A Messianic Creed?

[anisavta]

It's hard to say. Probably not.

 

[Shimshon]

One thing's for certain - the SoF here on the forum certainly doesn't represent all MJs.

That's because it was never meant to do such a thing, as it is the confession of both 'mainstream' bodies that comprise the Messianic Movement of Jewish believers (MJAA & UMJC). The others you mention are not seen by the majority of Messianic Jews as 'mainstream'. They mearly seem like the majority in 'this' forum.

Maybe in time they will develop creeds and organizational unions to equal and/or surpass the present majority of Messianic Jews. But this is yet to be seen. As it stands, the SoF represents the 'mainstream' body of Messianic Jews in the world. It was never meant to include all divergent theologies and sects as associated to Judaism/Chrstianity. (one law, two house...) In fact, the mainstream body of Messianic Jews has position papers that deal with these very sects. They reject them. Even FFOZ has adjusted it's HaYesod teachings to account for this. As they too have reversed on the one law doctrine. They now call it 'divine invitation', but not 'commanded as Israel'.

I equate the one law movement within Messianic Judaism to the pre-trib rapture movement within the Church. To the outside, it may appear like the rapture is Christian Doctrine, but to the mainstream Christian body it is seen as unbiblical. Likewise the one law/two house doctrines that have sprouted out of Messianic Judaism.

Also, when those here whitewash the term Messianic Judaism and start coining the phrase as "Messianic" and expect it to be a one creed fits all body, you do diservice to us (Jews) and your understanding of us. We are Jews who believe in Messiah Yeshua. We do not lose our identity as Jews.

It's akin to grouping all RJ's into one group and say 'you must define yourself as one body'. Lets just call you Rabbinical, and drop the Judaism..ay? Since you follow oral rabbinical law over the Torah. For without it you would not know how to interpret said Torah, yes?

Though I sense the real issue ,for RJ's here at least, is the desire to remove Judaism from Messianic all together..... but hey, that's just me.....

 

[ChavaK]

This comes from Congregation Etz Chaim in Illinois.

I notice that they emphasize Messisanic Jews and do not mention Gentiles
at all. Should not they be included in such a creed?

 

[Lulav]

Why do we need a Creed? So people can be pigeon-holed into towing the line or else be labeled a heretic?

Tell me, did the 12 Apostles have a creed they followed?

We were made in G-ds image but we are not bots, nor does he want us to be, how boring would that be for him?

Besides, doesn't the world have enough 'creeds'? All it does is divide the body and I would think that some on heard would be against such a thing.

From a site devoted to 'creeds' it states that a creed is a:

Human documents are carefully considered and usually thoughtfully worded responses to various issues, heresies and historical situations that have troubled the Church and the world over the centuries.

Notice that it is a response to issues of disagreement. It is a document to force one to be all on the same page if you want to be associated with a certain denomination.

In most places this creed is recited weekly during services (at least in the protestant churches), thus reinforcing your agreement to think this and only this. I consider that a form of brain-washing, and G-d is bigger than that.

Here are some creeds to read so you can see how the various sects want you to believe in their 'brand' of Christianity.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica] Ancient | Baptist | Episcopal | Lutheran | Mennonite | Methodist | Orthodox | Pentecostal | Presbyterian | Puritan | Quaker | Reformed | Roman Catholic | Salvation Army | UCC | Miscellany [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Ireneaus Rule of Faith[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Hippolytus' account of the baptismal service[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Apostle's Creed[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Creed of Nicaea[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Nicene Creed

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, to see over a hundred more go here - Creeds of Christiandom
[/FONT]

This is the only 'Creed' I believe in as should any that consider themselves Messianic.


Deut. 6:4:
Hear O Israel,
the L-RD is our God,
the L-RD alone.
Amein!


I think this thread is just an attempt to make those of this forum agree to only believe certain things. The reason for this forum is because most here do not believe as they are told but instead use the blessing and brains that G-d gave them to decide for themselves what they choose to believe. After all we will be judged on this and shouldn't it be something we determined ourselves? Not followed along with the crowd (cult)?

 

[anisavta]

I notice that they emphasize Messisanic Jews and do not mention Gentiles
at all. Should not they be included in such a creed?

I think the reason is - the rabbi is a Jewish man raised in a Conservative congregation and his heart is for his own people. Thus, the synagogue leans more towards the needs and intrests of the Jewish population. I would think the Gentiles there know they are included and do not need to be singled out.

 

[JRSut1000]

Lulay, I just joined this convo and I have to say I agree with you. Why do we humans feel the need for a creed? It becomes almost a sacred thing and it's merely just a tradition.

 

[visionary]

Why do we need a Creed? So people can be pigeon-holed into towing the line or else be labeled a heretic?

Tell me, did the 12 Apostles have a creed they followed?

We were made in G-ds image but we are not bots, nor does he want us to be, how boring would that be for him?

Besides, doesn't the world have enough 'creeds'? All it does is divide the body and I would think that some on heard would be against such a thing.

From a site devoted to 'creeds' it states that a creed is a:



Notice that it is a response to issues of disagreement. It is a document to force one to be all on the same page if you want to be associated with a certain denomination.

In most places this creed is recited weekly during services (at least in the protestant churches), thus reinforcing your agreement to think this and only this. I consider that a form of brain-washing, and G-d is bigger than that.

Here are some creeds to read so you can see how the various sects want you to believe in their 'brand' of Christianity.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica] Ancient | Baptist | Episcopal | Lutheran | Mennonite | Methodist | Orthodox | Pentecostal | Presbyterian | Puritan | Quaker | Reformed | Roman Catholic | Salvation Army | UCC | Miscellany [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Ireneaus Rule of Faith[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Hippolytus' account of the baptismal service[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Apostle's Creed[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Creed of Nicaea[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Nicene Creed

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, to see over a hundred more go here - Creeds of Christiandom
[/FONT]

This is the only 'Creed' I believe in as should any that consider themselves Messianic.


Deut. 6:4:
Hear O Israel,
the L-RD is our God,
the L-RD alone.
Amein!


I think this thread is just an attempt to make those of this forum agree to only believe certain things. The reason for this forum is because most here do not believe as they are told but instead use the blessing and brains that G-d gave them to decide for themselves what they choose to believe. After all we will be judged on this and shouldn't it be something we determined ourselves? Not followed along with the crowd (cult)?

What is more telling is the person who thinks it is a good thing to have... I could easily see what similarity it would be to his seminary training.

 

[JRSut1000]

I'm not a huge fan of seminaries either (no offense to those who have attended).

 

[Heber]

What is more telling is the person who thinks it is a good thing to have... I could easily see what similarity it would be to his seminary training.

Such foolish comments from both of you!


The moderators will be asked to closed this thread because of the lies and misrepresentation by a just a few people.

 

[JRSut1000]

We can have opinions concerning both creeds and seminaries, we're not making it personal.

 

[Heber]

We can have opinions concerning both creeds and seminaries, we're not making it personal.

You and others are not - some are and I am sick of the attacks, lies and misrepresentations that are repeated time and again. I do not have to put up with these things any longer.

The thread will be closed and my account with CF will be terminated as soon as the Mod to whom I have sent the pm asking for these things to happen actions it.

 

[JRSut1000]

There's a lot of attacks that go on CF, it's almost a given in some section of the forum you (or I or anyone) will be an outcast or called heretic or something along those lines. Is this the reason you want to give up CF?

 

[visionary]

Such foolish comments from both of you!


The moderators will be asked to closed this thread because of the lies and misrepresentation by a just a few people.

It may be to your way of thinking but it is ours.. nothing personal... just theologically different view points.

 

[aniello]

"Laughter is the best medicine" so they say.

Arrivaderci

 

[yonah_mishael]

You and others are not - some are and I am sick of the attacks, lies and misrepresentations that are repeated time and again. I do not have to put up with these things any longer.

The thread will be closed and my account with CF will be terminated as soon as the Mod to whom I have sent the pm asking for these things to happen actions it.

I sure hope you don't really leave, Heber!

 

[yonah_mishael]

That's because it was never meant to do such a thing, as it is the confession of both 'mainstream' bodies that comprise the Messianic Movement of Jewish believers (MJAA & UMJC). The others you mention are not seen by the majority of Messianic Jews as 'mainstream'. They mearly seem like the majority in 'this' forum.

Maybe in time they will develop creeds and organizational unions to equal and/or surpass the present majority of Messianic Jews. But this is yet to be seen. As it stands, the SoF represents the 'mainstream' body of Messianic Jews in the world. It was never meant to include all divergent theologies and sects as associated to Judaism/Chrstianity. (one law, two house...) In fact, the mainstream body of Messianic Jews has position papers that deal with these very sects. They reject them. Even FFOZ has adjusted it's HaYesod teachings to account for this. As they too have reversed on the one law doctrine. They now call it 'divine invitation', but not 'commanded as Israel'.

I equate the one law movement within Messianic Judaism to the pre-trib rapture movement within the Church. To the outside, it may appear like the rapture is Christian Doctrine, but to the mainstream Christian body it is seen as unbiblical. Likewise the one law/two house doctrines that have sprouted out of Messianic Judaism.

Also, when those here whitewash the term Messianic Judaism and start coining the phrase as "Messianic" and expect it to be a one creed fits all body, you do diservice to us (Jews) and your understanding of us. We are Jews who believe in Messiah Yeshua. We do not lose our identity as Jews.

It's akin to grouping all RJ's into one group and say 'you must define yourself as one body'. Lets just call you Rabbinical, and drop the Judaism..ay? Since you follow oral rabbinical law over the Torah. For without it you would not know how to interpret said Torah, yes?

Though I sense the real issue ,for RJ's here at least, is the desire to remove Judaism from Messianic all together..... but hey, that's just me.....

Thank you for your great response. I don't agree that we (the RJs, as you're deemed us) are here to remove anything from MJism. We'll have to disagree on that, but the rest of your post was wonderful.

I've just been made aware of this basic distinction among types of MJ congregations, some in which they teach "One Law" and some which teach "Two House." Even these differences would make it nigh impossible to formulate any kind of unifying creed. Do you any good references for learning about these things? I just started reading something regarding One Law from Tim Hegg.

Thanks.

I understand completely about the rapture thing. The most mainstream of Evangelical groups, though, have bought into the doctrine, from Baptists and Methodists to Pentecostals. Catholics have always rejected it, and some of the larger Protestant groups now reject the rapture doctrine completely, like the Restoration Movement (the Christian Church - started by Alexander and Thomas Campbell) and of course the Lutherans. The Tim LaHaye brand of futurism seems to generally have taken firm grasp among Messianic Jewish congregations, or at least how they're represented here. Do you know much in terms of statistics and how many congregations view eschatology through the eyes of Scofield within MJism?

Regards

 

[JRSut1000]

I'm not into TWO house thing at all, I believe in One New Man for sure.

As far as the rapture, I don't go with the Lahaye doctrine concerning eschatology.

 

[Lulav]

Such foolish comments from both of you!


The moderators will be asked to closed this thread because of the lies and misrepresentation by a just a few people.

can I just ask, why do you have to have a hissy fit every time someone doesn't agree with you? You call others names, make derogatory remarks at their posts and more.

It makes me wonder what it would be like to be part of your congregation. Is that how you would answer to one of them if they made the same statements?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Heber's leaving...why? To my knowledge, this isn't the first time there has been conflict and the responses to such have been different from other times.

 

[Lulav]

No, it is not the first time, apparently he doesn't like being questioned, personally or professionally and takes offense when it happens. Not sure how it happened here but calling people liars, and foolish and such is just childish.