• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

A non-argumentative hillsong question

Hi guys, I was reading in the paper (The Australian) about how a lot of money given to Hillsong for charitable work went into personal salaries, would any of you (Hillsong supporters/members) be able to explain to me the real situation? The news story sounded really bad on the surface but I find it very hard to believe that, despite what the paper implies, Hillsong is corrupt - the story wasn't exactly subjective...Can any of you guys tell me the bigger picture?

This isn't a thread for a debate about the pros/cons of Hillsong, I'm just wondering what the real story is.
Thanks everyone! (and have a good recording)
 

exwitchoz

Active Member
Jan 1, 2006
84
6
64
Bunbury
Visit site
✟236.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
Yeah I'd like to get an answer to that question to...

I'm on the other side of the country so it's not exactly like I can just pop on over to check out the situation myself...

...but when i see stuff like this in the newspaper it certainly makes me wonder if there IS a problem there...

Department did not verify Hillsong references

A FEDERAL department failed to check whether an Aboriginal group, named by the Hillsong church in a grant application, supported the project.

The church's charitable arm, Hillsong Emerge, has been stripped of a $414,479 federal grant after claims that it obtained the funds by deceiving the Aboriginal community that was supposed to benefit from it.
Hillsong Emerge first applied for a grant of almost $500,000 with the support of the Riverstone Aboriginal Community Association, in Sydney's northwestern suburbs.

It withdrew the application and submitted a second, which led to its being granted $414,479 in August last year - a grant announced by John Howard.

But the second grant application used letters of support and ideas from RACA, allegedly without the permission of the indigenous body.

Attorney-General's Department assistant secretary Dianne Heriot told a Senate estimates hearing yesterday that the department looked for evidence of local partnerships with indigenous groups.

But asked by Labor senator Trish Crossin whether the reference letters were verified in some way, Dr Heriot said: "We accept the letters, Senator."

Dr Heriot said other checks were undertaken on the eligibility of the organisation, the nature of the project, local need and previous applications for funding.

The hearing was told the department became aware of problems with the grant application through gossip, and asked for a meeting with Hillsong and its partners in the project.

A meeting in October revealed that RACA was disenchanted with the project, and the next month NSW state Labor MP Ian West claimed in parliament that Hillsong Emerge misused the Riverstone Aboriginal community to get taxpayers' money for its own purposes.

When Hillsong Emerge did not reply to two letters from the department in December and January querying whether the project could be delivered, a decision was made to withdraw the grant on February 1.

RACA spokeswoman Vilma Ryan said the events in federal parliament showed Hillsong Emerge "can't be trusted to work with indigenous communities". "The federal Government needs to explain why it never checked up on statements made in the Hillsong Emerge application.

"We call on Hillsong Emerge to come clean on this whole matter. Come on, Hillsong Emerge. What's the story? Are you big enough to apologise?"

A spokeswoman for Hillsong did not return calls.
AAP, Ean Higgins

Hillsong dumped from funding arrangement

The Hillsong Church's benevolent arm has been dumped from a second federal funding relationship amid claims it spent indigenous development grants on itself, rather than on the Aboriginal entrepreneurs for whom it was intended.

Indigenous Business Australia (IBA) has announced it would cease funding a "micro-enterprise development" program that paid Hillsong Emerge $965,421 to administer $280,000 in loans, The Australian newspaper reports.

The news comes after Hillsong Emerge was stripped of a $414,479 grant for crime prevention after claims it obtained the funds by deceiving the Aboriginal community that was supposed to benefit from it.
NSW Labor MP Ian West said IBA's decision to stop funding the program was "a good start".

"IBA and taxpayers shouldn't fund Hillsong's hubs either - we should ask for our money back," he was quoted as saying.

Hillsong spokeswoman Maria Ieroianni told the paper Hillsong Emerge respected IBA's decision to terminate the funding relationship.

Can anyone shed any light on what IS actually going on?
 
Upvote 0

grateful heart

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2005
888
25
NSW
✟23,677.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Hi there
I can shed light of it

Seeing I know the head of Emerge i think i can shed some light on the subject, Money has not been misused at all unfortunately as you know certain media and political types like to stretch the truth and some are out right lies.
Aboriginal housing pulled out on a total unrelated issue and because the application for the grant included them in the proposal Emerge had to pull it because it would be unethical to continue so they withdrew it it wasnt used to pay salaries , the indenginous body changed its mind and wanted more for other things that the application didnt cater for , then the quarreling began, thats when the media took it out of proportion,

Hillsong Church funds Emerge not the other way around, ask any local about what the Church has done in the community, the fact that our Church has NEVER been graffitied says something, if you want i can post the official churches response if you like but i do know more than the average person becuase im good friends with them, does this make sense?
 
Upvote 0
G

GdayJim

Guest
grateful heart said:
Hi there
I can shed light of it

Seeing I know the head of Emerge i think i can shed some light on the subject, Money has not been misused at all unfortunately as you know certain media and political types like to stretch the truth and some are out right lies.

Thats interesting.

Is Hillsong going to take the journalist of that report to court for defamation?

If not, why?

Aboriginal housing pulled out on a total unrelated issue and because the application for the grant included them in the proposal. Emerge had to pull it because it would be unethical to continue so they withdrew it it wasnt used to pay salaries.

What is the underlining "unethical" foundation?

Was it the inconsistancy of the Aboriginal community, or the Aboriginals request to forge deals for more dollars?

the indenginous body changed its mind and wanted more for other things that the application didnt cater for , then the quarreling began, thats when the media took it out of proportion,

What were some of the things that the Aboriginal Community want that began the disruption?




Hillsong Church funds Emerge not the other way around, ask any local about what the Church has done in the community, the fact that our Church has NEVER been graffitied says something, if you want i can post the official churches response if you like but i do know more than the average person becuase im good friends with them, does this make sense?

Ok, could you post those official response, and let us know more about the other information?

I too only read three articles of it of the time. There wasnt much, and I couldn't find much information to combat those allegations from the media.
 
Upvote 0

exwitchoz

Active Member
Jan 1, 2006
84
6
64
Bunbury
Visit site
✟236.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
grateful heart said:
Ahhhh Jim of course you would post here , im sure you hate Hillsong more than Lucifer himself , if anyone wants to know more PM me as i know the full true story but i know anything i put here Jim will attack it no matter how truthful it is .........
Why then did Hillsong get dumped by the Government???

I'm confused here GH...

If what you say is true then all the points Jim brought up are quite valid and just sweeping them under the carpet with blanket statements is NOT an answer...

Unfortuneately there is a strong tendency to do just that within the Chhurch... sweep things under the carpet... rather than acknowledge errors and correct them...

The Catholic Church's (amongst others) dealings with the issue of child abuse in it's intitutions is but one example... From what I have seen to date this sadly looks like becoming another...

I just want to get at the truth here...

If you know the head of Hillsong Emerge so well perhaps you can answer Jim's questions - as they are quite valid and deserve an answer if Hillsong is to be vindicated in all this - or provide some evidence that the claims made in Parliament are wrong rather than just poo-pooing the whole thing out of hand...

Such an approach and response as given so far certainly doesn't convince me that there is no fire under all the smoke... In fact it makes me deeply suspicious that there IS "something rotten in the state of Denmark" after all...
 
Upvote 0
G

GdayJim

Guest
GH, I have a problem with Hillsongs Theology.

But I stay out of bashing hillsong when it comes to politics. Because I'm not familiar with politics enough to debate it.

Hence answer it properley, disregard the previous comments in the other threads, and answer the questions. (And please don't spin this, because it also makes other Christians look bad)

____

ExwitchOz,

I suspect GH will be calling Emerge up in the morning for more answers. I guess it's just a matter of being patient.
 
Upvote 0

grateful heart

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2005
888
25
NSW
✟23,677.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Why then did Hillsong get dumped by the Government???
They didnt get dumped they pulled out of it because they had to


I refuse to answer any questions on the public forum due to certain people prejeduices, if you want answers like i said you can PM me, i do have the answers but refuse to answer here
 
Upvote 0

The Bad Templar

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2004
945
44
51
✟16,341.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
exwitchoz said:
Such an approach and response as given so far certainly doesn't convince me that there is no fire under all the smoke... In fact it makes me deeply suspicious that there IS "something rotten in the state of Denmark" after all...

You can say that again exwitch.

But then again, it's probably the government's fault, no.... the Opposition's, no....the media's, ....no it's the greedy blackfella's fault.... or it's a conspiracy by the Jensen family...

It couldn't be Hillsong's fault....

Church 'spent indigenous grants on staff'


By Ean Higgins


The Australian
February 13, 2006





INDIGENOUS development grants to Hillsong's benevolent arm have gone almost entirely to employing and providing offices for church staff, with only a trickle reaching Aborigines.
In one case, Hillsong Emerge spent $315,000 in federal funds employing seven of its own staff in Sydney to administer a "micro-credit" project that made only six loans to Aborigines worth an average of $2856 each.
Hillsong also failed to enable a single Aborigine to become self-employed under a $610,968 federal grant to encourage indigenous entrepreneurship.
The revelations are contained in answers from senator Eric Abetz, representing Employment Minister Kevin Andrews, to a detailed series of questions on notice from Labor's indigenous affairs spokesman, Chris Evans.
They show that far more funds are spent on Hillsong staffers and administration than actual service delivery. One federal grant paid $965,421 to Hillsong Emerge to administer $280,000 in loan funds.
Senator Abetz said that when it came to the $610,968 Hillsong Emerge received to run indigenous "enterprise hubs" in Redfern and Mount Druitt in Sydney, Hillsong had advised that "to their knowledge, none of those assisted have moved to full self-employment".

When The Australian visited the Redfern "enterprise hub" in December, it found flyers in the foyer encouraging local businesses to pay up to $1800 to advertise in the Christian Business Directory published by Hillsong Emerge, but no information on how Hillsong could help Aborigines.
The $610,968 grant was approved in just three weeks, and Hillsong faced no competition since it was the only applicant.
Labor figures have expressed suspicions about the grants and the Liberal Party's links with Hillsong.
Liberal MP Louise Markus, a Hillsong church member and former Hillsong Emerge officer who narrowly won the outer Sydney seat of Greenway from Labor at the last election with the help of Hillsong Church members, wrote a letter of support for a separate $414,000 grant.
The Federal Government will come under further pressure this week, with the Opposition planning to grill it over Hillsong at Senate estimates hearings.
Senator Evans yesterday told The Australian that the micro-credit program, "has so far been deeply flawed in its execution".
"If the Government's agenda is to help disadvantaged indigenous Australians start their own businesses then Hillsong needs to be held accountable for what is, on the face of it, a very poor outcome," he said. Senator Evans said there had been "no transparent, public evaluation of the pilot program - just academic articles before it began and Hillsong promotional material".
A portion of the $610,968 grant was devoted to Hillsong's Shine program, an activity directly associated with Hillsong Church.
In Senator Abetz's answers, he said part of the Shine Basic program "focuses on values of worth, strength and purpose" and includes "journalling", described by the senator as "writing down dreams, goals, plans".
Hillsong Emerge has repeatedly refused to answer questions about its indigenous development programs.
Yesterday, spokeswoman Maria Ieroianni referred all questions to the federal body responsible for administering the grants, Indigenous Business Australia.
IBA's deputy general manager, Ian Myers, said the funds covered pilot programs, that the programs had been reviewed, and that a decision would be taken by IBA's board as to whether to proceed with further funding.
 
Upvote 0

The Bad Templar

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2004
945
44
51
✟16,341.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
grateful heart said:
They didnt get dumped they pulled out of it because they had to

Wait a sec... did Senator Ellison mislead the parliament by saying that the government pulled the offer... and not the other way around....

The Australian Feb 14....

But answering questions on notice from Opposition indigenous affairs spokesman Chris Evans, Senator Ellison said the offer of the grant - announced in August with some fanfare by Mr Howard - had been axed.
Senator Ellison said his department had recently asked Hillsong Emerge for "details of how the partnership proposed for the project would operate". "On 1 February, 2006, the department wrote to Hillsong Emerge Ltd advising them theoffer has been withdrawn," hesaid. A spokeswoman for Senator Ellison said the department had withdrawn the offer because Hillsong was "unable to deliver the project as originally proposed".

Can't blame The Australian for this one... they are merely reporting verbatum what the minister said.
 
Upvote 0

grateful heart

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2005
888
25
NSW
✟23,677.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
ahhh and this is why i wont answer in public, because no matter what i say there will be accusations that you get from, yep thats right the media ..... if you think Hillsong is bad and at fault , no probs think away if your genuinely wanting to know PM me
 
Upvote 0

The Bad Templar

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2004
945
44
51
✟16,341.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Oh, come on GH. Don't be like that. I was merely pointing out an inconsistency.

I've read the Hillsong response and find it grossly inadequate spin-doctoring.

Here's your chance to right the wrongs and get the truth out publically... I'm willing to listen. :holy:


Please note: I do not have a history of Hillsong-bashing.
 
Upvote 0
G

GdayJim

Guest
ExWitchOz, Bad Templar...and other guys wanting to know more.

Can you post out, whether you think his responses are coherent and objective. You don't need to tell me what the post is about. I just want to know whether GH has valid information to confirm that Hillsong isn't in violation of government grants.

I'll trust you guys on the topic.

I'd like to have this layed this out asasp, then I can get back to the hillsong theology.
 
Upvote 0

The Bad Templar

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2004
945
44
51
✟16,341.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
G'dayJim,

I'm not going to question anyone's reliablilty but just look at the public record. There is enough raw data (financial statistics) and comment from primary sources (parliament, etc) to get a reasonable picture without blaming a media conspiracy.

I think there are separate issues to look a here:-

1) The Riverstone Aboriginal Community Association's reaction has been underplayed on this thread as a beat-up orchestrated by the media. However, they have been very explicit in their denounciation of Hillsong...

RACA spokeswoman Vilma Ryan says Hillsong Emerge owes her organisation a public apology.
"They didn't think we had a brain in our head," she said.
"But we've been in the game a long time now and we've been fighting all this kind of crap for years - you know being used and abused and researched."
She says her organisation was misled.
"They've treated us unjustly, they've used us and used all of our ideas and we don't take kindly to that," she said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/items/200602/1570064.htm?sydney

Whatever the case is... it's RACA's word versus Hillsong's.

2) As I pointed out earlier... Hillsong didn't back-out as stated on this thread but Minister Ellison told parliament that the government pulled the funding.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18140191-1242,00.html

3) The other issue is the extraordinarily-high cut of grant-funding that Hillsong takes as administrative costs in proportion to the actual end result.

An example, is the second funding allocation which has been withdrawn from Hillsong in which they were allocated $965,421 to administer $280,000 in loans.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=87323

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18140191-1242,00.html
 
Upvote 0

grateful heart

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2005
888
25
NSW
✟23,677.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
In response to recent misinformed media coverage relating to Hillsong Church and its community arm, Hillsong Emerge, we wish to state the following:
  1. We believe we have become the scapegoat in a political game.
  2. We reject categorically the claims that have been made against Hillsong by a national newspaper who seem to be on a witch-hunt with no regard to the facts. These are serious allegations of an unethical, immoral and in some cases, illegal nature which are false and cannot be substantiated. We believe this is a weak attempt to discredit and slur the good name of a community organisation that is genuinely committed to providing help, support and answers to people.
  3. According to all communication we have had with the Attorney General's Department, Indigenous Business Australia (IBA) and the Department of Employment and Workplace Relations, Hillsong Emerge has met all the objectives of the projects it has received funding for, and we have always met the reporting and governance criteria outlined by the government. In fact, a recent letter from IBA regarding the Micro-enterprise Development (MED) pilot we conducted on their behalf stated: "The IBA Board were pleased with the learning achieved from the pilot." The results of this pilot were also audited by KPMG.
  4. Our commitment to helping people in our community has never been dependent on government grants. We remain resolute in our intention to provide community services to the marginalised and disenfranchised. Sadly, the ultimate losers from funding withdrawal are the very people who need help and support.
  5. Hillsong Emerge enjoys a strong relationship with a number of Indigenous and non-Indigenous organisations, and has done so for many years. These relationships include Balkanu in Cape York and the Aboriginal Housing Company in Redfern. In a statement released this week, Gerhardt Pearson, CEO Balkanu stated:

    "Balkanu's longstanding relationship with Hillsong Emerge is a formal, highly effective and close partnership that delivers essential Micro Enterprise Development services to the indigenous people of Cape York. Balkanu's partnership with Hillsong Emerge is based on mutual respect, open communication and professionalism. In Cape York, Hillsong Emerge has proven that it can deliver essential business services and produce good outcomes for indigenous people and the communities."

  6. Even though there are those who have attacked us, a number of politicians and government officials have come out in our defence, unsurprisingly this has not been reflected by the media.
I do have more info but like i said i will only say it via PM and not by certain people who already have a witch hunt in regards to Hillsong
 
Upvote 0
G

GdayJim

Guest
I was planning to quote GH properley.

Then I realised. Theres no point.

I'm still waiting for anyone to confirm whether his statements are actually adequate.

I do however, know that parts of Point 5 is accurate. I have heard from my end of the ministry, of aboriginals recieving help from Hillsingers in the Redfern and SurryHills area. But thats as far as I'd go.

Sarcastically :p
As for the rest of the points, I really feel very intimidated by the richness of information that it provided on the situation.

People my agree with me on this, but it was not at all defensive and gave quite clear explanations of the corruption of the media and the labor government and their scheme and conspiracy.

And in those short statements, I gathered so much compressed, ENCRYPTED, Concise evidence to sentence any anti-hillsong body supporters to a life of falsehood.

I'm now seeing the full picture, of this "Witch Hunt" which consists of the hunt of non-existing taxpayer money, going into a community so that it could preserve the Aboriginal Community by not educating them or let them loose in the world where they can make money to live.

And theres so much evidence to support your claim of a "Witch Hunt", I'm stoked to being so retarded that it took me a while to understand what you're really on about.

My apologies for mis-understanding the new spin-encryption technology patented by Hillsong Pty Ltd.
 
Upvote 0

grateful heart

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2005
888
25
NSW
✟23,677.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
GH,

I'm deeply suspecious that not even one person has admitted that your claim is genuine.

And also, no one has actually posted out, saying your claim is inadequate.


Have you been replying those PMs?
That is because i have asked them not to reply on the posts and post anything, i have answered 99% of all questions i have received
 
Upvote 0

shout2thelord

adopted aussie :)
Oct 11, 2002
1,726
29
41
crewe, england
Visit site
✟2,215.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
RACA The Real Story

15 February 2006

Allegations by the Riverstone Aboriginal Community Association (RACA) that Hillsong Emerge has in someway 'used' them to secure funding under the Federal Government's Crime Prevention Strategy are untrue and without foundation.

This is an ongoing and systematic attack by an Indigenous community organisation, in collaboration with political forces and the Australian newspaper, to vilify Hillsong and its extensive community work.

Hillsong Emerge has worked in the Blacktown Local Government Area for close to 20 years, and over this time has developed strong partnerships with local community organisations and the wider community.

The partnership of local community agencies led by Hillsong Emerge invited RACA to be included in an application for funding under the Attorney General's Community Crime Prevention Partnership at the final community consultation meeting in December 2004, an invitation they accepted by providing the partnership with a letter of endorsement.

RACA provided Hillsong Emerge with program suggestions to be included in the final application and these were incorporated into the proposed budget of the application. This original application was then submitted as two applications, one targeting youth and the other being a more generic neighbourhood approach. The content was the same and budget line items identical to those outlined in the original submission. The youth specific application was successful.

In August 2005, the Prime Minister announced that Hillsong Emerge and its partners were successful in their funding application. Up to the announcement, the Attorney-General's Department had not advised anyone, including Hillsong Emerge, of the successful application. We fail to understand how RACA could accuse us of withholding information from them, when in fact this information was unavailable to us.

In the weeks following, representatives from Hillsong Emerge met with RACA on three occasions to address their concerns over their claim of not being recognised, specifically at the announcement event.

Attempts were made to alleviate their concerns and confirm Hillsong Emerge's recognition of RACA as a community partner in this project.

RACA made a number of demands to Hillsong Emerge, the community partners and the Attorney-General's Department in order to remain committed to this partnership.

Many attempts were made to meet those demands, including agreeing to speak to other community partners and the AG's Department to support RACA becoming the lead agency in the Riverstone component of the project. The first step in this undertaking was for RACA to organise to meet the other Riverstone partners, which it failed to do.

Allegations that funds were offered to RACA to silence them are nonsense, in fact RACA dictated the letter signed by Mr Coleman demanding that RACA be responsible for the distribution of funds to the Riverstone component of the project. It was signed as an act of good faith to demonstrate Hillsong Emerge's willingness to co-operate with RACA as an equal partner. It was stated at this meeting that this was subject to the Attorney-General Department's approval and the agreement of each of the other partners. A copy of this letter was forwarded to the Attorney-General's department following this meeting.

Hillsong Emerge and the other community partners made attempts to accommodate RACA's requests in an effort to prevent the project stalling. This came even before contracts had been exchanged with the Attorney-General's Department.

The remaining six partners, including the Attorney-General's Department, were committed to consulting further to seek a way forward, however all efforts to include RACA were unsuccessful.

We were informed by the Assistant Secretary (Community Safety and Justice Branch) with the Attorney-General's Department, Dr Diane Heriot, in a letter dated 1 February 2006 that they had to withdraw the funding offer due to the change in the original partnership structure. Her letter stated:

"I note the difficulties Hillsong Emerge Ltd has experienced with achieving the partnership described in the funding application. However, given the time that has passed since the funding offer was announced in August 2005, and your attempts to finalise the partnership have not been successful, it would appear that the partnership outlined in your application cannot be realised.

As the offer was contingent on the partnership operating, I regret that the Attorney-General's Department is left with no further option but to withdraw the offer of National Community Crime Preventions Programme (NCCPP) funding."

The Attorney-General's Department has encouraged Hillsong Emerge and the remaining partners to reapply in future funding rounds.
 
Upvote 0