Their hope was misbegotten; it could never turn out the way they imagined because unlike the angels in heaven human beings on earth are not good at submission.
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Their hope was misbegotten; it could never turn out the way they imagined because unlike the angels in heaven human beings on earth are not good at submission.Don't get me wrong. I just think you have to be realistic. The Reformation hasn't turned out the way the Reformers hoped.
I have many contacts in Communist China, including two daughters-in-law who are Chinese with relatives still back in China. Before the bamboo curtain went up there was estimated to be about 2 million Christians in China, but the Communist went through sending all the Christian Chinese leadership for reeducation, all churches were closed and foreign missionaries were kicked out. The Communists liked the moral, ethical, obedience, servitude message of the Bible, so they eventually had 90 million printed up and sold for just a fraction of the cost at registered Christian Churches but did not allow any other Christian religious books (except, they did allow the Catholic Catechism book, but few sold). Up until a few years ago they could buy Bibles online, but not commentaries.Having a bible is part of the problem, the bible needs to be interpreted and leaving that task to individuals to do for themselves leads to aberrations in faith.
Their hope was misbegotten; it could never turn out the way they imagined because unlike the angels in heaven human beings on earth are not good at submission.
I have many contacts in Communist China, including two daughters-in-law who are Chinese with relatives still back in China. Before the bamboo curtain went up there was estimated to be about 2 million Christians in China, but the Communist went through sending all the Christian Chinese leadership for reeducation, all churches were closed and foreign missionaries were kicked out. The Communists liked the moral, ethical, obedience, servitude message of the Bible, so they eventually had 90 million printed up and sold for just a fraction of the cost at registered Christian Churches but did not allow any other Christian religious books (except, they did allow the Catholic Catechism book, but few sold). Up until a few years ago they could buy Bibles online, but not commentaries.
Prior to the bamboo curtain coming down it was though Christianity was dead in China, but instead it had grown to an estimated 75 million unregistered Christians and thought to be as large as 175 million meeting in homes each Sunday these days, yet there is strong persecution.
I know, what some Chinese Christians teach from different places in China and it is a miracle to realize, they are all teaching the same doctrine without any cross communication, religious books other than the Bible, but we can thank to the Communist Government for that. The Communist made public a long list of what could not be taught in the registered Christian Churches which included: Christ is the son of God, Christ died for our sins, Christ rose from the dead, adult believer emersion water baptism, and so on. Since these unregistered Churches could not keep from breaking the law, they broke all the law, teaching all the doctrine not allowed and that makes them all alike.
Interesting comment about Erasmus, it appeared when I tapped the "reply" link, so I got to your post before you'd finished editing it, my apologies. My intended reply was (and still is) this:I don't think that is quite how I'd put it. The individualism of their era predisposed them to over-estimate their capacity to know truth. They also were not as informed as we are today about the nature of the Bible. Their biblical scholarship was very primitive.
It's ironic... I actually agree with Luther's objections to Erasmus's arguments for the time, but I think in today's world we could do with more Erasmus and less Luther.
Interesting comment about Erasmus, it appeared when I tapped the "reply" link, so I got to your post before you'd finished editing it, my apologies. My intended reply was (and still is) this:
While I agree that individualism and lack of important information led to an over estimate of their abilities with respect to discerning truth, I need to say that it was not truth alone that escaped their accurate apprehension. Submission also escaped it. Luther, and at least some among the other contemporaries who became founders of new faith movements, willingly submitted to what they perceived as God speaking in the scriptures they nevertheless did not submit to the Catholic Church's magisterium. Instead they instituted their own magisterium and later lamented how the new generations who arose after they had started the faith movements rejected the reformers magisterium and establish a new magisterium of their own. This is how submission was neglected. Human nature left to freely interpret the bible and choose what it "really means" will inevitably land on multiplicity of magisterial authorities, as long as submission is not accepted as the only way to preserve unity of some kind.
We can't trust anyone ... but Jesus. Certainly there are different interpretations of some scripture.Before there were newspapers and institutional people who we trust to vet information to certify it is true or at least thought to be true by those we hold in high regard, there was an individual responsibility to vet information for himself or for his family (if he was head of the household). Now we have just reached the tail end of the age of newspapers and trusted institutions and what are we to do? Shall we return to the middle ages approach?
In conjunction with this is the role of the Church because middle ages people trusted the church (in varying degrees) to vet information for its safety and truth whenever it dealt with matters of eternal life. Who do we trust now? Just ourselves? Or are there some institutions we trust and if so which organisations do we trust and are they really trustworthy?
What of the scriptures? We, as Christians, acknowledge them as the inspired oracles of God and as such as trustworthy but we must admit to ourselves that holy scripture is difficult to interpret at times, and even those passages that seem easy to interpret may contain allusions to past revelation and revelatory events or even to cultural "memes" that a modern reader doesn't understand or know. So despite the trust we invest in the scriptures we are left with a task of interpretation that is inherently complex, who do we trust to help us with the work of interpreting the holy scriptures? We might appeal to the Holy Spirit, and that is excellent, yet how can we know what he is saying or if it is he who is saying it? Many men and women have claimed the Holy Spirit told them such and such, are we obliged to believe them, and if not shall we be as sceptical of our own "leadings from the Holy Spirit"?
Who can we trust, if anyone?
Similar things have happened throughout history, with many bloody rebellions happening in the name of Christ. Christianity is growing the fastest in Iran right now.The question is rather, why the heck Chinese people (most of them) are for overthrowing their previoius ruler who and his wife are both claimed Christians? At one point, they are all for communism which simultaneously means China will have zero tolerance of religions. It remained people's choice.
In the 100 years before the ruling of communists, the death toll due to or led to by civil unrests and revolutions reached 100 million. Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, which is a rebellion disguised in the name of Christ, alone is responisble for the death of 70 million human lives. It doesn't stop there. Communist revolution is responsible for another serveral tens of million of death. There are more if taking into account the Japan invasion resulted by a weak China due to the series of civil unrests and civil wars.
It is said that the United Kingdom ever had 60 empirors in history but with only 1 civil war. However the Chinese have on average 20 civil wars per empiror. They overthrew their Christian president with a country of freedom of religion to establish a nation of communism, with rebelliousness. Who to blame? Any responsible government shall take rebellion into serioius control including the strict control of religions perhaps for the sake that not another 30 million human lives to be lost, as a typical death toll for a bloody revolution.
God once gave them a Christian nation, and they turned it into a communist country. That's what happened.
The middle ages Catholic Church did indeed have a great deal of "cruft" attached to it; it came from the exercise of secular power, wealth, and all the things that have always tended to corrupt people and institutional leadership of every kind. And it is without doubt true that God intended the upheaval of 16th century and following centuries to shake the cruft and as we can see from how matters transpired that a great deal of the cruft was dislodged. But we are alive in the twenty first century and the memory of things past ought not distort our vision of things present.I think Luther interpreted his life as being somewhat prophetic, that is how Lutherans understand him. I think it's possible to see Luther as a kind of judgement on the edifice of Christendom.
Regardless, I don't see myself becoming a Roman Catholic, for all sorts of reasons. I don't see history through that kind of romantic lens. The medieval church was rotten, far too top-heavy and authoritarian for its own good (not to mention, built upon mostly what turns out to be sand), and Biblicism hasn't really produced a holy, godly society ever, but I think we can discern new ways to hear God's voice in today's world.
The middle ages Catholic Church did indeed have a great deal of "cruft" attached to it; it came from the exercise of secular power, wealth, and all the things that have always tended to corrupt people and institutional leadership of every kind. And it is without doubt true that God intended the upheaval of 16th century and following centuries to shake the cruft and as we can see from how matters transpired that a great deal of the cruft was dislodged. But we are alive in the twenty first century and the memory of things past ought not distort our vision of things present.
Perhaps prayer for better unity is needed; if we desire it and if it is God's will, then let us be in conformity with God's intent.I agree. That's why I'm more than happy to accept Roman Catholics as Christians. However, I think there are limits to what is realistic or even desirable in terms of institutional unity between our churches.
Perhaps prayer for better unity is needed; if we desire it and if it is God's will, then let us be in conformity with God's intent.
Does your denomination have a closed table of the Lord?We already have unity in the sacraments: Baptism and the Lord's Supper. I know Catholics don't see it that way, of course, but we do.
At my church we do not pray for unity per se, but the pastor does acknowledge in our prayers that people from all around the world are praying together.
Does your denomination have a closed table of the Lord?
At least God allows choiceHaving a bible is part of the problem, the bible needs to be interpreted and leaving that task to individuals to do for themselves leads to aberrations in faith.
Would severe persecution help unit all Christians? You are left with what you are willing to die for, which may not be what is dividing us.Perhaps prayer for better unity is needed; if we desire it and if it is God's will, then let us be in conformity with God's intent.
Persecution may come, and it may divide the faithful from those who are not so faithful. It is not certain what would happen.Would severe persecution help unit all Christians? You are left with what you are willing to die for, which may not be what is dividing us.
Exactly. Humans are not known for their shunning of human politics in favour of an outside counter-culture. Even institutional Christianity shunned the Kingdom to harlot itself to the Roman Empire.It is not certain what would happen.
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