A Paradoxical Heavenly Quandary

[Ana the Ist]

So here's a question that's bound to lead to more questions... but let's start here.

Another Christian poster on another thread mentioned that we are all born with a sinful nature. That we all have sinful desires and it's upon us not to act upon them.

This begs the question then, of what happens when one of us reaches heaven? Do we get to commit all those sins that are part of our nature? This would seem odd.

Even more odd would be other possibilities...does god mutilate our souls? Does he "make" us no longer sinful? If so, what was the point of making us sinful to begin with? Even more disturbing would be the question of would that person destroyed of their "sinfulness" still really be a person? I think not...but I'd love to read the responses of any christians with any thoughts on this.

 

[poolerboy0077]

Quite the problem, isn't it? I mean, if one can have free will, as many Christians believe we do, but be free of sin (which presumably how heaven is) then why have sin to begin with? What's the point if free will can exist without it? Why even make us go through our corporal existence and not just have us pop into existence already in heaven with him? Why does he need to save us from himself and the doom he's orchestrated?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

So here's a question that's bound to lead to more questions... but let's start here.

Another Christian poster on another thread mentioned that we are all born with a sinful nature. That we all have sinful desires and it's upon us not to act upon them.

This begs the question then, of what happens when one of us reaches heaven? Do we get to commit all those sins that are part of our nature? This would seem odd.

Even more odd would be other possibilities...does god mutilate our souls? Does he "make" us no longer sinful? If so, what was the point of making us sinful to begin with? Even more disturbing would be the question of would that person destroyed of their "sinfulness" still really be a person? I think not...but I'd love to read the responses of any christians with any thoughts on this.

Well, for one thing, a lot of our sins here will simply not be possible to do there. We can't murder or harm each other. We probably would be instantly known if we tried to lie. We are not given in marriage any more, so no more adultery . . .

Just exactly how would we sin if we wanted to?

Take a hint from all the stories of near death experiences. They all report such a sensation of overwhelming love and forgiveness that it is rather difficult to imagine someone in the throws of such feelings would . . . sin.

Even those who report the hellish vision instead of the heavenly, its kind of difficult to figure out how they would actually work out to commit a sin of some kind as they go through what they are going through. Maybe a blasphemy would be possible.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, for one thing, a lot of our sins here will simply not be possible to do there. We can't murder or harm each other. We probably would be instantly known if we tried to lie. We are not given in marriage any more, so no more adultery . . .

Just exactly how would we sin if we wanted to?

Take a hint from all the stories of near death experiences. They all report such a sensation of overwhelming love and forgiveness that it is rather difficult to imagine someone in the throws of such feelings would . . . sin.

Even those who report the hellish vision instead of the heavenly, its kind of difficult to figure out how they would actually work out to commit a sin of some kind as they go through what they are going through. Maybe a blasphemy would be possible.

I'm afraid I don't put much stock in ndes....

So if you're going with the idea of a sinless heaven...well honestly I'm not sure what idea you're going with. Are you saying we could sin but simply wouldn't want to? Or that it's physically impossible to do "moral wrong"?

 

[Albion]

So here's a question that's bound to lead to more questions... but let's start here.

Another Christian poster on another thread mentioned that we are all born with a sinful nature. That we all have sinful desires and it's upon us not to act upon them.

This begs the question then, of what happens when one of us reaches heaven? Do we get to commit all those sins that are part of our nature? This would seem odd.

Even more odd would be other possibilities...does god mutilate our souls? Does he "make" us no longer sinful? If so, what was the point of making us sinful to begin with? Even more disturbing would be the question of would that person destroyed of their "sinfulness" still really be a person? I think not...but I'd love to read the responses of any christians with any thoughts on this.

We're born estranged from God. It's not as though he forced otherwise wonderful people to be sinners. Forgiven, we will enjoy being restored in heaven.

 

[jayem]

Even more disturbing would be the question of would that person destroyed of their "sinfulness" still really be a person?

Dittoes to that. Being incapable of having sinful thoughts or desires sounds like the robotic existence believers use as an argument against why we have the free will to sin in our earthly life. And will eternal joy and bliss really have any meaning if we can no longer experience pain or sorrow?

 

[Belk]

So here's a question that's bound to lead to more questions... but let's start here.

Another Christian poster on another thread mentioned that we are all born with a sinful nature. That we all have sinful desires and it's upon us not to act upon them.

This begs the question then, of what happens when one of us reaches heaven? Do we get to commit all those sins that are part of our nature? This would seem odd.

Even more odd would be other possibilities...does god mutilate our souls? Does he "make" us no longer sinful? If so, what was the point of making us sinful to begin with? Even more disturbing would be the question of would that person destroyed of their "sinfulness" still really be a person? I think not...but I'd love to read the responses of any christians with any thoughts on this.

I have been asking this for a while and have yet to get a good answer.

 

[Ana the Ist]

We're born estranged from God. It's not as though he forced otherwise wonderful people to be sinners. Forgiven, we will enjoy being restored in heaven.

Restored to what?

 

[Golden Yak]

Well, for one thing, a lot of our sins here will simply not be possible to do there. We can't murder or harm each other. We probably would be instantly known if we tried to lie. We are not given in marriage any more, so no more adultery . . .

Will people in heaven/the new kingdom/afterlife/whatever produce offspring? Or will the population be fixed and never changed, with no new humans ever conceived?

 

[Albion]

Will people in heaven/the new kingdom/afterlife/whatever produce offspring? Or will the population be fixed and never changed, with no new humans ever conceived?

All humans are conceived and born on Earth or at least somewhere in the physical world, not the world of the spirits.

 

[keith99]

So here's a question that's bound to lead to more questions... but let's start here.

Another Christian poster on another thread mentioned that we are all born with a sinful nature. That we all have sinful desires and it's upon us not to act upon them.

This begs the question then, of what happens when one of us reaches heaven? Do we get to commit all those sins that are part of our nature? This would seem odd.

Even more odd would be other possibilities...does god mutilate our souls? Does he "make" us no longer sinful? If so, what was the point of making us sinful to begin with? Even more disturbing would be the question of would that person destroyed of their "sinfulness" still really be a person? I think not...but I'd love to read the responses of any christians with any thoughts on this.

Of course doctrines vary, but the only family of doctrines I find at all palatable goes something like this.

You of your own free will ask God into your life and the very first step is asking him to perfect you. You are fully aware that this process will not be easy and may even be painful. Many seem to ignore that it is all but promised that this process will not be completed in this life. Your God will continue to work on perfecting you long after this life is over.

In the terms of your post, the quick almost magical change many seem to desire would in fact be mutilation. It would be cutting huge parts out or the soul, spirit or whatever you consider the core of one's being (Assuming such lives on after the death of the body). If such a path were taken one might be sin free, but far from perfected. One would be a mutilated shadow of a man. God instead takes a slower and more difficult path that will keep ALL the good while slowly, though not always painlessly, eliminating the bad.

If only I believed I'd make a pretty decent apologist. If I had lived 100 years ago and could get the right spectacles I might have been a decent theologian, burnt at the stake or both!

 

[Golden Yak]

All humans are conceived and born on Earth or at least somewhere in the physical world, not the world of the spirits.

Alright, so after the end times and the eternal kingdom of God kicks in, there will be no new humans produced?

 

[Albion]

Alright, so after the end times and the eternal kingdom of God kicks in, there will be no new humans produced?

Not based upon everything we know.

Of course, we should not assume that we know, in this life, everything that God does or does.

 

[Gottservant]

You are always a person, if you are not, not being means nothing. (selah)

 

[Ana the Ist]

Of course doctrines vary, but the only family of doctrines I find at all palatable goes something like this.

You of your own free will ask God into your life and the very first step is asking him to perfect you. You are fully aware that this process will not be easy and may even be painful. Many seem to ignore that it is all but promised that this process will not be completed in this life. Your God will continue to work on perfecting you long after this life is over.

In the terms of your post, the quick almost magical change many seem to desire would in fact be mutilation. It would be cutting huge parts out or the soul, spirit or whatever you consider the core of one's being (Assuming such lives on after the death of the body). If such a path were taken one might be sin free, but far from perfected. One would be a mutilated shadow of a man. God instead takes a slower and more difficult path that will keep ALL the good while slowly, though not always painlessly, eliminating the bad.

If only I believed I'd make a pretty decent apologist. If I had lived 100 years ago and could get the right spectacles I might have been a decent theologian, burnt at the stake or both!

lol I'm not sure a slow, gradual mutilation would be preferable to a quick one...but I see what you're saying

The thing is though, so many here (and I'd believe in real life as well) think that even if you accept Jesus moments before death you're granted entrance. We wouldn't actually believe that the nature of the person has changed instantly (that would be quite ridiculous) and yet I don't see how it could be any other way in heaven. Kinda like a lobotomy or the Ludovico method.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So here's a question that's bound to lead to more questions... but let's start here.

Another Christian poster on another thread mentioned that we are all born with a sinful nature. That we all have sinful desires and it's upon us not to act upon them.

This begs the question then, of what happens when one of us reaches heaven? Do we get to commit all those sins that are part of our nature? This would seem odd.

Even more odd would be other possibilities...does god mutilate our souls? Does he "make" us no longer sinful? If so, what was the point of making us sinful to begin with? Even more disturbing would be the question of would that person destroyed of their "sinfulness" still really be a person? I think not...but I'd love to read the responses of any christians with any thoughts on this.

Christians assert that there will be a process of 'glorification.' I wouldn't say that the process is akin to any kind of mutilation; it's more like the difference between an Oak seed and an Oak tree--hardly any kind of mutilation going on there. Glorification should be seen as a kind of evolutionary jump...

 

[Tree of Life]

So here's a question that's bound to lead to more questions... but let's start here.

Another Christian poster on another thread mentioned that we are all born with a sinful nature. That we all have sinful desires and it's upon us not to act upon them.

This begs the question then, of what happens when one of us reaches heaven? Do we get to commit all those sins that are part of our nature? This would seem odd.

Even more odd would be other possibilities...does god mutilate our souls? Does he "make" us no longer sinful? If so, what was the point of making us sinful to begin with? Even more disturbing would be the question of would that person destroyed of their "sinfulness" still really be a person? I think not...but I'd love to read the responses of any christians with any thoughts on this.

Sin is enmity with God and everything that comes from this enmity.

Salvation is reconciliation with God and everything that comes from this reconciliation.

Heaven is perfect communion with God as a result of reconciliation.

Before the fall it was possible to sin. Because of our sinful nature it's impossible to not sin. When a person is saved it becomes possible to not sin. When we are fully glorified in heaven it will be impossible to sin.

It won't be logically impossible. But it will be impossible in that sin will be inconceivable. No one will want to do it because we will have perfect rest and delight in the presence of the Lord.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Christians assert that there will be a process of 'glorification.' I wouldn't say that the process is akin to any kind of mutilation; it's more like the difference between an Oak seed and an Oak tree--hardly any kind of mutilation going on there. Glorification should be seen as a kind of evolutionary jump...

Well whether you look at it as a good thing or bad isn't all that relevant is it? The result either way is that choice is taken from you...correct?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So here's a question that's bound to lead to more questions... but let's start here.

Another Christian poster on another thread mentioned that we are all born with a sinful nature. That we all have sinful desires and it's upon us not to act upon them.

This begs the question then, of what happens when one of us reaches heaven? Do we get to commit all those sins that are part of our nature? This would seem odd.

Even more odd would be other possibilities...does god mutilate our souls? Does he "make" us no longer sinful? If so, what was the point of making us sinful to begin with? Even more disturbing would be the question of would that person destroyed of their "sinfulness" still really be a person? I think not...but I'd love to read the responses of any christians with any thoughts on this.

Our sinful desires are part of our death-centric lives. Once we pass through death and leave that part of ourselves that always lives with death on the horizon (or physical bodies), our souls will be liberated from those desires.

Of course, souls are also sinful, and thus Christians believe that we need to be forgiven as well as simply dying. But the source of the evil inclinations is our flesh, as we seek to satiate it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sin is enmity with God and everything that comes from this enmity.

Salvation is reconciliation with God and everything that comes from this reconciliation.

Heaven is perfect communion with God as a result of reconciliation.

Before the fall it was possible to sin. Because of our sinful nature it's impossible to not sin. When a person is saved it becomes possible to not sin. When we are fully glorified in heaven it will be impossible to sin.

It won't be logically impossible. But it will be impossible in that sin will be inconceivable. No one will want to do it because we will have perfect rest and delight in the presence of the Lord.

Gotcha. So why not make us as such now? Why wait until we get into heaven?