A matter of choice....

[StormyOne]

There are some people who would suggest that choice plays a crucial role in human behavior..... Choice means that a person confronted with two or more options selects an option based on several factors. Those factors might include being familiar with the options available, being predisposed to choose one option over another, maybe even choosing based on a whim because none of the options are known....

Some people and many christians probably fit in the category of "some people," say that homosexuality is a choice that a person makes... To the people who say that, I would ask them, at what point did they choose to be heterosexual? That is, based on being attracted to the same gender, and being attracted to the opposite gender, when did they choose to be attracted to the opposite gender?

I would venture to say most did not "choose" heterosexuality, which then presents a conundrum..... do you see it? Is this issue always a matter of "choice?"

In another area i.e. salvation, some have suggested that people have chosen to be lost, or have refused God's offer of salvation. I don't know of anyone who chooses not to be "saved" when all the options are clearly explained.....

Thoughts regarding either issue?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Some people and many christians probably fit in the category of "some people," say that homosexuality is a choice that a person makes... To the people who say that, I would ask them, at what point did they choose to be heterosexual? That is, based on being attracted to the same gender, and being attracted to the opposite gender, when did they choose to be attracted to the opposite gender?

I would venture to say most did not "choose" heterosexuality, which then presents a conundrum..... do you see it? Is this issue always a matter of "choice?"

I agree.

Here's another question -- does a drug addict choose his addiction?

In another area i.e. salvation, some have suggested that people have chosen to be lost, or have refused God's offer of salvation. I don't know of anyone who chooses not to be "saved" when all the options are clearly explained.....

I don't either. This goes back to the age-old question--does God choose me or I do choose Him? It has been debated for centuries and I'm not yet sure that it should be an "either/or" question. I am still wrestling with this issue.

BFA

 

[AzA]

I do think choice has critical functions; without it we would be completely at the mercy of our environments. Choice helps us to work with the cards we have on the table.

Depending on our assumptions we might say we have nothing to do with the cards we were dealt. Whether this is true or not, we have plenty to do with how we play the "game" once we've received the cards. It's not all about choice. Sometimes it's about a stacked deck. Sometimes the deck is stacked in our favor. All sorts of factors affect the course of play, but we do have some choice.

As far as moral and religious decisions go, I'd say that how I'm made and where I've been situated will greatly affect which options resonate with me and which don't connect with me in any significant way. And even with all that said, I'd say I have some responsibility to write my micro-stories in a way that respects God, respects others, and respects my own soul.

And, yes, framing things this way is totally a choice; I have other options for framing.
And yet I also suspect that the Master Narrative has already been drafted.

 

[bugkiller]

"some people," say that homosexuality is a choice that a person makes...

I would agree it is a choice. It goes againist the natural God given flow. Why do some choose homosexual activity? They are drawn away with their own lust. Now I suppose you want to know where this lust come from. It comes from two souces; one is self and the other is the enemy - satan. How do you tell the difference? I have no clue. But in being tempted there is a free will choice to go either way. If there is no free will then there can not be a whosoever will choice about salvation. So let us all just throw up our hands and say kay serah, kay serah what ever will be will be.

at what point did they choose to be heterosexual?

I think these people are taking the easier road of less resistance. I think there is way more opportuinty for hetersexual activity and lust. Our enemy doesn't care which way he gets us. Note I am not saying all heterosexual is sin (wrong). ROFL!

Same goes for salvation. But let us also remember that God says I will have mercy upon who I will have mercy. God also tells that none will be without excuse. In my world I personnally thing Christians (and so called christians) have a very big role in truning people off from God and church. I certianly can't blame them for being turned off. They just don't realize it is about them and God and them and others. Another factor in all these cases could be abuse.

bugkiller

 

[Byfaithalone1]

In my world I personnally thing Christians (and so called christians) have a very big role in truning people off from God and church. I certianly can't blame them for being turned off.

Hi, BugKiller. It's good to "see" you. I agree wholeheartedly with what you've written above.

Another factor in all these cases could be abuse.

Because I haven't walked in a homosexual's shoes, I can't presume to tell him why he does what he does. It seems to me that there could be any number of factors involved that I would know little or nothing about. It seems possible that, for certain homosexuals, abuse may be one such factor.

I would agree it is a choice. It goes againist the natural God given flow.

Would we agree with the following:

Disease goes against the natural God-given flow?
Birth defects and disabilities go against the natural God-given flow?
Death goes against the natural God-given flow?
​

Such things did not include a choice.

Why do some choose homosexual activity? They are drawn away with their own lust.

From other things you've written, I suspect that we agree that lust is not unique to homosexuality.

Now I suppose you want to know where this lust come from. It comes from two souces; one is self and the other is the enemy - satan. How do you tell the difference? I have no clue. But in being tempted there is a free will choice to go either way.

Perhaps.

The drug addict does not abstain. If we were able to better understand why he doesn't abstain, we might learn more about the real strength of human will power (as opposed to the level of strength that we tend to assign to human will power).

I think these people are taking the easier road of less resistance.

I suspect that their road isn't easy.

let us also remember that God says I will have mercy upon who I will have mercy.

God could have mercy on the homosexual by removing all temptation. For some reason, He doesn't do so.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

Good points BFA, well said..... Bugkiller, you overlooked the crucial question... if sexual orientation is a choice, please share when you "chose" to be heterosexual. That is, based on being attracted to the same gender, and being attracted to the opposite gender, when did you choose to be attracted to the opposite gender?

 

[Joe67]

There is One God, the Father. Every quality comes out of him; the dark and the light. All thoughts need to be traced back to this focus. They do not at first glance seem to fit into this focus.

There is One Lord, Jesus Christ. Every quality comes by and through him; the dark and the light. All thoughts need to be seen through this prism.

Joe

 

[ricker]

Good points BFA, well said..... Bugkiller, you overlooked the crucial question... if sexual orientation is a choice, please share when you "chose" to be heterosexual. That is, based on being attracted to the same gender, and being attracted to the opposite gender, when did you choose to be attracted to the opposite gender?

Same gender attraction is not universal, but succuming to the actual acts are discouraged in the Bible. Some people have different temptations than other. I am not tempted to gamble at all. I am rarely tempted to strike out in anger. I am tempted in some sins probably more strongly than other people and it's not my choice. Just because someone has a "natural" inclination to act in particular way doesn't make the action not a sin if God says it is.

I naturally want to get drunk all day and mess around with women other than my wife. Should I just go with my natural inclinations or do I have a choice?

 

[StormyOne]

Same gender attraction is not universal, but succuming to the actual acts are discouraged in the Bible. Some people have different temptations than other. I am not tempted to gamble at all. I am rarely tempted to strike out in anger. I am tempted in some sins probably more strongly than other people and it's not my choice. Just because someone has a "natural" inclination to act in particular way doesn't make the action not a sin if God says it is.

I naturally want to get drunk all day and mess around with women other than my wife. Should I just go with my natural inclinations or do I have a choice?

Apples and oranges... my point is simple... some suggest that homosexuality is a choice.... I am saying it is not always a choice... and to support that statement I ask any heterosexual person when did they "choose" to be heterosexual....

Getting drunk is a different issue... multiple partners... hmmmmm in ancient days you could have as many women as you could support.... in fact the bible does not speak against polygamy, or having women on the side, remember the narrative says that Solomon had 700 wives AND 300 concubines... concubines where what? Women on the side.... so then messing around with other women, how big is your bank account.... Lastly, you have assumed that God "said it" was a sin, I do not make that assumption... that is, there is not proof that God said it, though we have proof that someone wrote it....

 

[BigRedBus]

I need to be careful how far I go here in case the thread turns into an "is it OK to be gay?" thread...that wasn't the intention of the OP, I'm sure.

But I will say that I don't believe homosexuality is a matter of choice... why would you "choose" to go in a direction that leads to you being discriminated against? Being a homosexual (male or female) means your options regarding housing, employment, church, holidays, overseas travel, socialising and more are limited, in comparison to those of a heterosexual. You might not get to have a family of your own, even if you'd like one. You might find it awkward to show affection in public towards your partner. There could be inheritance problems if you were in a long term relationship and one of you died.

So I can't believe anyone would actually "choose" to be gay -- either you are or you aren't, and there's nothing can be done about it.

And as far as I'm concerned, what this means for me is that the Church and Christians have got to learn to accept gay people the way they are.

I think the cliched "hate the sin, love the sinner" response is patronising and unhelpful -- you don't need to think about it very long or hard to see why it could offend. If you were gay you wouldn't choose to put yourself in a position where you have to listen to well meaning but shallow platitudes like that, would you? And since you can't do anything about your sexuality, I guess you'd just choose a less hostile church environment instead, or none at all.

 

[StormyOne]

I need to be careful how far I go here in case the thread turns into an "is it OK to be gay?" thread...that wasn't the intention of the OP, I'm sure.

But I will say that I don't believe homosexuality is a matter of choice... why would you "choose" to go in a direction that leads to you being discriminated against? Being a homosexual (male or female) means your options regarding housing, employment, church, holidays, overseas travel, socialising and more are limited, in comparison to those of a heterosexual. You might not get to have a family of your own, even if you'd like one. You might find it awkward to show affection in public towards your partner. There could be inheritance problems if you were in a long term relationship and one of you died.

So I can't believe anyone would actually "choose" to be gay -- either you are or you aren't, and there's nothing can be done about it.

And as far as I'm concerned, what this means for me is that the Church and Christians have got to learn to accept gay people the way they are.

I think the cliched "hate the sin, love the sinner" response is patronising and unhelpful -- you don't need to think about it very long or hard to see why it could offend. If you were gay you wouldn't choose to put yourself in a position where you have to listen to well meaning but shallow platitudes like that, would you? And since you can't do anything about your sexuality, I guess you'd just choose a less hostile church environment instead, or none at all.

well said BRB, that is exactly the issues I wanted to address in this thread....

 

[Kira Light]

Is there perhaps a preconceived notion that all things need to be equal to be fair? If you are born homosexual, is it unfair that you will face more challenges as you battle your sexuality?

It seems like people believe homosexuality must be a choice because otherwise it would be an unfair burden in terms of sin.

Isn't the greater expectations of an even playing field the more incorrect assumption?

 

[StormyOne]

Is there perhaps a preconceived notion that all things need to be equal to be fair? If you are born homosexual, is it unfair that you will face more challenges as you battle your sexuality?

It seems like people believe homosexuality must be a choice because otherwise it would be an unfair burden in terms of sin.

Isn't the greater expectations of an even playing field the more incorrect assumption?

I don't think its a fairness issue. My concern is that some people think its a choice people make, and I disagree with that line of thinking. I see your point though regarding the idea that it must be a choice otherwise its unfair....

Who in your opinion is assuming that the playing field must be fair? Just trying to understand the question before I respond...

 

[Kira Light]

I don't think its a fairness issue. My concern is that some people think its a choice people make, and I disagree with that line of thinking. I see your point though regarding the idea that it must be a choice otherwise its unfair....

Who in your opinion is assuming that the playing field must be fair? Just trying to understand the question before I respond...

I'm only trying to address the premise I see behind much of this debate. This would be that it is unfair for God to make gay people and then condemn them for it. This results in people either believing it is OK to engage in homosexual activity, or God is unfair and terrible if he exists at all.

I apologize if you think I'm derailing your thread. I'm not trying to..

But let me follow up then on the main point. You believe it is not a choice to be gay. It is the way a person is made by God. Does this mean that homosexual acts in certain contexts (marriage?) are OK?

The debate on whether it is a choice can't be proven either way, so I am just wondering more hypothetically where you go with the belief you hold.

 

[StormyOne]

I'm only trying to address the premise I see behind much of this debate. This would be that it is unfair for God to make gay people and then condemn them for it. This results in people either believing it is OK to engage in homosexual activity, or God is unfair and terrible if he exists at all.

I apologize if you think I'm derailing your thread. I'm not trying to..

But let me follow up then on the main point. You believe it is not a choice to be gay. It is the way a person is made by God. Does this mean that homosexual acts in certain contexts (marriage?) are OK?

The debate on whether it is a choice can't be proven either way, so I am just wondering more hypothetically where you go with the belief you hold.

Don't worry about derailing the thread, you aren't... I don't mind exploring various aspects of a topic....

Here is what I believe... I think we should introduce people to God (if they don't know him), and then allow God to deal with that person as he sees fit... so I no longer get into "this is okay" or "that is a sin," that's not my job... I believe that love covers a multitude of sins so I try to love.....

On another note, I also think that it is easier for people to be judgmental when they don't know gay people...

 

[Kira Light]

Don't worry about derailing the thread, you aren't... I don't mind exploring various aspects of a topic....

Here is what I believe... I think we should introduce people to God (if they don't know him), and then allow God to deal with that person as he sees fit... so I no longer get into "this is okay" or "that is a sin," that's not my job... I believe that love covers a multitude of sins so I try to love.....

On another note, I also think that it is easier for people to be judgmental when they don't know gay people...

I think that's a good approach. They certainly don't seem to take well to judgments so its not like that does any good anyway. I don't know any gay people but I view them as pretty much like anyone else. Although the ones in the media seem to really hate Christians...

 

[StormyOne]

I think that's a good approach. They certainly don't seem to take well to judgments so its not like that does any good anyway. I don't know any gay people but I view them as pretty much like anyone else. Although the ones in the media seem to really hate Christians...

yeah.... I don't know that I can blame them though, some christians have not been the most tolerant or loving folks...

 

[Avonia]

I don't know any gay people

Yes you do. You might not know they are gay, however.

 

[AzA]

Isn't the greater expectations of an even playing field the more incorrect assumption?

A friend of mine hosted a conversation like this today so it's interesting to see it come back around again.

Nature's sense of balance and our sense of balance are often very different things. An area might have 9 years of drought and 1 year of flooding, and as far as Nature's concerned, the water load that decade was balanced. But the local farmers might not agree.

Complicating things in discussions about human traits, human nature, and human behavior is the fact that we aren't static creatures. We express ourselves in different ways and at different strengths depending on our age, maturity, status, environment, and company <-- to keep the list short!

Another example: it might not be "even" for Kasparov to be able to play chess the way he does, but I might make a better cheese sauce than he does. Some inequities prove to balance out when you zoom out. That doesn't always mean we can't address them at ground level, but -- well, flatten all the mountain ranges and all you have is a lot of Happy, TX.

 

[BigRedBus]

I have just read a balanced and compassionate article in the Washington Post (called Pictures From an Execution Come Into Focus, July 20 2006).

If homosexuality is simply a lifestyle choice, why would people make those choices in a country like Iran? There, severe penalties (including death) are used as punishment for homosexual acts.

There are sure to be further executions of gay people in Iran. Those of you who believe that one's sexuality is just a matter of choice might like to think how they would feel if they had to convey those opinions to the parents of the people concerned. Picture yourself in the same room as them, face to face. Just imagine telling the grieving parents that their son could still be free and alive today if only he had simply decided to be heterosexual instead. If that mental picture doesn't dent a few of your certainties, I don't know what will.