex. 14:13; Matt. 1:21).

STONE THAT THE BUILDER REJECTED:

In the erection of Solomon's Temple, one stone that was neither oblong nor square was brought to the builders. The workmen were bewildered by this stone which appeared to be irregular and of no use, and therefore rejected it, casting it into the rubbish. Later, it was discovered that this was the keystone, or copestone, and that it was absolutely necessary for the building. It was sought out and placed in its proper position as the head of the corner. Masons are to be careful that the stone rejected by the Jewish builders of the kingdom of God be not rejected by them.

ST. JOHN THE EVANGELIST:

As a disciple of John the Baptist, John, a son of Zebedee and brother of James, was among the earliest to follow Jesus and to enter into full Christian discipleship. He was numbered among the apostles and was designated as the "disciple whom Jesus loved." He was the author of five of our New Testament books: the Gospel bearing his name; three Epistles; and the Revelation of Jesus Christ. In Masonic history and in rituals, St. John the Evangelist is highly honored and his memory beautifully commemorated.

VEIL OF THE TEMPLE:

This was the curtain or partition which separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. It served as a constant reminder to the Hebrew worshipper that only the high priest, and he only once each year after having made proper atonement for his own sins and for sins of the people, was allowed to enter the Holy of Holies. As a result of the atonement of Christ in his death on the cross, this veil was rent and destroyed, and through him as high priest an open door into the heavenly sanctuary has been prepared for all true worshippers

.


(All of these are from the Heirloom Masonic Bible, glossary)

 

[eachallberg]

Why dismiss Love, to be duped by trivial rituals?

Several principalities where genealogical inheritance is replaced by succession in a religious office have existed in the RCC, in each case consisting of a feudal polity (often a former secular principality in the broad sense) held ex officio — the closest possible equivalent to hereditary succession — by a Prince of the church, styled more precisely according to his ecclesiastical rank, such as Prince-bishop, Prince-abbot or, especially as a form of crusader state, Grand Master.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high.

Ephesians 6:12.

He knows who are his.
Peace.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Wow, talk about obtuse.

 

[O.F.F.]

Last time I checked, Freemasonry was not, and didn't claim to be, the Christian church.

It doesn't claim to be a Christian fraternity either. However, you claim that "Masonry cites no "volume of sacred law" other than the Bible within its rituals. Its allegorical teachings are founded on the Bible, and not on any other book...Every principle of Masonry is founded on teachings from the Bible."

Okay, so tell us old wise one, if it contains what you claim, but it's NOT a religion, or the Christian church, or a Christian fraternity, then what the heck is it?

 

[O.F.F.]

(All of these are from the Heirloom Masonic Bible, glossary)

The Heirloom Masonic Bible also says this:

Resurrection - Does Freemasonry teach that the body shall be raised and given eternal existence.

A. The doctrine of the resurrection of the body to a future and eternal life constitutes an essential dogma of the religious faith of Freemasonry. The requirement for adherence to this doctrine holds equal rank with the demand for belief in Deity and in the immortality of the soul. It is more authoritatively inculcated in the symbolism of the Third Degree than is possible by any dogmatic creed. Throughout the ritualisms, symbolisms, legends, and lectures of the Order, these doctrines are affirmed.

Notice it doesn't say the "Christian faith," but rather, "the religious faith of Freemasonry".

As one Ex-Mason for Jesus once said, "Now, that is quite a mouthful for an organization that denies being a religion. We have "essential dogma", "doctrine", something that is even more authoritatively inculcated than any "dogmatic creed" - All in reference to what? "the religious faith of Freemasonry."

 

[ALX25]

We got man down with a possible concussion...Bp feels a little low too

and he's not responding to an argument...


Wayne help is comming buddy ...hang on man

 

[Rev Wayne]

you claim that "Masonry cites no "volume of sacred law" other than the Bible within its rituals.

I don't "claim" it. It's indisputable fact. And every time I've challenged you to show otherwise, you have either hemmed and hawed without any substance, or vacated the thread where it came up.

Okay, so tell us old wise one, if it contains what you claim, but it's NOT a religion, or the Christian church, or a Christian fraternity, then what the heck is it?

A system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols.

The Heirloom Masonic Bible also says this:

Perhaps if you had cited page number and year of publication? I feel pretty safe in telling you that not only can I not locate this, but I'm pretty certain it's not in mine. Since you begin your citation with the word itself, that would make it either glossary or biblical index. But since it also follows with "A.," that would appear to place it in the section on "Questions and Answers." But that section, if you noticed, is alphabetical, and mine goes from "Queen" to "Reveal" with nothing between, which is where "resurrection" would fall if it WERE there.

So exactly where in the world did you get that?

Otherwise, I can only point out that "resurrection" is not in the glossary," and in fact, the only place I find it is in the "Biblical index to Freemasonry," but even then, that's NOT what it says. What it says, and I quote:

From the beginning, Freemasonry has been built upon two cardinal beliefs: a belief in God, and a belief in a resurrection to a future life. This latter belief assumes faith in the immortality of man in his soul or spirit life and recognizes the need of redemption or salvation from sin through divine grace. Throughout the rituals and symbolisms of Freemasonry, and in all of its mythical teachings and legends, belief in these truths is exemplified and demanded. (see Raised) (p. 79)

Since it says "see Raised," I did so, where I also found:

"Raised to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason" refers to the final symbolic ritual of the Third Degree celebrating our faith in the final resurrection of our bodies, to the divinely revealed truth that these vile bodies shall be fashioned into the likeness of the risen and perfected and glorified body of the Lord Jesus Christ. (p. 79)

Sorry, but it looks like strikeout time for you again. Everything I find in the Heirloom Bible glossary and biblical index all point to Christian interpretation of the degrees and terms of Masonry.

Notice it doesn't say the "Christian faith," but rather, "the religious faith of Freemasonry".

As one Ex-Mason for Jesus once said, "Now, that is quite a mouthful for an organization that denies being a religion. We have "essential dogma", "doctrine", something that is even more authoritatively inculcated than any "dogmatic creed" - All in reference to what? "the religious faith of Freemasonry."

It doesn't HAVE to say "the Christian faith" for anyone with an ounce of discernment. All the rituals are biblically-based; the Heirloom Bible given to Masons upon receiving the third degree in our jurisdiction, consistently defines Masonic terms in reference to Jesus Christ; and even the passage you "cited," if it actually does appear in a Masonic Heirloom Bible as you claim, but which has not been yet ascertained--did you bother actually digesting what you read, rather than filtering through it for cannon fodder to fire back as quickly as you could get it loaded? If you had, you might have noticed what "religious faith" would be the only one possible, given what was stated:

A. The doctrine of the resurrection of the body to a future and eternal life constitutes an essential dogma of the religious faith of Freemasonry. The requirement for adherence to this doctrine holds equal rank with the demand for belief in Deity and in the immortality of the soul. It is more authoritatively inculcated in the symbolism of the Third Degree than is possible by any dogmatic creed. Throughout the ritualisms, symbolisms, legends, and lectures of the Order, these doctrines are affirmed.

The description of it as "resurrection of the body," and not merely "resurrection," SHOULD have revealed to you what relgion was being referred to. There is no religion which teaches this but one, for it is exclusive to Christianity. So unwittingly, you just provided us yet another clue which reveals for us that which Masonry everywhere symbolizes and nowhere directly declares, the "religious faith of Freemasonry" cannot be anything but Christianity, if one understands the hints it drops in so many places. Masonry is symbolic, so it doesn't "declare," and doesn't dogmatize. It hints, it allegorizes, it alludes, but never states, the true object of its many symbols. The clues are there for anyone to see, you just happen to miss them all, and all the time.

There have been many Masons who have understood enough about its symbols and allegories to figure it out: Oliver was one; Mackey was another; Wilmshurst was yet another; Josiah Whymper figured it out and wrote a whole book about it; Leon Davin discovered the same truth about Royal Arch, and wrote The Greatest Secret Never Told, declaring these things to be so; Scandinavian countries discovered it and developed Swedish Rite, which carries with it a requirement that candidates for Masonry must first be Christians. Muslims discovered it and banned it in their countries.

Why is it, do you suppose, that the antimasons are always the last to know?

 

[Rev Wayne]

We got someone in here who seems to think everybody ought to spend all their free time in here like he does, and thinks someone has no response, when actually they never read the posts yet. Get him some smelling salts, maybe he'll come around.

 

[O.F.F.]

Perhaps if you had cited page number and year of publication? I feel pretty safe in telling you that not only can I not locate this, but I'm pretty certain it's not in mine. Since you begin your citation with the word itself, that would make it either glossary or biblical index. But since it also follows with "A.," that would appear to place it in the section on "Questions and Answers." But that section, if you noticed, is alphabetical, and mine goes from "Queen" to "Reveal" with nothing between, which is where "resurrection" would fall if it WERE there.

So exactly where in the world did you get that?

Perhaps the source I captured it from has a different edition. Or, maybe you aren't being truthful about what's in the edition you have; which wouldn't be a surprise given how often you are untruthful about Freemasonry in general. Personally, I do not have any edition of the Heirloom Masonic Bible. I have the Holman Masonic Bible, 8th edition. Mine pretty much says what I have quoted.

However, I can tell you, I got it from a reliable source, which you should already know by now. I'll give you some credit for what section you think the quote may have came; as it came from the ‘Questions and Answers’ section of the Heirloom Masonic Bible. And, it came from one column over on page 55, where we find this:

Raised - What is the significance of this term?

A. When a candidate has received the Third Degree, he is said to have been "raised" to the Sublime Degree of a Master Mason. Literally, this refers to a portion of the ceremony; but more significantly, it refers symbolically to the resurrection, which is exemplified as the object of the degree. See Resurrection.

To make sure you didn't miss it, like you often do with other parts of some posts, I highlighted the last two words, "see Resurrection," which is what I quoted from the same source. Urging readers to also "see Resurrection" is an obvious indication that they are linking the two terms (Raised and Resurrection).

What interesting is the fact that apparently they quoted a prominent Mason from your own jurisdiction of South Carolina, Albert G. Mackey:

Raised.

When a candidate has received the third degree, he is said to have been "raised" to the sublime degree of a Master Mason. The expression refers, materially, to a portion of the ceremony of initiation, but symbolically, to the resurrection, which it is the object of the degree to exemplify.

Mackey’s Encyclopedia of Freemasonry

So since the Heirloom Masonic Bible edition quoted urges readers to "see Resurrection" it only make sense to quote their definition of the term as defined, also on page 55, in that same source:

Resurrection - Does Freemasonry teach that the body shall be raised and given eternal existence.

A. The doctrine of the resurrection of the body to a future and eternal life constitutes an essential dogma of the religious faith of Freemasonry. The requirement for adherence to this doctrine holds equal rank with the demand for belief in Deity and in the immortality of the soul. It is more authoritatively inculcated in the symbolism of the Third Degree than is possible by any dogmatic creed. Throughout the ritualisms, symbolisms, legends, and lectures of the Order, these doctrines are affirmed.

Yet, even in this quote, they borrowed from the prominent Mason from the jurisdiction of South Carolina. But he elaborates even further about the 'Masonic' concept of Resurrection:

RESURRECTION

The doctrine of a resurrection to a future and eternal life constitutes an indispensable portion of the religious faith of Freemasonry. It is not authoritatively inculcated as a point of dogmatic creed, but is impressively taught by the symbolism of the Third Degree. This dogma has existed among almost all nations from a very early period. The Egyptians, in their mysteries, taught a final resurrection of the soul. Although the Jews, in escaping from their Egyptian thraldom, did not carry this doctrine with them into the desert—for it formed no part of the Mosaic theology—yet they subsequently, after the captivity, borrowed it from the Zoroastrians.

The Brahmans and Buddhists of the East, the Etruseans of the South, and the Druids and the Scandinavian Skalds of the West, nursed the faith of a resurrection to future life. The Greeks and the Romans subscribed to it; and it was one of the great objects of their mysteries to teach it. It is, as we all know, an essential part of the Christian faith, and was exemplified, in His own resurrection, by Christ to His followers. In Freemasonry, a particular Degree, the Master's, has been appropriated to teach it by an impressive symbolism. "Thus, " says Hutchinson (Spirit of Masonry, page 164), "our Order is a positive contradiction to Judaic blindness and infidelity, and testifies our faith concerning the resurrection of the body."

We may deny that there has been a regular descent of Freemasonry, as a secret organization, from the mystical association of the Eleusinians, the Samothracians, or the Dionysians. No one, however, who carefully examines the mode in which the resurrection or restoration to life was taught by a symbol and a ceremony in the Ancient Mysteries, and how the same dogma is now taught in the Masonic initiation, can, without absolutely rejecting the evident concatenation of circumstances which lies patent before him, refuse his assent to the proposition that the latter was derived from the former.

The resemblance between the Dionysiac Legend, for instance, and the Hiramic cannot have been purely accidental. The chain that connects them is easily found in the fact that the Pagan Mysteries lasted until the fourth century of the Christian era, and, as the Fathers of the Church lamented, exercised an influence over the secret societies of the Middle Ages. (emphasis added)

Mackey’s Encyclopedia of Freemasonry

It seems the 'prominent' Mason (which you are not) from your own jurisdiction of South Carolina pretty much refutes your lame interpretation of the Masonic definitions of 'Raised' and 'Resurrection.'

 

[Rev Wayne]

Perhaps the source I captured it from has a different edition. Or, maybe you aren't being truthful about what's in the edition you have;

Well, there's only one way to show that, I suppose. I'll get to that shortly.

it came from the ‘Questions and Answers’ section of the Heirloom Masonic Bible. And, it came from one column over on page 55, where we find this:

Oh, that's a "different edition" all right. That's not even the Q & A section at all. What YEAR was that edition--since apparently you seem to be trying to avoid answering THAT part of my question?

What interesting is the fact that apparently they quoted a prominent Mason from your own jurisdiction of South Carolina, Albert G. Mackey:

Funny thing is, you say that, but I fail to see how what you posted in your alleged Heirloom Bible quote, and what you just posted from Mackey, resembles a "Mackey quote" in the least. There wasn't a bit of similarity between the two.

So since the Heirloom Masonic Bible edition quoted urges readers to "see Resurrection" it only make sense to quote their definition of the term as defined, also on page 55, in that same source:

Sorry, your distorted version of "logic" won't even pass kindergarten muster. You didn't show any "quote" from Mackey, and you have even LESS justification for trying to substitute Mackey for what is found in the Heirloom Masonic Bible.

Yet, even in this quote, they borrowed from the prominent Mason from the jurisdiction of South Carolina. But he elaborates even further about the 'Masonic' concept of Resurrection:

That's pretty humorous to try to sell this to the readers, but underlining a word here and there and pretending it matches is so patently ridiculous it doesn't even deserve comment. And underlining gobs of material which doesn't match anything found in the Heirloom Bible, is pure lunacy.

The 'prominent' Mason (which you are not). . .

Master of the obvious, I see.

. . . from your own jurisdiction of South Carolina pretty much refutes your lame interpretation of the Masonic definitions of Raised and Resurrection.

Funny how first you CLAIM to be quoting from an Heirloom Masonic Bible, then when you are challenged on the matter by someone who quotes what it REALLY says, you resort to Albert Mackey's Encyclopedia. First, let me tell you what the BIGGEST problem is with that:

(1) my Masonic Bible is sanctioned by this Grand Lodge, and is one of its officially sanctioned Masonic publications. Mackey's Encyclopedia is not.

(2) "Lame interpretation" is a pretty scruffy attempt to re-define what I posted, which was a DIRECT CITATION from the Heirloom Masonic Bible in my possession.

(3) Just because Mackey comes from this jurisdiction, does not give you any justification for the pure chicanery you just engaged in. Anybody can see right through this shell game, to see that your only object in this, being unable to refute what I stated, is to substitute something else from another source for the material that actually appears in the Heirloom Bible.

(4) Since you continue to persist in this deception, it becomes necessary to expose your deliberate misrepresentation.

From the "Biblical Index to Freemasonry," the actual entries for those terms, which as anyone can see, are exactly as I posted them:

http://www.christianforums.com/users/13248-albums3726-33535.jpg

You will notice that there is more information which I did not include in the earlier posting of it: to the right of each description, the entry contains Bible references and the page numbers where they are located, for easy correlation of the things discussed. There are eight separate references to resurrection from NEW TESTAMENT passages that are included with these Masonic definitions. If Masonry was not interpreting resurrection in relation to Jesus Christ--which of course is very direct in what was cited--then why would they be citing from New Testament passages about Jesus' resurrection, about the raising of Lazarus, or from Paul's well-known comments on the necessity of belief in the resurrection of Christ, or from Jesus' teachings about resurrection, or about the dead in Christ rising at the rapture?

You, my friend, are in SERIOUS denial!

I apologize to the readers for this man's attempted deception, since he apparently has no scruples about making unauthenticated claims. I'm sure he means well, in his own way, but lets obsession overcome discretion upon occasion. Heck, he can't even raise his own arguments, but must "borrow" them from others. No surprise there, though, he's been doing that for years, often "borrowing" word-for-word, without attribution--which of course, there is another word that describes that kind of action. The argument he makes about the Mackey material comes from points made by Duane Washum of emfj in an article here:

Death Burial and Resurrection in the Masonic Lodge

And the reason he declined to list the year of publication of that particular Bible? None was given by Washum in the article.

But we can at least determine a general time frame that will be helpful. Washum says about his Heirloom Masonic Bible:

that is how I got my copy. It was a tradition at Vegas Lodge No. 32 that on the evening a candidate was "raised", he was presented with a copy of the Heirloom Masonic Bible, as a gift from the lodge.

According to Duane Washum's testimony on that same website, he was raised a Master Mason on November 10, 1978. That being the case, the publication year of that Bible has to have been 1978 or earlier.

The Bible I was presesnted was the same, the Heirloom Masonic Bible, Master Mason edition, with this difference: its publication date was 1991.

This presents antimasons with a very real predicament. Many times on these threads, they have tried to claim that there has been a gradual process by which Jesus, and/or Christianity, have been "removed" from Freemasonry. Yet we find, just as was shown on an earlier thread where the same thing was attempted, that the pattern actually appears to be the reverse of what they have claimed. Anyone can see, by comparing what Mike has posted, with what I have cited directly from the Masonic Heirloom Bible in my possession, that during the intervening 13 years from the time the Bible Mike referred to was published, and the time mine was presented, the Masonic materials found in the front and back sections of supplemental material, have improved vastly in what they declare about Jesus Christ, becoming more direct and more Christocentric, with much more theological elatoration.

The real puzzle is, trying to figure out why Mike has such a problem with Masonry doing that. I thought he was of the opinion that they should do so.