A non believing gay believer

[joey_downunder]

I understand that God usually speaks through messages, signs etc but has been known to contact people via an inner voice. The only direct contact I have had has actually been with another deity.

I assume that is when you were exploring other religions? I bet you already know here is a lot of debate about how much God actually "speaks" to people today as in a direct sense.

Not sure, I guess a proper attempt at communication with me.

I hope learning about Jesus and what He did for you communicates a lot about His love for you.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8)

In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

In the past when you read the bible did certain passages ever say anything to you? e.g. Have you ever seen something you hadn't seen before all of a sudden, or you were feeling bad and you received some real encouragement?

Some were, yes.

Well part of a pastor's job is to teach the bible, and if he preaches it properly inevitably at some stage it will confront us with our own sins.

I am not sure what that means to be honest.

I get the impression you were taught about what is sinful according to the bible, but nothing about what to do when a Christian realises they have a real struggle with sin.

I think the word sin is generally overused.

I bet all of us wish sins we enjoy are not sins and the convincing excuses we make for them are true. With enough selective truth-telling and white lies (to ourselves AND others) black can become white and night is really day....

A glutton believes their overindulgence to be a healthy appetite.
A fashion victim believes their vanity is pride of appearance.
A person addicted to self-pity believes they have a melancholy temperament. (I was very guilty of this one!)
A very proud person believes they truly deserve better treatment than most people.

Does God believe our excuses if we are thoroughly convinced we're telling the truth though?

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (Luke 12:48)

P.S. I remembered an interesting testimony for you. Young and Homosexual - SermonAudio.com

 

[elephunky]

I assume that is when you were exploring other religions? I bet you already know here is a lot of debate about how much God actually "speaks" to people today as in a direct sense.

That is correct. I would imagine if there is a debate on how much speaks to people, that people would have different experiences in relation to that.

I hope learning about Jesus and what He did for you communicates a lot about His love for you.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8)

In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

In the past when you read the bible did certain passages ever say anything to you? e.g. Have you ever seen something you hadn't seen before all of a sudden, or you were feeling bad and you received some real encouragement?

I am familiar with that passage, yes.

I was able to to interpret the messages that I came across but they did not really speak to me.

Well part of a pastor's job is to teach the bible, and if he preaches it properly inevitably at some stage it will confront us with our own sins.

That depends on the listener.

I get the impression you were taught about what is sinful according to the bible, but nothing about what to do when a Christian realises they have a real struggle with sin.

They taught this kind of thing but I didnt necessarily agree with it.

I bet all of us wish sins we enjoy are not sins and the convincing excuses we make for them are true. With enough selective truth-telling and white lies (to ourselves AND others) black can become white and night is really day....

A glutton believes their overindulgence to be a healthy appetite.
A fashion victim believes their vanity is pride of appearance.
A person addicted to self-pity believes they have a melancholy temperament. (I was very guilty of this one!)
A very proud person believes they truly deserve better treatment than most people.

Does God believe our excuses if we are thoroughly convinced we're telling the truth though?

A lot of this depends on your perception of these kind of things. For someone who doesnt subscribe to the idea of sin it seems a bit silly.

P.S. I remembered an interesting testimony for you. Young and Homosexual - SermonAudio.com

Listening to it now.

 

[elephunky]

P.S. I remembered an interesting testimony for you. Young and Homosexual - SermonAudio.com

Interesting. i see what you did there.

 

[joey_downunder]

A lot of this depends on your perception of these kind of things. For someone who doesnt subscribe to the idea of sin it seems a bit silly.

Yes, an essential part of the Christian faith is to recognize that we are a sinner and we need saving from our sins. If you don't believe in sins fullstop, you cannot see a need for Jesus Christ as your Saviour.

Interesting. i see what you did there.

I have given that link in the "sexual struggles" section before as well.

 

[elephunky]

Yes, an essential part of the Christian faith is to recognize that we are a sinner and we need saving from our sins. If you don't believe in sins fullstop, you cannot see a need for Jesus Christ as your Saviour.

This is probably why i am not a christian. I believe in certain aspects of sin like murder, stealing, sleeping with your brothers wife etc. The others however...

I have always felt that Jesus was a man with a message. My desire was always for God, not Jesus.

I have given that link in the "sexual struggles" section before as well.

What did you get out of the talk?

 

[joey_downunder]

This is probably why i am not a christian. I believe in certain aspects of sin like murder, stealing, sleeping with your brothers wife etc. The others however...

So what society in general condemns you have no trouble labelling as sin as well?

I have always felt that Jesus was a man with a message. My desire was always for God, not Jesus.

What do you think about the Christian doctrine that Jesus is God made flesh?

What did you get out of the talk?

I was curious about what gay Christians experience because I like to understand people.

I admired her honesty about her struggle and how with God's help she was able to overcome this sin. I think her testimony shows how mere willpower is not enough, it is a spiritual issue not just a psychological/biological one.

Probably Christians who have never battled with sexual sins themselves are waaayyy too judgemental. I apologize for their insensitivity and lack of empathy, I know I was one of them as well until I hit my late teens (very bad heterosexual relationship).

 

[hedrick]

You've asked a kind of amorphous question, so I have to guess about how to respond. A lot of your Christian experience differs from mine. It was never about rules for me, and of course my church has no problem with gays or interracial marriage. For me Christianity was always about admiring Jesus, trying to follow him, caring about other people, prayer and worship.

But your experience isn't that unusual. There are lots of varieties of Christianity that I consider unhealthy, and there can also be churches that are perfectly OK, but not for certain people. Some people in your situation end up coming back to Christianity; some don't.

It seems to me that the key is your reaction to Jesus. All the Christians I know read the Gospels and say "YES! I really see God in him, and I want to live like that." Specific doctrines and "repressive" attitudes can be negotiated, but if you don't see God speaking to you through Jesus's life and teachings, you should probably remain non-Christian.

It's fine to be a seeker, but in the end you'll probably want to adopt some specific discipline (my favorite outside Biblical religion would be Buddhism), since spiritual development normally requires commitment and self-discipline.

 

[elephunky]

So what society in general condemns you have no trouble labelling as sin as well?

Not exactly, it contributes in a small way but my concept of sin isnt based on it.

What do you think about the Christian doctrine that Jesus is God made flesh?

I dont subscribe to that concept. I think that Jesus was sent by god, but was not god in the flesh.

I was curious about what gay Christians experience because I like to understand people.

I admired her honesty about her struggle and how with God's help she was able to overcome this sin. I think her testimony shows how mere willpower is not enough, it is a spiritual issue not just a psychological/biological one.

Probably Christians who have never battled with sexual sins themselves are waaayyy too judgemental. I apologize for their insensitivity and lack of empathy, I know I was one of them as well until I hit my late teens (very bad heterosexual relationship).

Psychology plays a massive part into those kinds of issues. She had a troubled life and found herself in a troubled situation. it is not uncommon, I almost ended up down a very dark path. If it werent for the counselling I recieved I probably wouldnt even be here right now. I prayed for years and tried to seek healing through god, but the only healing I really received was from myself with the help of a psychologist.

 

[elephunky]

You've asked a kind of amorphous question, so I have to guess about how to respond. A lot of your Christian experience differs from mine. It was never about rules for me, and of course my church has no problem with gays or interracial marriage. For me Christianity was always about admiring Jesus, trying to follow him, caring about other people, prayer and worship.

But your experience isn't that unusual. There are lots of varieties of Christianity that I consider unhealthy, and there can also be churches that are perfectly OK, but not for certain people. Some people in your situation end up coming back to Christianity; some don't.

It seems to me that the key is your reaction to Jesus. All the Christians I know read the Gospels and say "YES! I really see God in him, and I want to live like that." Specific doctrines and "repressive" attitudes can be negotiated, but if you don't see God speaking to you through Jesus's life and teachings, you should probably remain non-Christian.

It's fine to be a seeker, but in the end you'll probably want to adopt some specific discipline (my favorite outside Biblical religion would be Buddhism), since spiritual development normally requires commitment and self-discipline.

What kind of church or group did you belong to (just out of curiosity).

For me, God is greater than Jesus. I see Jesus as a holy messenger, if you will. These are things I was asking about before I finally gave up on christianity alltogether because I felt like I was the only one that thought this.

I identify as seeker because I am not sure if I belong with a particular path due to my eclectic beliefs. I hope to find a "spiritual home". Im not sure if uniterianism is classed as christian, but my beliefs seem to match theirs more than any others to be honest. I identified as pagan for a while because I held a lot of the nature based beliefs, and paganism itself can be quite eclectic. But I stepped away from that label because i felt that the picture wasnt complete and it didnt really allow for a belief in the christian god.

 

[joey_downunder]

Links about Unitarian Universalism:
What is Unitarianism? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Unitarian Universalism
Extremely incompatible with the Jesus Christ of the bible.

 

[elephunky]

Links about Unitarian Universalism:
What is Unitarianism? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Unitarian Universalism
Extremely incompatible with the Jesus Christ of the bible.

I had a quick look at those links, it really depends on the church I think as it is constantly evolving.

I listen to a podcast of one particular uniterian church that actually talk stories from the bible and the difference between the real jesus and this fluffed up version you hear so much about.

Also, from my understanding of talking with a particular unitarian...there is the belief that God and Jesus are connected but not the same if that makes sense. This reflects the beliefs I have had for years.

Also, unitarianism is different from uniterian universalism.

You seem to place a lot of focus on Jesus if you dont mind me saying, do you put him above god or on the same level as god?

 

[joey_downunder]

Yes I do because Jesus was/is an actual person who claimed He was God (not a mere abstract concept or complicated mythical being) - any serious historian will admit he existed.

Disprove Jesus existed/ rose from the dead and Christianity would cease to exist.
http://www.tektonics.org/mainhub.html

Example where Jews understood Jesus was claiming to be God: john 8:48-59- they knew what God said to Mosesexodus 3:13-15, that's why they wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy - the one person who *never* sinned.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

As far as polygamy goes, I will defer to Jesus:

He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” - Matt 19:8-9

I see no room for polygamy in there.

That's because Jesus was not anywhere in that context addressing the number of wives a man may have. He was addressing the question about divorce. They are not one and the same.

It's true the Lord gave to Adam one wife, and that makes perfect sense because to have done otherwise would have introduced MANY problems for the human race. Monogenism was God's purpose for giving Adam one wife. And THEN, the Lord gave another man plural wives later on (king David).

What are we left with? Simply stated: The Lord gave one wife to most men, and several to others. That speaks of His sovereignty over marriage and its definition. Picking out just one area of scripture at the exclusion of all others, and applying eisegetic tampering is highly suspect at best.

BTW

 

[elephunky]

Yes I do because Jesus was/is an actual person who claimed He was God (not a mere abstract concept or complicated mythical being) - any serious historian will admit he existed.

Disprove Jesus existed/ rose from the dead and Christianity would cease to exist.
http://www.tektonics.org/mainhub.html

Example where Jews understood Jesus was claiming to be God: john 8:48-59- they knew what God said to Mosesexodus 3:13-15, that's why they wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy - the one person who *never* sinned.

I believe Jesus was an actual person too. However I do not agree with worshipping him or placing him above god.

 

[joey_downunder]

I believe Jesus was an actual person too. However I do not agree with worshipping him or placing him above god.

Jesus certainly knows what is in your heart and everybody else's. Jesus knew what was in the Pharisees' hearts as well. mark 2:1-12 Who else but God is capable of that?
Jeff Cook: Jesus and Desire

 

[elephunky]

Jesus certainly knows what is in your heart and everybody else's. Jesus knew what was in the Pharisees' hearts as well. mark 2:1-12 Who else but God is capable of that?
Jeff Cook: Jesus and Desire

That he does, which is why I see no reason to say one thing and feel another.

 

[joey_downunder]

RE your belief that Jesus isn't really God: do you currently have an opinion closer to the Muslims (Jesus was a mere man/ prophet) or Arians (Jesus first created being/lesser god- Jehovah's Witnesses a modern version)?

I have noticed several times you have said "I believe" as if that cancels out what the bible/mainstream Christian theology specifically says, makes it null and void, not applicable to you etc.

Do you really think yours or anyone else's personal belief/non-belief negates or outranks what Jesus thought about Himself?

Did Jesus always tell the truth (including about Himself) - YES or NO?

 

[elephunky]

RE your belief that Jesus isn't really God: do you currently have an opinion closer to the Muslims (Jesus was a mere man/ prophet) or Arians (Jesus first created being/lesser god- Jehovah's Witnesses a modern version)?

I have noticed several times you have said "I believe" as if that cancels out what the bible/mainstream Christian theology specifically says, makes it null and void, not applicable to you etc.

Do you really think yours or anyone else's personal belief/non-belief negates or outranks what Jesus thought about Himself?

Did Jesus always tell the truth (including about Himself) - YES or NO?

The easiest way to respond to this is to show you what I believe based on the main points that the unitarians also believe that I have seen.

- One God and the oneness or unity of God.
- The life and teachings of Jesus Christ constitute the exemplar model for living one's own life.
- Reason, rational thought, science, and philosophy coexist with faith in God.
- Humans have the ability to exercise free will in a responsible, constructive and ethical manner with the assistance of religion.
- Human nature in its present condition is neither inherently corrupt nor depraved (see original Sin), but capable of both good and evil, as God intended.
- No religion can claim an absolute monopoly on the Holy Spirit or theological truth.
- Though the authors of the Bible were inspired by God, they were humans and therefore subject to human error.

 

[joey_downunder]

OK, one question:
if you were a journalist having to report on an incredible story who would you choose to interview:

*a direct witness, or if not available (e.g. witness had died) someone who had heard the story for themselves from that very same witness and written down everything that happened soon after that event had occurred while the memory was still very fresh, OR

* a friend of a friend of a cousin of a friend who lived on the other side of the world who had decided to leave out the really weird elements because they didn't sound "logical" or feasible enough to them personally e.g. "hasn't happened before or since that alleged event, can't be recreated in a laboratory, therefore it didn't happen..." kind of logic

 

[elephunky]

OK, one question:
if you were a journalist having to report on an incredible story who would you choose to interview:

*a direct witness, or if not available (e.g. witness had died) someone who had heard the story for themselves from that very same witness and written down everything that happened soon after that event had occurred while the memory was still very fresh, OR

* a friend of a friend of a cousin of a friend who lived on the other side of the world who had decided to leave out the really weird elements because they didn't sound "logical" or feasible enough to them personally e.g. "hasn't happened before or since that alleged event, can't be recreated in a laboratory, therefore it didn't happen..." kind of logic

I see what you are getting at, I am not a fool. Your examples are not exactly accurate to the situation you are comparing it to either.