A Nestorian brushfire

[Oblio]

Sometimes I feel like I am playing Whack A Mole

Yet another resurgence of Nestorianism

 

[Philip]

Well, at least it is in Unorthodox Theology.

 

[MariaRegina]

Well, do they ever learn!

Or is it an exercise in futility?

I guess we win some and lose some.

 

[Oblio]

Well, at least it is in Unorthodox Theology.

I know. But it still amazes (and saddens) me.

 

[Kripost]

Not another thread debating about the meaning and implications of the title Theotokos! Arghh!

And as usual, it is presented as a Catholic vs. Protestant issue.

 

[xenia]

At my old Evangelical church a speaker came who said that God did not even use one of Mary's eggs! It's as if Mary was some kind of tube or something. That's an extreme over-reaction to the veneration of Mary!

Love, Xenia

 

[Reader Nilus]

Chris nothing amazes me anymore that I have been on various Internet boards about what passes for Christianity. Once the evangelicals dissed Tradition, they have been coming up with the old heresies and thinking they have the real gospel!

 

[NewToLife]

I too have had these debates many times, certain things always seem to flow one from another, once Mary is denied the title 'Mother of God' there are a number of heresies that seem to flow quite freely, Nestorianism amongst them, often combined with a generous dose of Modalism for good measure.

Those espousing a Nestorian view almost always deny that they are splitting Christ into two separate persons, perhaps we should not be too surprised though given that Nestorius himself always used ( and seems to have believed ) the same arguement.

Plus ca change!

 

[countrymousenc]

People still believe what they want to believe.

 

[Oblio]

People still believe what they want to believe.

And the Rock Man said, "Say, what's happening with you boys. You look like you pretty shook up. You been goofin' with the bees?" And Oblio told the Rock Man that they were banished and asked him whether or not this was the Pointless Forest.

The Rock Man said, "Say, babe, there ain't nothing pointless about this gig. The thing is you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear. You dig? Did you ever see Paris?"

"No."

"Did you ever see New Deli?"

"No."

"Well, that's it. You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear." And with that the Rock Man fell soundly asleep, leaving Oblio and Arrow once again all alone. So they continued on through the Pointless Forest until, suddenly, Arrow, who had been running a few yards ahead of Oblio, disappeared in to a hole--the Point of No Return.

 

[KennySe]

Not only Nestorianism, but also Docetism.

Sometimes by the same poster.

-----

Sometimes a poster says that:
Jesus is fully God and fully man.
Jesus was born of Mary, but God wasn't.

To which we ask: Is Jesus God or not? Where was His divinity while he was being born?

Sometimes a poster says that:
Jesus is fully God and fully man.
Jesus manifested in the flesh.

To which we ask: Is Jesus either fully man or a manifestation of a man?

Mama mia.

 

[katherine2001]

I have to wonder which Protestant denominations that Tom and A. Believer are from. I can never remember in my 20 years as a Baptist being taught the things that they believe about Christ. I was taught that Christ was fully human and fully divine and that the two natures are inseparable. I know now that the Baptists (and most Protestant denominations) fully understand all the implications of the Incarnation, but I certainly wasn't taught what these people are arguing.

 

[Oblio]

I have to wonder which Protestant denominations that Tom and A. Believer are from.

I have wondered about this myself WRT Tom. My guess is, and that is all I can do as he has not profiled his denomination, is that he is another roll your own Christian; Jesus, Bible and Me - JBM (tm)

 

[Lotar]

A. Believer is most likely Orthodox Presbyterian, or something similiar. Her point was that she thought the term was inappropriate because of implications, not that it was wrong. I can see her point, though I don't agree with her.

 

[Nickolai]

I have to wonder which Protestant denominations that Tom and A. Believer are from. I can never remember in my 20 years as a Baptist being taught the things that they believe about Christ. I was taught that Christ was fully human and fully divine and that the two natures are inseparable. I know now that the Baptists (and most Protestant denominations) fully understand all the implications of the Incarnation, but I certainly wasn't taught what these people are arguing.

It seems that the longer a denomination goes without following Tradition the more screwed up it's beliefs get. More and more protestants have been denying the Trinity lately. As well as the inseperable natures of Jesus Christ.

 

[katherine2001]

And, of course, I meant to say that most Baptists and other Protestant denominations don't fully understand the implications of the Incarnation. Nikolai, you are right. Once the indiviual becomes the authority on the interpretation of scripture and what truth is, we are in a lot of trouble. It's amazing how they can believe in the total depravity of man but at the same time have total faith in their intellect.

 

[Oblio]

And, of course, I meant to say that most Baptists and other Protestant denominations don't fully understand the implications of the Incarnation.

I can say as a former Baptist that this is probably true to a large extent. In fact, I would have several years ago stated just the same as some do here, in Murrayesque fashion: It just doesn't matter ! Now that I have had a drink of the Truth, I can never go back to those days when I was only told part of God's word

 

[Polycarp1]

You know, I'd love to see the "classic" heresies -- Nestorianism, Arianism, Modalism, Monarchism, etc., defined briefly in modern language, and a poll that lists those definitions without identifying the heresy, with Nicene-Chalcedonian orthodoxy thrown in as just one poll option, conducted in a forum frequented by Christians of various denominations. I think the results would be startling!

I got flamed on another board by a member here who also posts there for defending "Truly God and truly man" -- it was an insult to His divinity to suggest that He was human as well, according to her! (I bet Oblio remembers the incident.)

 

[Philip]

Not a bad idea. Do you mind if I take it?

 

[ufonium2]

When I was young, my parents told me about their mistakes and pointed out the mistakes of others in hopes that I wouldn't repeat them. So, because my mom partied really hard her first semester of college and flunked out, I decided not to drink at all my first semester. My uncle did so many drugs he's now partially paralyzed, and because of that I don't do drugs. I could go on and on about the stupid things some family members have done that inspired me to do the exact opposite, but the point is I learned from the mistakes of others. I didn't have to try drugs to realize they can seriously mess you up, my uncle did that for me.

If I were following the Evangelical mindset, I would ignore the "tradition" of my family, and would have to try everything in order to figure out what works and what doesn't. So, I would end up making tons of stupid decisions that could have been avoided by paying attention to what others had done before me. That's how it works with Christianity too. They end up regurgitating the same old heresies every generation and living with an incorrect heretical view until (hopefully) someone gets through to them and points out (yet again) the flaws in their view, at which point they probably move on to another heretical idea about something else.

Some kids don't have parents to say "See how poorly that turned out? Don't do it." and some Christians don't have Tradition to say "Someone expressed those thoughts 1500 years ago, they were wrong then and they are still wrong now and here is why." It's a shame, their life would be so much better if they would just listen to their elders.