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A metaphysical question

drich0150

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First of all sorry for being so late with my response, I was pretty busy the last two days.
In the context of my initial question I would say that it just isn't that easy. I find it understandable that when we are looking at the world and realize that we are not even close to being able to grasp the incredible vastness of time, space and even of our own little speck of reality, it is tempting to relate it to a familiar character. Someone that is like us and thinks like us when we are at our best - I guess the term someone who created us in his image sums it up quite well. But in my opinion it doesn't do justice to what is going on (not that I have a clue what is going on). I can also understand that pondering about this place we all share creates an incredible sense of awe and fascination. I think that's what you would call spirituality (correct me if I'm wrong on this). I do feel this as well occasionally but I wouldn't give it that name. In essence it just doesn't seem to be that simple, whatever lead to us being here was very likely not something that we could even begin to understand. When I think about it and apply our human measurements to it, they just fail the minute I try. The idea that creation has to be something deliberate otherwise it would be somehow devalued for instance seems strange to me. Although I get that it is a very tempting thought at times that on a some level it all has to make sense, that just doesn't make it true. Purpose itself is a very human concept, no one else that we know of can assign it to anything so it is a strange thing to ask for the purpose of humanity. From my pov we give purpose to each other and there is no need for someone superior to do so. I find this thought very liberating, instead of having no purpose at all (which is often imputed to atheists) we can give our live whatever purpose we choose and at the same time receive it from and give it to others.
I guess I'm drifting here, to wrap it up what probably sets our perspectives apart at the deepest level is that I don't think that this is all about us. It doesn't have to be and it doesn't take away any of the beauty of existence even if it is just a coincidence (which is another human concept that probably doesn't apply).
Asked, and answered.

As I said earlier it would be stupid to attack something that could be said about many religious people while it couldn't be said about you. Thanks again for your time, I found you're answers very interesting. If you have any questions yourself, don't hesitate to ask.

I understand you POV, and there were some really good points made. If not for very specific events in my life I could easily have given myself to a personal philosophy such as your own. But, as I said I have seen, Heard and experienced too much to dismiss the "familiar Character" that has made Himself known to me.

One of the things I have learned in my time as a christian is that God gives us exactly what we personally need to establish and maintain a solid relationship with Him in a very real way. What may mean the world to me, may be pointed out to be a simple man's foolishness to another. If and when we should ever decide to seek God or personal "proof" of God then do not seek what you think to be a sign and/or a wonder from Him or any type of religion.

Just ask that your eyes be opened, so that you may see Him, your ears be open that you may Hear Him, and that your Heart be soften that you may change what He highlights in your life that needs to be changed so that your journey/experience may broaden. If you can ask this with a measure of sincerity, then let me warn you to hang on to something. When I did this my life completely turned upside down.
 
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eugler

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One of the things I have learned in my time as a christian is that God gives us exactly what we personally need to establish and maintain a solid relationship with Him in a very real way. What may mean the world to me, may be pointed out to be a simple man's foolishness to another. If and when we should ever decide to seek God or personal "proof" of God then do not seek what you think to be a sign and/or a wonder from Him or any type of religion.

Just ask that your eyes be opened, so that you may see Him, your ears be open that you may Hear Him, and that your Heart be soften that you may change what He highlights in your life that needs to be changed so that your journey/experience may broaden. If you can ask this with a measure of sincerity, then let me warn you to hang on to something. When I did this my life completely turned upside down.

O come on. Just open your eyes and ears to what is going on in the world, soften your heart to its beauty and the incredible suffering of humankind that is plainly out there to see for everyone. Try to broaden your journey/experience by realising that the mortal men who gave you the blueprint for the prison you have built for your mind continue to profit from their deceit. If you can do this with a measure of sincerety, you are in for a ride. I for my part still can't stop to feel awed, inspired, disgusted and humbled at the same time.
Let's not spoil this conversation by trying to convert each other. As I said I enjoyed it and I'm grateful for your input. We should part with the mutual respect that characterised this discussion. I wish you the very best for the future.
 
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drich0150

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O come on. Just open your eyes and ears to what is going on in the world, soften your heart to its beauty and the incredible suffering of humankind that is plainly out there to see for everyone.
Again, one man's evidence is another man's simple foolishness.

Try to broaden your journey/experience by realizing that the mortal men who gave you the blueprint for the prison you have built for your mind continue to profit from their deceit.
The blue print given to me probably fits the cliché of religion that you are trying to represent. The God I serve was not given to me by another. Or have you not read anything I have posted up to this point. I have been teaching a separation from religion and tradition. not blind adherence to it.

also know, I am not in prison, I have truthfully found freedom. I am not saying that there aren't those of us in the faith that are bound to legalism. But even so, you will find that even they are not true slaves. the true slaves of this life are the slaves that are bound to sin, and don't even know it. They must close their eyes and minds off to anything that does not fill a personal want, or selfish desire. They are always changing, always justifying, or adopting personal philosophies that allow them an artificial freedom, to live the life they think they want.

If you can do this with a measure of sincerity, you are in for a ride. I for my part still can't stop to feel awed, inspired, disgusted and humbled at the same time.
I have removed myself from organized religion for a while and have spent my time in the desert. What i have found is a faith that can not be taught or bought. I have taken your ride and still found my way home. Why? Because again of what I found on my journey.

As I said I enjoyed it and I'm grateful for your input. We should part with the mutual respect that characterized this discussion. I wish you the very best for the future.
I look forward to your next question.
 
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chilehed

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Strange, some people like me can't hear him and he seems to tell the rest of the people entirely different things. About the Amoeba, I was taking it up a notch because as someone already pointed out, the initial comparison with a fly was dramatically understated (the one with the amoeba is of course as well).
If you're gonna engage in moving the goalpost then there's no point in having a discussion. You've done it twice in this one post.
 
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eugler

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If you're gonna engage in moving the goalpost then there's no point in having a discussion. You've done it twice in this one post.

If you're deliberately missing the question no matter how I'm trying to clarify it while at the same time ignoring my own request for clarification, there is indeed no point to it.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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I'm just gonna jump in here and say that this is probably one of the best, most respectful threads I've ever seen on an internet forum. Polite discourse with (hopefully) mutual benefit along with some really great insight for others reading it.

It gives me hope for more peaceful discourse when talking about the emotionally charged subject of God and religion.

Please continue :)
 
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chilehed

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If you're deliberately missing the question no matter how I'm trying to clarify it while at the same time ignoring my own request for clarification, there is indeed no point to it.
Your question was
How on earth could anyone state that he or she understood what this being had in mind when it was creating this, let alone what it wants us to do?...​
to which I responded
When I want someone to know what's on my mind, I usually tell them.​
I don't see that I've missed anything. God, by definition, is able to communicate with us, and we, by definition, are able to understand what he thinks we need to know.

I don't understand what the difficulty is. No one's ever claimed that we can understand the entire mind of God, in fact Christian theology unambiguously says that we can't - but that doesn't imply that we can't understand anything of God's mind.

Asking about amoeba moves the goalpost considerably, and is is irrelevant given that no one's ever claimed that amoeba have minds that can reason.
 
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eugler

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I see, to be honest I was suspecting you of being offended and blocking deliberately. We are probably thinking of different definitions of intelligence. Maybe I can clarify mine with another example:
If we look at the relationship between a dog and his master, we can observe that a well trained dog will do his masters biding. But while we at first glance could be tempted to think the dog understands his master and hence is obedient that of course is not the case. The dog obeys because it was conditioned to present a certain behaviour in certain situations just as it was conditioned to obey to predefined orders. After some time it will even gain a little insight into his master's intentions and for instance realise that he is about to take it out for a walk or give it a treat. But the real motives of the master will be entirely beyond it. If you take your dog outside for a walk 2 hours earlier than usally because you got of at work earlier and want to make use of the extra time by going to the gym for instance, these circumstances would be so far of to the dog it would'nt even come close to understand if it had eternity to ponder them. Yet a dog is not stupid and it wouldn't be true that it wouldn't use some kind of reasoning to modify its behaviour (how else could it be conditioned?). The kicker is it still wouldn't understand it if you would spend eternity explaining the circumstances even if you would be able to clearly comunicate with it because your thoughts would be much too abstract for the dog to come even close to grasp them.
Having said all that we have to admit that dogs are pretty clever and that we are very close to them on the scale of intelligence of the creatures of this planet. Our species are separated by only the blink of an eye in an evolutionary time frame. The difference between us and a creator entity would be almost inifinitely larger.


I don't see that I've missed anything. God, by definition, is able to communicate with us, and we, by definition, are able to understand what he thinks we need to know.

That depends on the definition. As I said I'm talking in general about a superior being that created and understands (or at least has understood at some point) the intricate details of the universe on every level at the same time. I was not aiming at the Christian god in particular but try to approach the topic from a general view of such a being and what could be understood by beings like us.

I don't understand what the difficulty is. No one's ever claimed that we can understand the entire mind of God, in fact Christian theology unambiguously says that we can't - but that doesn't imply that we can't understand anything of God's mind.

Asking about amoeba moves the goalpost considerably, and is is irrelevant given that no one's ever claimed that amoeba have minds that can reason.

I can't remember anyone claiming that about flys either so the same could be said for the original example. Yet the questions where does conscioussness begin and were does reasoning begin are not answered. Maybe they can't be answered within our own frame of mind at all because that's where conscioussnes and reasoning are defined by consciouss reasoning so there can't be an objective view of this. Maybe we can at some point, who knows. Think of the following for instance: A jellyfish doesn't have a nervous system at all therefore it shouldn't even be consciouss let alone reason or feel as far as we know. But still isn't it something different to switch of a running computer from throwing a living jellyfish into a fire, wouldn't it "feel" different to do so? I love playing with these strange thoughts, but that's probably a topic for another threat.
The only reason I threw the amoeba into the game was to emphazise the huge gap between "god" and us. I see now why it confused you further and didn't clarify the initial misunderstanding. I hope this post cleared it up a little bit.
 
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elman

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Hi everybody,

I'm not at CF regularly but love to pop in from time to time to participate in some of the interessting discussions here. As you can see by the little sign above I'm an atheist but I must admit that I've been an Agnostic for the bigger part of my live since I've always rejected organised religion as a philosophy for myself (although going through the lot of the catholic initiation rites). I'm telling you this because I would be interessted in some religious views of one of the main reasons for my (then) Agnosticism which was (and still is) a paradox from my pov.

Let's assume there is a supernatural entity that we call god and that has created all of this, all that we can see and (according to most religious views) even more than that. The ingraspable vasteness of the whole universe was deliberately brought into existence by this entity which - in order to do this - has at least at some point understood the workings of his creation everywhere and at every scale. It follows logically that the intelligence of this being must be far beyond our human imagination. How on earth could anyone state that he or she understood what this being had in mind when it was creating this, let alone what it wants us to do? Is this not far more questionable than a fly claiming to understand what went through Einstein's mind when he was developing the theory of relativity?

Having stated this question I would like to ask you to answer without refering to your scripture or the revelation given to your specific religion and denomination. This is meant as a general question from a non-believer to a believer and I would be interessted in your personal thoughts, not the thoughts of your church. I'm not trying to convert anyone so please refrain from delivering sermons but see this as a discussion among equals who want to learn more about the way other people think. I'm looking forward to an interessting discussion.
I don't buy into size equals good or bigger is better. Love is more important than a thousand dead universes. I see our response to reality as a choice of assumptions. We can assume no Creator which means no meaning ultimately to anything and all with a destiny of oblivion, certainly all life having a destiny of oblivion and meaninglessness or we can assume there is an inteligence behind our existence and a purpose for us to fulfill and perhaps a destiny other than oblivion. I find the latter assumption the more reasonable. Once we have assumed a Creator, we then must assume a good Creator or an evil one or one that is both good and evil or one that is neither. I find the assumption of a good Creator the more reasonable.
 
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chilehed

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I see, to be honest I was suspecting you of being offended and blocking deliberately.
No offense taken or intended... hey, it's not as if that kind of thing never happens here.

That depends on the definition. As I said I'm talking in general about a superior being that created and understands (or at least has understood at some point) the intricate details of the universe on every level at the same time. I was not aiming at the Christian god in particular but try to approach the topic from a general view of such a being and what could be understood by beings like us.....The only reason I threw the amoeba into the game was to emphazise the huge gap between "god" and us. I see now why it confused you further and didn't clarify the initial misunderstanding. I hope this post cleared it up a little bit.
Sure, if you define God as someone who can't communicate with us, and define us as beings incapable of rational thought, then there's no reason at all to think that we can understand anything of his mind.

If you assume that we are capable of reason then we can use reason to come to correct conclusions about the nature of God and to develop some idea about what he might be thinking, but not being able to communicate with him there would be a lot of things that we are capable of grasping but that we couldn't know with certainty.

If you then allow for the idea that God can communicate with us, then we can certainly understand the things that are within our grasp and that he wishes us to know.

The Christian position is that we are capable of reason and that God has communicated with us.

Remember, the amoeba thing is just a simile. I could draw a simile between the size of an electron, the size of a human being, and the size of the universe, but you wouldn't then conclude that quantuum effects are significant at the scale of 6 feet and 160 pounds.
 
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Walter Kovacs

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I imagine the OP would enjoy reading some of Aquinas's work.

Thomistic Natural Theology

The faulty assumption here, of course, is that the Judeo-Christian god is similar to other gods/systems of belief. Hinduism and Buddhism both fit into the categories the OP is talking about; they are impersonal to the highest degree. They are systems based on ideas, and only ideas.

If the Judeo-Christian god was simply an answer to philosphical problems or the projection of deity onto creation (ie Thor, Zeus) then it would be expected that there would be no way for us to draw near to them; indeed no ancient mythology has that personal aspect. The same goes for Greek though; Plato, Aristotle and Socrates were only able to get as far as some impersonal thing might be out there. Judeo-Christianity changed all that.


"The God of the Hebrews, writes Etienne Gilson, was “Not a God imagined by poets or discovered by any thinker as an ultimate answer to his metaphysical problems, but one who had revealed Himself to the Jews, told them His name, and explained to them His nature, in so far at least as His nature can be understood by men.” Gilson, Etienne, God and Philosophy (New Haven; Yale, 1962), p. 38). Plato had concluded the ultimate philosophical explanation for all which exists should rest “not within those elements of reality that are always being generated… but with something which because it has no generation, truly is or exists…” This, Gilson observes, was almost exactly what the Christians affirmed, but with one critical difference: the difference of the article. “For Moses said: ‘He who is,’ and Plato: ‘That which is…’ If God is ‘He who is,’ He is also ‘that which is,’ because to be somebody is also to be something. Yet the converse is not true, for to be somebody is much more than to be something. We are here at the dividing line between Greek thought and Christian thought… Taken in itself, Christianity was not a philosophy. It was the essentially religious doctrine of the salvation of men through Christ. Christian philosophy arose at the juncture of Greek philosophy and Jewish-Christian religious revelation… Between ‘Him who is’ and ourselves, there is the infinite metaphysical chasm which separates the complete self-sufficiency of his own existence from the intrinsic lack of necessity of our own existence. Nothing can bridge such a chasm, save a free act of the divine will only. This is why, from the time of Saint Augustine up to our own days, human reason has been up against the tremendously difficult task of reaching a transcendent God whose pure act of existing is radically distinct from our own borrowed existence… Here again historians of philosophy find themselves confronted with this to them always unpalatable fact: a non-philosophical statement which has since become an epoch-making statement in the history of philosophy. The Jewish genius was not a philosophical genius; it was a religious one” (ibid, p. 42-43, 54).

“Though Israel’s notion of God was unique in the ancient world, and a phenomenon that defies rational explanation, to attempt to understand her faith in terms of an idea of God would be a fundamental error. Israel’s religion did not consist in certain religious ideas or ethical principles, but rested in the memory of historical experience as interpreted by faith… Not only was the Israelite league aware that its God had come from Sinai (e.g. Judges 5:4f; Deut 33:2); its sacred traditions remembered the covenant that had been made with him there… We are driven, therefore to assume that the origins of the covenant league, like those of Yahwism itself, reach back to Sinai. .. If Yahwism originated in the desert (as it certainly did) we must conclude that the covenant society did also, for Yahwism and covenant are coterminous!” (Bright, John, History of Israel, pp. 148, 167-168).


The differences are immense and must come into any discussion comparing Judeo-Christianity with any other worldview, because it truly is unique. Whether or not one believes it or not, it must be admitted there it is incredibly different than other belief systems, despite superficial and ultimately meaningless similarities. One MUST approach it as it is given in order to make any sense of it at all; to do so any other way would be like trying to understand a living human person only in terms of their physical properties. It simply is the wrong way to go about relating to another person.
 
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paul becke

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Although anyone with a grain of spiritual sensitivity could not fail to feel an awestruck humility at the scale complexity and beauty of the whole of creation, I don't believe it would be considered any big deal by God, himself, particularly, perhaps, the scale.

In his essay on comparative religion, The Perennial Philosophy, Aldous Huxley differentiated between the analytical intelligence and the unitive intelligence - respectively, worldly and spiritual wisdom. He further postulated that the brain was in fact, a reducing valve, enabling us to survive in time. I believe he suggested the idea was Henri Bergson's. He didn't claim it as his own. This fits in perfectly with the Gospel precept that it is the poor who are rich in faith. The prosperous people living in the upmarket, residential areas do tend to have a higher worldly intelligence.

Our assumptions, which are our life's work, on the level of the heart/intellect are chosen by our hearts in an even more dedicated way than the way in which we choose to know the more superficial, day-to-day fare that is the province of our brains. All the teachings of Jesus, and I suppose every religion, if it comes to that, seem to be unambiguously based on voluntarism. We know what we want to...

However, the salvation of the worldly-wise, indeed, their wisdom lies precisely in basing their worldy acumen on the spiritual assumptions which, kind of instinctively/subliminally inform the essentially more spiritual public; that is in using it for the public good. Of course, there are many good people of a more worldly-wise bent, who do precisely that, rather than simply from a cynically narrow self-interest.

So, I think there are grounds for believing that, in heaven, a person whose brain had been severely damaged at birth in this life, and consequently an extremely low level of worldly intelligence, would in the next life have the capacity for worldly wisdom of Einstein, indeed, a completely comprehensive knowledge and understanding of our universe; except that it seems unlikely that anyone would be so spiritually purblind as to want to understand the workings of our material universe this side of the Parousia, on the other side.

Our unitive intelligence here on earth now, however, would, on the other hand, find its fulfilment in heaven in ways "no eye has seen, no ear has heard and no mind has imagined."

If you were taught the Catholic faith, I don't really understand how you can ask your question. By our incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ, we are adopted into the very life of the Trinity: our family!

Your question is also baffling in that we believe that it was God who initiated our relationship with him, and we only believe what he has taught us and convinced us of. Is that gift of knowledge and understanding any more spectacularly improbable than that the creator of the universe should become one of his own minuscule creatrues, and allow himself to be tortured to death by them, in order to enable them share in his own divine life - as family members!

I do see your point, in a way. Indeed, without the inspiration of grace, i.e. on the face of it, it really does seem the most wildly improbable thing.

And just as incomprehensible is the question why, instead of an infinitely-loving God and a universe he created (apart from whatever else he might have created we know nothing about), is there not nothing? Why should anything exist?
 
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eugler

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I don't buy into size equals good or bigger is better. Love is more important than a thousand dead universes. I see our response to reality as a choice of assumptions. We can assume no Creator which means no meaning ultimately to anything and all with a destiny of oblivion, certainly all life having a destiny of oblivion and meaninglessness or we can assume there is an inteligence behind our existence and a purpose for us to fulfill and perhaps a destiny other than oblivion. I find the latter assumption the more reasonable. Once we have assumed a Creator, we then must assume a good Creator or an evil one or one that is both good and evil or one that is neither. I find the assumption of a good Creator the more reasonable.

Not surprisingly I disagree. How can an assumption be a choice? A reasonable assumption should be the product of what seems to be most likely according to the available information with the achievable minimum of bias. And a reasonable person should always be aware that it is just that, an assumption.
 
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eugler

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Sure, if you define God as someone who can't communicate with us, and define us as beings incapable of rational thought, then there's no reason at all to think that we can understand anything of his mind.

If you assume that we are capable of reason then we can use reason to come to correct conclusions about the nature of God and to develop some idea about what he might be thinking, but not being able to communicate with him there would be a lot of things that we are capable of grasping but that we couldn't know with certainty.

If you then allow for the idea that God can communicate with us, then we can certainly understand the things that are within our grasp and that he wishes us to know.


It's not that simple. I defined God in this thread as a form of higher intelligence. I never said that we are not capable of rational thought but it wouldn't make sense to think that rational thought is like a spark that was given to us and either exists perfectly and unchangeble or does not. From my pov rational thought is something that has developed and exists on many different levels. Obviously it has to have come about this way when you think of the different species of human beings that have existed before us. It wouldn't make sense to think that the first homo sapiens (who of course didn't come about as "the first homo sapiens") lit a light bulb in his head and was all of a sudden capable of rational thought while there was no such thing before him and none will follow either. The sheer mind boggling that comes with trying to imagine the thoughts of our earlier ancestors should give you an idea about how hard it is to understand more "primitive" thoughts of a different being (as we all observe in this thread it's already mind boggling to understand each other's way of thinking :D).


The Christian position is that we are capable of reason and that God has communicated with us.

I know that. Again, I'm not here to debate the Christian position.

Remember, the amoeba thing is just a simile. I could draw a simile between the size of an electron, the size of a human being, and the size of the universe, but you wouldn't then conclude that quantuum effects are significant at the scale of 6 feet and 160 pounds.

Of course it's a similie. The connecting factor is simply the fact that both examples are alive by the usual definitions. It's not completly random like the one you are presenting. I tried to explain why before. We will have to agree on the trail of thought in the initial question otherwise there's no point to the debate. If it doesn't make sense to you at all I will have to accept that. I'm not here to devalue anyones religious views, I'm just curious what a religious person would make of such a notion independent of his/her official "label".
 
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eugler

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I imagine the OP would enjoy reading some of Aquinas's work.

Thomistic Natural Theology

The faulty assumption here, of course, is that the Judeo-Christian god is similar to other gods/systems of belief. Hinduism and Buddhism both fit into the categories the OP is talking about; they are impersonal to the highest degree. They are systems based on ideas, and only ideas.

The faulty assumption here is that all other belief systems are in themselves coherent (not even Christianity is). Buddhism is at least in its original form atheistic and therefore doesn't compare (who did?). Hinduism is no unified religion and has monotheistic, polytheistic and atheistic scholars. What they all agree on is the Samsara and the Brahman, from there everyone is basically free to follow any interpretation or come up with his/her own one.

If the Judeo-Christian god was simply an answer to philosphical problems or the projection of deity onto creation (ie Thor, Zeus) then it would be expected that there would be no way for us to draw near to them; indeed no ancient mythology has that personal aspect. The same goes for Greek though; Plato, Aristotle and Socrates were only able to get as far as some impersonal thing might be out there. Judeo-Christianity changed all that.

You can't know that for you have no idea of what religions existed before recorded history, none of us has. Without doubt there were and are an abundance of other religions teaching that god is a personal being which is the topic of this thread. When you say "Plato, Aristotle and Socrates were only able to get as far as some impersonal thing might be out there", I'd say religious theologians only got so far that some person must be out there doing all this while the greek philosophers managed to extend the horizon considerabely.


"The God of the Hebrews, writes Etienne Gilson, was “Not a God imagined by poets or discovered by any thinker as an ultimate answer to his metaphysical problems, but one who had revealed Himself to the Jews, told them His name, and explained to them His nature, in so far at least as His nature can be understood by men.” Gilson, Etienne, God and Philosophy (New Haven; Yale, 1962), p. 38). Plato had concluded the ultimate philosophical explanation for all which exists should rest “not within those elements of reality that are always being generated… but with something which because it has no generation, truly is or exists…” This, Gilson observes, was almost exactly what the Christians affirmed, but with one critical difference: the difference of the article. “For Moses said: ‘He who is,’ and Plato: ‘That which is…’ If God is ‘He who is,’ He is also ‘that which is,’ because to be somebody is also to be something. Yet the converse is not true, for to be somebody is much more than to be something. We are here at the dividing line between Greek thought and Christian thought… Taken in itself, Christianity was not a philosophy. It was the essentially religious doctrine of the salvation of men through Christ. Christian philosophy arose at the juncture of Greek philosophy and Jewish-Christian religious revelation… Between ‘Him who is’ and ourselves, there is the infinite metaphysical chasm which separates the complete self-sufficiency of his own existence from the intrinsic lack of necessity of our own existence. Nothing can bridge such a chasm, save a free act of the divine will only. This is why, from the time of Saint Augustine up to our own days, human reason has been up against the tremendously difficult task of reaching a transcendent God whose pure act of existing is radically distinct from our own borrowed existence… Here again historians of philosophy find themselves confronted with this to them always unpalatable fact: a non-philosophical statement which has since become an epoch-making statement in the history of philosophy. The Jewish genius was not a philosophical genius; it was a religious one” (ibid, p. 42-43, 54).

“Though Israel’s notion of God was unique in the ancient world, and a phenomenon that defies rational explanation, to attempt to understand her faith in terms of an idea of God would be a fundamental error. Israel’s religion did not consist in certain religious ideas or ethical principles, but rested in the memory of historical experience as interpreted by faith… Not only was the Israelite league aware that its God had come from Sinai (e.g. Judges 5:4f; Deut 33:2); its sacred traditions remembered the covenant that had been made with him there… We are driven, therefore to assume that the origins of the covenant league, like those of Yahwism itself, reach back to Sinai. .. If Yahwism originated in the desert (as it certainly did) we must conclude that the covenant society did also, for Yahwism and covenant are coterminous!” (Bright, John, History of Israel, pp. 148, 167-168).

The differences are immense and must come into any discussion comparing Judeo-Christianity with any other worldview, because it truly is unique. Whether or not one believes it or not, it must be admitted there it is incredibly different than other belief systems, despite superficial and ultimately meaningless similarities. One MUST approach it as it is given in order to make any sense of it at all; to do so any other way would be like trying to understand a living human person only in terms of their physical properties. It simply is the wrong way to go about relating to another person.

That's all good and fine if you believe god revealed himself to the chosen ones and you happen to be one of them but I don't buy it. Many do that and many follow entirely different teachings and I'm tempted to quote: They cannot all be right but they can all be wrong. All worldviews are unique that doesn't mean some are not more comparable than others.
 
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AllOrNothing

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Let's assume there is a supernatural entity that we call god and that has created all of this,

Why do we need to assume a supernatural entity.. ?

The Bible clearly teaches God is a Spirit... existing in human hearts and minds... it doesn't teach that each of us have a supernatural entity inside us... it teaches God is Love.

The problem arises when we artificially try to divide the universe into two halves.. the creator and the creation.. when.. the evidence suggests that they are inseparable.

---

“The distinction between natural and supernatural, in fact, broke down; and when it had done so, the burden of intolerable strangeness which this universe imposes on us by dividing it into two halves and encouraging the mind never to think of both in the same context. What price we may have paid for this comfort in the way of false security and accepted confusion of the thought is another matter.”

C.S. Lewis
 
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eugler

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Although anyone with a grain of spiritual sensitivity could not fail to feel an awestruck humility at the scale complexity and beauty of the whole of creation, I don't believe it would be considered any big deal by God, himself, particularly, perhaps, the scale.

In his essay on comparative religion, The Perennial Philosophy, Aldous Huxley differentiated between the analytical intelligence and the unitive intelligence - respectively, worldly and spiritual wisdom. He further postulated that the brain was in fact, a reducing valve, enabling us to survive in time. I believe he suggested the idea was Henri Bergson's. He didn't claim it as his own. This fits in perfectly with the Gospel precept that it is the poor who are rich in faith. The prosperous people living in the upmarket, residential areas do tend to have a higher worldly intelligence.

The desperate looking for consolidation also fits in with the poor being rich in faith. Also does the aggressive mission with people who have nothing to eat and happily change their faith for earthly help like a handful of rice. I've wittnessed this happening and I find it disgusting on many levels.

Our assumptions, which are our life's work, on the level of the heart/intellect are chosen by our hearts in an even more dedicated way than the way in which we choose to know the more superficial, day-to-day fare that is the province of our brains. All the teachings of Jesus, and I suppose every religion, if it comes to that, seem to be unambiguously based on voluntarism. We know what we want to...

... and we know just wanting something to exist doesn't make it true. About the voluntarism I will have to point to mission and social pressure, they can't just be ignored.

However, the salvation of the worldly-wise, indeed, their wisdom lies precisely in basing their worldy acumen on the spiritual assumptions which, kind of instinctively/subliminally inform the essentially more spiritual public; that is in using it for the public good. Of course, there are many good people of a more worldly-wise bent, who do precisely that, rather than simply from a cynically narrow self-interest.

So, I think there are grounds for believing that, in heaven, a person whose brain had been severely damaged at birth in this life, and consequently an extremely low level of worldly intelligence, would in the next life have the capacity for worldly wisdom of Einstein, indeed, a completely comprehensive knowledge and understanding of our universe; except that it seems unlikely that anyone would be so spiritually purblind as to want to understand the workings of our material universe this side of the Parousia, on the other side.

Our unitive intelligence here on earth now, however, would, on the other hand, find its fulfilment in heaven in ways "no eye has seen, no ear has heard and no mind has imagined."

You're loosing me here.

If you were taught the Catholic faith, I don't really understand how you can ask your question. By our incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ, we are adopted into the very life of the Trinity: our family!

I heard that quite often, it didn't make much sense to me. In history and society the origin and presence of the catholic church looked rather different than how they liked to be seen, that made much more sense. I only mentioned it because I wanted to imply that I am familiar with the Chrisitan worldview.

Your question is also baffling in that we believe that it was God who initiated our relationship with him, and we only believe what he has taught us and convinced us of. Is that gift of knowledge and understanding any more spectacularly improbable than that the creator of the universe should become one of his own minuscule creatrues, and allow himself to be tortured to death by them, in order to enable them share in his own divine life - as family members!

I think I at least roughly know what you believe, but I'm rather interested in what you think.

I do see your point, in a way. Indeed, without the inspiration of grace, i.e. on the face of it, it really does seem the most wildly improbable thing.

Thanks.

And just as incomprehensible is the question why, instead of an infinitely-loving God and a universe he created (apart from whatever else he might have created we know nothing about), is there not nothing? Why should anything exist?

I related the question of purpose in a previous post to us as humans and the way we think. While a good possible answer to your question is the Anthrophic Principle (Anthropic principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), I'm not sure whether the question even applies. "Why" is just a question of context, its just a collection of "Hows" if you will. If somebody asks you why there is a rainbow, you will have to explain to him how there is rain, how the sun works, how light behaves and many other things. At some point the other person will be satisfied with the amount of context that answers his question "why is there a rainbow?". To think we are even close to answering the big "Why" when we have barely scratched the surface of "How" - and who knows whether we are even capable of penetrating it - seems strange to me. Not to know means not to know, that's the default, god isn't.
 
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eugler

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Why do we need to assume a supernatural entity.. ?

That's a question for another thread and it speaks from my heart just as if I had asked it myself.


The Bible clearly teaches God is a Spirit... existing in human hearts and minds... it doesn't teach that each of us have a supernatural entity inside us... it teaches God is Love.

The problem arises when we artificially try to divide the universe into two halves.. the creator and the creation.. when.. the evidence suggests that they are inseparable.

---

“The distinction between natural and supernatural, in fact, broke down; and when it had done so, the burden of intolerable strangeness which this universe imposes on us by dividing it into two halves and encouraging the mind never to think of both in the same context. What price we may have paid for this comfort in the way of false security and accepted confusion of the thought is another matter.”

C.S. Lewis

I'm pretty sure you won't be able to prove anything to me here, just as I won't to you, no reason for quoting. So if your still interested, read the initial question again and try answering it with your opinion in a way a non-believer can understand it.
 
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Walter Kovacs

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You can't know that for you have no idea of what religions existed before recorded history, none of us has. Without doubt there were and are an abundance of other religions teaching that god is a personal being which is the topic of this thread. When you say "Plato, Aristotle and Socrates were only able to get as far as some impersonal thing might be out there", I'd say religious theologians only got so far that some person must be out there doing all this while the greek philosophers managed to extend the horizon considerabely.

That's all good and fine if you believe god revealed himself to the chosen ones and you happen to be one of them but I don't buy it. Many do that and many follow entirely different teachings and I'm tempted to quote: They cannot all be right but they can all be wrong. All worldviews are unique that doesn't mean some are not more comparable than others.

Did you change what I wrote when you quoted me?

The Greek philosophers, while brilliant, were limited, in many ways. Euthyphros dilemma and Epicurus riddle show this. I'm not going to launch another discussion about those, but those illustrate the limits of classical Greek thought. Theologians, Augustine and Aquinas in particular, took classical Greek philosophy far beyond where it originally went, and effectively solved the problems the Greeks had been dealing with.

At any rate, I'm not arguing for somehting being true just because it is unique, nor do I believe simply that "I am a chosen one." It simply illustrates the uniqueness of the Judeo-Christian worldview.
 
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