A Marian Challenge!

[Phil 1:21]

You talk about "Christianity 101" and yet still haven't answered my question about whether or not praying to Mary is sinful.

No, the question you asked was whether or not I thought you worshiped Mary. And that is for you to decide. I’m not the judge of your soul.

I reacted the way for three reason: (1) I love God and God loves Mary

I love God and God loves my neighbor Greg. That doesn’t mean I have to pray to Greg, bow down to statues of Greg, or write dissertations of my love and devotion to Greg.

(2) I Mary as my Mistress, Queen, Mother

I don’t need a mistress or queen. I already have the greatest King ever. And my mother’s name isn’t Mary.

(3) Sin is a serious thing, it's not something you joke about! How would like it if I just nonchalantly accused you of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit or just casually spewed out the word "heretic" left and right?

Yes, sin is a serious thing. So why then do you encourage people to, “get yourself an image of Mary, or any other biblica figure and start being bowing down to it…” when the Word of God expressly forbids it in Exodus 20:4-5?

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

As far as how I would feel if you accused me? My salvation isn’t contingent upon your approval, nor is yours contingent upon mine. So why would I care? But if it did bother me, I’d ask myself what God was trying to tell me by stirring my conscience in such a way.

Oh, and I'm an ex-Catholic, so being called a heretic is nothing new to me.

Granted I'm novice in the faith and maybe a more Saintly person would have reacted differently, but still you keep tap-dancing around the issue of whether or not Marian devotion is idolatry?

You want me to make a judgement on the motivations of your soul, and that is for God alone. But if I was encouraging people to “get yourself an image of Mary, or any other biblica figure and start being bowing down to it…” I would be very concerned with what I was doing.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,
Amen.

O God, You are He Who Is, and I am he who is not! You are Truth Himself, I am blinded by the World, the Flesh and the Devil! I Lord may I always have you in mind when I act and speak. May I always trust in you and lean not on my own understanding. Open the minds and hearts of all who are here so that they may conform to reality and submit to the Truth which is You, Yourself. I humbly pray:

Jesus
Meek and humble of heart, hear me
From the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being loved,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being extolled,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being honoured,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being praised,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being preferred to others,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being consulted,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being approved,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being humiliated,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of despised,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of suffering rebukes,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being calumniated,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being forgotten,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being ridiculed,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being wronged,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being suspected,
Deliver me, Jesus.

That other may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be esteemed more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That, in the opinion of the world, others may increase and I may decrease,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That, others may be chosen and I set aside,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That, others may be praised and I unnoticed,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others maybe preferred to me in everything,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

Our Lady of Hope, pray for us!
Saint Elizabeth, pray for us!
Saint John the Baptist, pray for us!
Saint Anthony of Padua, pray for us!
Saint Louis de Montfort, pray for us!

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,
Amen.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,
Amen

(Note: The Church in this image is not the actual Church where I went for Adoration, nor is the Monstrance in which Our Lord is enthroned, nor the candles at His side the same as the one where I went.)

My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love Thee! I beg pardon of all those that do not believe, do not adore, do not hope, and do note love Thee.

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,
Amen

Peace be to you, MrMoe, and and everyone else,

I have gone to Adoration today to worship, Our Lord and God, and In have done additional prayer and meditation throughout the day and now, I am ready to begin explaining the reason for the jumping around in the Visitation.

But before I do, I must apologize for something I said earlier, and a huge mistake I made:

I'm running short of time, so I'll make just address your recent posts on the on that rotten fruit of Protestant and the Eucharist:

I probably won't be able to address your objections for a really long time, because there a lot more important, but I just want address how you twist, and yes that is twisting! You twist that well-founded accusation around and accuse Catholics of "objectifying Mary" when stated, or at the very least implied, at the beginning of this thread that Mary was superior to the Old Ark by being a Living Ark, a Living Person! When twist that well-founded accusation around, that strikes me as desperate! It kind of reminds me of how rebellious RadTrads attack our refusal to sinfully bash the Pope by accusing of "De-facto Sedevacantism!"

I realize now that this was a bad case of rash judgement, and that you could genuinely not see the logical outcome of this. I'm saying this sincerely, I'm not being snarky here, I shouldn't have reacted the way I did. What's worst, I missed how this accusation of "Catholics objectifying Mary" is more hurtful for to Our Blessed Mother than to myself or any Catholic, it's blasphemous! Saying that our acts of love and reverence due to God's beloved Mary is "objectifying" her, and that the Divinely-inspired belief of Our Lady as the living Ark is "objectifying" is extremely insulting to Our Lord and His beloved Mary! Again I'm saying this in a back-handed way, I am sincerely sorry for having missed this! I've been trying to have God first and foremost in my mind, I promise, with the Help of Our Lord and His beloved Lady to do better in the future.

Now, to the main topic:

“We are told that Mary is paralleled with David (both ‘arise’ and ‘set out’), while other times Mary is paralleled with the Ark. Moreover, the statement of David in 2 Sam 6:9, ‘How can the ark of the LORD come to me?,’ changes the parallelism from Mary/David to David/Elizabeth . . . The fluctuation of the parallelism from Mary/Ark to Mary/David to David/Elizabeth to Elizabeth/Obed-Edom (sic) seems too capricious to be valid, and is for that reason alone (sic) rightly rejected by most scholars” (Eric Svendsen, Who is my Mother? The Role of and Status of the Mother of Jesus in the New Testament and Roman Catholicism, [Calvary Press, 2001], p. 168).

Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire of your love. Send forth your Spirit and they shall be created. And You shall renew the face of the earth.

O, God, who by the light of the Holy Spirit, did instruct the hearts of the faithful, grant that by the same Holy Spirit we may be truly wise and ever enjoy His consolations, Through Christ Our Lord, Amen.

Amen

Before I go into the Bible, to explain the significance of the jumping around, I want give just a basic explanation for why Our Lady changes between the Ark and David. Notice this change only occurs at the very beginning and the very end of the episode, throughout the rest, she consistently remains the Ark, there is no sporadic jumping back and forth with Mary, which is to be expected as she is the main character of this episode. Now why does Mary start out as David at the very beginning and then change back to David at the very end? Because the Ark of the New Covenant is more glorious then the Ark of the Old Covenant, the Ark of the New Covenant is a Living Ark, a living person, the Ark of the Old Covenant is non-living and inanimate. Our Lady starts out as King David because it was King David who gave the order for the Ark to moved in the Old Testament, the Old Ark could not move on it's own, but the New Ark move on it's own accord and travel with great haste! Likewise at the end David and the Levites make music and sing praises to God in the presence of the Old Ark, but the New Ark had a voice of her own sing about how she magnifies the Lord and how all generations will call her blessed, despite her lowliness having done nothing to earn her place as the greatest of all God's creatures. So that's the basics, now let's get biblical:

Now, my original plan was to post 1 Chronicles 13 this evening, 2 Samuel 6, and perhaps and The Visitation sometime later. I originally thought that 1 Chronicles 13 was all that the First Book of Chronicles said about David and the Ark, but today I discovered that after a brief interlude 1 Chronicles actually does return to the episode of David and the Ark, this actually not a problem for me and actually reinforces one of my beliefs about the some symbolisms and foreshadowings in this episode. I will continue with my original plan and just add the rest of 1 Chronicles sometime later.

Now, Let's turn to 1 Chronicles 13, I'll go through it, in a Catechetical Q&A style:

Question: What is the basic overview of the events that happen in 1 Chronicles 13?

Answer: The chronology of events that occur as follows: (1) David gathers all the leaders of Israel, both civil and military, and consult them about bringing the Ark up to the City of David which has been neglected in the days of Saul. (2) The Ark is brought up to the City of David by a new cart, pulled by oxen and driven by Ahio and Uzzah. When Uzzah sees the Oxen stumble, he reaches out his to steady the Ark, and the Lord in His anger strikes Uzzah dead. (3) David is, at first angry with the Lord, then he fears the Lord and says (in 1 Chronicles 13) "How can I bring the Ark of God home to me?" and decides not to take the Ark into his city. (4) The Ark is sent to Obed-Edom the Gittite's home where it remains for three months, and the Lord Blesses Obed-Edom and his household.

Question: What is the significance of David summoning all the leaders of Israel and consulting them about the Ark of the Covenant?

Answer: In addition to foreshadowing how to foreshadowing the superiority of the New Ark being alive and moving on her moving, David gathering the leaders foreshadows the Annunciation.

Question: How does the David gathering his officials, foreshadow the Annunciation?

Answer: In the Annunciation, Our Lady is told that her kinswoman Elizabeth, is miraculously pregnant with child at her old age and she in turn, makes haste to visit her relative. This parallel shows the superiority of Mary the Queen, over David the King, David has been assisted by God for all of his kingship and yet still feels the need to consult with the leaders before moving the Ark, Mary, by-contrast upon being visited by Saint Gabriel, albeit, waiting for around a month and a half, immediately sets out for Elizabeth's place, without hesitation. David gathering his officials to fetch the Ark also foreshadows God sending Saint Gabriel the Archangel to Mary.

Question: What is the significance of the Ark being neglected by Saul?

Answer: Saul's negligence of the Ark foreshadows the Pharisees, Sadducees, and other Jewish factions negligence of the Truth in favour of there own view of the Messiah and His reign. Saul's reign was marred by his following the One True Faith according to his own preferences, this culminated in him disobeying God's order to slaughter everything in the city of Amalek, opting instead to offer up Agag and the livestock in sacrifice. Thus to the various Jewish factions at the time of Christ are approaching the Old Covenant according to their own preferences, viewing the Messiah according to their own ideals.

Question: What's the significance of Uzzah reaching out to the Ark and being struck down by God?

Answer: Uzzah reaching out for the Ark and being struck down by God, foreshadows Our Lady's Perpetual Virginity, Just as the man Uzzah couldn't reach out to touch the Ark, so can no man touch Mary, "And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?" Luke 1:34 DRV. There is also slight towards Our Lady's Immaculate Conception, consider why Uzzah reached out his hand to touch the Ark? Uzzah reach out his hand to steady the Ark, in other words, he, in a sense, accused the Ark of being in error, and God in a response struck Him down in His anger, yes it's a bit of a stretch, but it's worth pondering.

Side note: Traditional Catholics should note that the Ark is being carried by a "new cart" pulled by oxen, rather than being carried by Levitical Priests as was the traditional method. This is particularly noteworthy when we a read little later in 1 Chronicles David explicitly orders the Levites to carry the Ark in the traditional fashion, there is lot a could Traditional Catholic apply to the importance of the Liturgy.

Question: Why is David first angry with the Lord and than fears Him?

Answer: This foreshadows the Jews first being angry at Christians for following Jesus and accepting him as the true Messiah and then fearing them later on in history and at the present, for various reasons. This will also come into play in the next question.

We'll skip the part about David saying "how can the Ark of God come to me" since we've already discussed this at the beginning of this thread. Note that in this context, it said out of fear while in St. Elizabeth's instance it is said out of joy, this not only shows the greater glory of the New in contrast of the Old but also has significance in light of the next question.

Question: What is the significance of the Ark being sent to Obed-Edom the Gittite for three months?

Answer: David sending the Ark to Obed-Edom the Gittite for three months where through it, God blessed Obed-Edom and his entire household, foreshadows the Jews rejecting the Messiah, His mother the Gebirah, and the New and Eternal Covenant, and the Gospel being preached to the gentiles, which in turn leads to the rise of Christendom in Europe. Obed-Edom was a Gittite, a man from Gath, a Philistine city, the Philistines were uncircumcised, making them the most foreign people in Palestine, they were believed to be of Indo-European origin, either of Hittite or Greek decent. I've commented how Obed-Edom foreshadows Herod's reign, but Obed-Edom can also symbolize those enslaved to extreme sin. God says He hates Edom, and we know that God really hates is sin, so we can deduce that the Ark going to Obed-Edom forshadows the tax-collectors and prostitutes going to Heaven ahead of others, that's what make Saint Elizabeth's exclamation so re-markable, we know how dangerous the Old Ark is even to the faithful, but of the New Ark, God said He would put enmity between her and the Devil, between her seed and his! Thus the New Ark coming to an Obed-Edom a person enslaved to that which God despises, we would expect it to be all over for that person, but it's just the opposite, Our Lady is the refuge of sinners, she helps free people from such slavery to sin and blesses such, people. But what about Saint Elizabeth? How does she fit into this? Well notice how Mary doesn't know about Saint Elizabeth's miraculous pregnancy at old age until St. Gabriel tells her, the Jews considered fertility in old age one of the greatest miracles God could be bestow on a person, yet no one talked about the miraculous fertility of Sts. Zechariah and Elizabeth, why? One word, humility. Saint Elizabeth was humble, she didn't brag about her miraculous pregnancy, she was humble enough to know that she could easily become an Obed-Edom, that it's all the grace of God that keeps her for wickedness, let alone be blessed with a miraculous pregnancy and a visit from the Living Ark of the New Covenant.

That's all for tonight, I still hope to post more tomorrow but I'll be busy tomorrow as it's the beginning of my 33 Day Consecration, but I won't be in a rush because, quite frankly it looks you're pre-occupied with other things judging by how you haven't posted a response today.

The Holy Mother of God and Queen of Heaven and Earth, pray for us!

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

No, the question you asked was whether or not I thought you worshiped Mary. And that is for you to decide. I’m not the judge of your soul.


As far as how I would feel if you accused me? My salvation isn’t contingent upon your approval, nor is yours contingent upon mine. So why would I care? But if it did bother me, I’d ask myself what God was trying to tell me by stirring my conscience in such a way.

Oh, and I'm an ex-Catholic, so being called a heretic is nothing new to me.



You want me to make a judgement on the motivations of your soul, and that is for God alone. But if I was encouraging people to “get yourself an image of Mary, or any other biblica figure and start being bowing down to it…” I would be very concerned with what I was doing.

Okay, let me challenge you to see who really has the guilty conscience and who truly love God and is following Truth. I want to tell me why you left the Catholic Church and why you believe what you do, including your personal motivations? I in turn will tell you my personal motivations I have such deep devotion to Mary, I've ready mentioned to Garcia Singh a bit of my personal motivations, but I will go into more detail, remember you said that you were open to God stirring your conscience so don't shy away from this.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Okay I'm retiring for tonight, tomorrow I will beginning my 33 Day Consecration so I will conclude tonight with my favourite Marian Prayer, the Ave Maris Stella!

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,
Amen.

Hail, bright star of ocean,
God's own Mother blest,
ever sinless Virgin,
Gate of Heavenly rest.

Taking that sweet Ave
which from Gabriel came,
peace confirm within us,
changing Eva's name.

Break the captives' fetters,
light on blindness pour,
all our ills expelling,
every bliss implore.

Show thyself a Mother;
may the Word Divine,
born for us thine Infant,
hear our prayers through thine.

Virgin all excelling,
mildest of the mild,
freed from guilt, preserve us,
pure and undefiled.

Keep our life all spotless,
make our way secure,
till we find in Jesus
joy for evermore.

Through the highest Heaven
to the immortal Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen

Our Lady of Hope, pray for us!
Saint Elizabeth, pray for us!
Saint John the Baptist, pray for us!
Saint Louis de Montfort, pray for us!
Saint Alphonsus de Liguori , pray for us!

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,
Amen.

 

[MrMoe]

Greetings MrMoe, I just wanted you to know, I'm still working on my explanation for the jumping back and forth in The Visitation. I'm almost finished, I plan on going to Eucharistic Adoration tomorrow and finishing up my meditating on it and then, later that evening, I will post, sort of a basic overview of it and than on Friday, I'll go into a more in-depth explanation of it, you'll know why I'm doing it this way when you receive the first post.

Okay, I was taking a break anyway.

Now, back to Revelations 11 & 12

I'll deal this objection first since part of the answer came to me earlier today, while I was praying a Rosary Novena for this thread. Specifically the part about an earthquake in Revelations 11:19, originally, when I read about an Earthquake in Revelations 11:19, the first thing that comes to mine is one of the Four Marian Dogmas, that we might debate sometime in the future. But today, when meditating on the Glorious Mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary, and read the First Glorious Mystery I read:
"Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Mag'dalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre.
And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone, and sat upon it.
His appearance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow.
And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.
But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
He is not here; for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay." Matthew 28:1-10 RSVCE (Emphasis added)

The earthquake and appearence like lightning are clearly in reference to the angel of the Lord, not Mary.

I already knew that Mary's birth pangs in Revelations 12, symbolized her pain at the foot of the Cross,

You can't have it both ways. You can't have a literal Mary literally giving birth to Christ but then say the pain is symbolic and move it from Jesus' birth to His death.

Birth pangs in the bible are always in relation to being pregnant. Mary wasn't pregnant, she was mourning over Jesus' dying on the cross. This is not the definiton of birth pangs. The Catholic church is reinterpreting this word to fit it's narrative.

but only now did I realize that the earthquake in Revelations 11:19 actually referred to the earthquake that occurred at Jesus' death on the cross, what's more (I just realized this part now while looking up Matthew 27:51, although I might have heard it before), in Matthew 27:51 at the same time that the earthquake is occurring, the Temple veil that separates the outer sanctuary from the Holies of Holies where the Old Ark sat, was rent in two!

Praise be to the Lord! Who has opened my mind to the truth about His Beloved Mary, the Living Ark!
Hail Mary!

The earthquake and the veil being seperated are because of Jesus' death. Again, not about Mary.

Now at the Crucifixion, Mary had birth-pangs and gave birth to her mystical daughter, the Church.

This can't be, since the Scripture clearly states that the birth pangs are in relation to giving birth to a male child.

She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Revelation 12:2

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. Revelation 12:5

The Church is referred to as the "bride" in Revelation 19. This is the title of a female.

This also creates a condratiction which I'll get into later.

The Fathers and Doctors of Church agree that the Church was born at the Crucifixion,

The Church was born at Pentacost.

the Blood and Water which flowed from Jesus' side calls back, Eve, Adam's bride being drawn out of Adam's side. The eclipse, symbolizes the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant, most of the Early Church Fathers view the Moon as symbolizing the Church, see the following video:

Note: some of what this Traditional Priest says may be hard for you to understand, just pay attention to what he says about the Moon. You can skip ahead to 5:30 if you want to get straight the Lunar symbolism, but I'd encourage you watch the whole thing

The man talking quotes Psalm 104:19 and say "Most authors seem to interpret this passage (Psalm 104:19) Mystically to mean Christ and His Church."

This is pure eisegesis. Psalm 104 in context is clearly God talking about his creation. God made the moon for the seasons as it says. There is no double meaning.

Now you may have already figured this out, but the reason that Mary is Mother of the Church is that the Church is Jesus' Mystical Body, and thus Mary being the Mother of Jesus is the Mother of His Mystical Body.

This is a non sequitur.

The Mystical Body of Christ is us, the body of believers. Mary only gave birth to Christ's actual physical body. For Mary to be the mother of the Mystical Body she would literally have to have given birth to all it's believers, and as the Catholics church says, Mary had no other children.

When combine this, with a common sense understanding of John 19:26-27, we can easily find out who Mary's other children are, who are they? Well, you're reading the words typed by one of them! Yes! What's more, if you were baptized in the Trinitarian Formula, you are one of her children, albeit a very disobedient one.

Mary isn't my mother. The woman who gave birth to me is my mother. I would find it highly disrespectful to call a woman I never knew mother over the woman that has raised me since I was a baby.

One more thing in regards to Revelations 11:19, I know you don't consider the description of of lightning and hail as a strong argument against Revelations 11 & 12 being linked, but I want to bring this up because what I'm about to point out is a strong argument against the Woman being Israel and a good argument for the Woman being Mary:

In Ezekiel 1, the prophet has a vision of God which includes a great cloud and flashes of fire and lightning, Ezekiel sees the Lord (I personally believe, it's God the Son) enthroned on a Firmament, clothed in fire, with His face shining like the sun. In Revelations we also see the Son of Man with His face shining like the sun at full power, now look at the Woman in Revelations 12, notice she's clothed with the sun, what does that symbolize? The central and greatest joy of Heaven is seeing God face to face, and as we have shown, the face God the Son is represented as shining like the sun and in John 14:9 Jesus says "he who has seen me has seen the Father"

Ezekiel 1 makes no reference to His face shining like the sun

I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him Ezekiel 1:27

thus, the Woman being clothed with the sun, shows that she extremely high in Heaven, that she is extremely close to God.

If we follow this logic and say that her being extremly high in heaven shows that she is extremely close to God, then we must say the dragon is also extremley close to God since it also appears in heaven too. (Revelation 12:3).

This can't be Israel since nothing in the New Testament implies Israel being close to God apart from merely being the first to know God, you may say point out that Israel, in the Old Testament is referred to as a "Holy Nation" but that refers to the Old Covenant which is inferior to the New Covenant.

Why does it have to be the Isreal of the New Testement? The Ark is mentioned and that is from the Old Testement.

God calls Himself Isreal's husband.
That would make Isreal His wife.
Isreal is said to have birth pangs.
Christ comes out of Isreal.
Christ is seperated from Isreal.
The enemy persecutes Israel.

This mirrors Israel's relation with Jesus exactly.

The only way can get of this (apart from conceding that the Woman is Mary) is by admitting that the Early Church Fathers are right and that the Woman represents the New Israel, the Church. Now I can go on in prove that this Woman is both the Church and Our Lady, but for now, I will address some of your other arguments, although I might have time to come back to this.

It can't be the Church if the woman is also Mary because it would create a contradiction.
If the woman is the Church then the church gave birth to Jesus.
If the woman is Mary and her pains are at the foot of the cross where it is claimed the church was born then the church comes into existence only after Christ is born.

Version one: Church comes before Christ. The Church already exists.
Version two: Church comes after Christ. The church does not exist until after Christ is born.

This is a clear contradiction. Either one is true and the other is not. They both can't be true.

As the Scriptures says: For God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33) This just shows the horrible eisegesis of the Catholic church.

Wings symbolize swiftness, angels are depicted as having wings because they travel at the speed of thought.

This begs a few questions. Where did you get this idea that wings symbolize swiftness? Did you get this from the bible or outside the bible?

The Blessed Virgin Mary is given wings to foreshadow her various apparitions throughout history, the Queen of Heaven and Earth is like a queen in a game of chess, she is most mobile.

Where is this from? This sounds like more eisegesis.

The wings could also symbolize her angelic intellect, the Gospel according to Saint Luke, St Luke mentions both in 1:29 (which also implies that the St. Gabriel's greeting should be translated as "Hail full of grace" not "greeting favoured one" but I digress) and in 2:51 (notice it's just Our Lady, not both Our Lady and the Humble and Chaste Saint Joseph), Catholic Mariology teaches that basically (I'm not an expert in this area, but I'm assuming that she doesn't have full access to this until the age of reason)
from the moment of conception Mary was already a the highest level of mental prayer, she could easily enter the deepest form of meditation in a heart beat.

Were is the evidence for this angelic intellect in the Scriptures?

In regards to Satan's flood, this refers to Satan's attack on Marian devotion throughout history. I already talked about Marian apparitions, well Satan has flooded the world with false Marian apparitions, such as Medjugorje, which teaches things clearly contrary to the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church. An addition false apparitions Satan has also employed many other devices to destroy Marian devotions,

Where is Marian devotion mentioned in revelation 12? How did you come to this conclusion?

St Louis de Montfort said that the purpose of the black death, was for Satan to destroy information about the Rosary, likewise Modernist heretics have used the "spirit of Vatican II" to eliminate the Rosary and other Marian devotions before Pope Saint John Paul II stepped in. These just a few examples I could lots more including an obvious one that I won't mention for obvious reasons.

Did St Louis de Montfort have evidence for this?

I already answered the question about Satan making war with the rest of her offspring (us), but I'll provide one more example that shows both Satan's contempt for Our Lady and the power and importance of Marian devotions: There once was a man in France, who suffered a car crash and was taken to a Catholic hospital where he died of his injuries. The man had no identification, but he did have a full of notes, the nurse, looking after the man kept the notes and read them, and discovered to her shock that the man was an undercover Communist spy who had infiltrated the Catholic Priesthood, among the notes is one where the spy writes that the best way undermine belief in God in the clergy was to discourage the praying of the Rosary (Remember how the Rosary revealed to me how, the earthquake in Revelations 11:19 pointed to Our Lady's Sorrows on Mount Calvary?). You can get the Communist spy's notes here:AA-1025: The Memoirs of a Communist's infiltration in to the Church.: Marie Carre: 9780895554499: Books - Amazon.ca

This was in the 1960's. I would like to know what the majority religion was in France at that time. If it was Roman Catholic that would make sense since Marian devotion is so ingrained in Catholicism.

The Twelve Stars refer to the Twelve Apostles: Simon whom Our Lord changed to Peter (Aramaic: Kepha "rock"), St. Andrew, St. James the son Zebedee, St. John the Evangelist, St. Philip, St. Bartholomew, St. Thomas also called Didymus, St. Matthew the tax-collector, St. James the Son of Alpheus, St. Simon the Zealot, and St. Matthias who succeeded Judas Iscariot. The majority of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church see a very disturbing prophesy in this vision, I won't say what it is, because it might be scandalous to say, I'm checking with fellow Catholics to see whether or not it's appropriate and I'll back to you on it, if it's okay with to say it.

JayW, you should pay attention to this part as well,
That's true in theory, like I said before, in theory Marian devotion is not necessary for Salvation, but in practice it is almost impossible! (In fact, for me, just typing "Marian devotion is not necessary for Salvation" makes me cringe!) Why?

1. God loves Mary and Mary loves God

You can replace Mary's name with any other God fearing Christian's name and it would have the exact same meaning.

2. No Mary, no Jesus!

God could have chosen another woman if Mary had said no.

Know Mary, Know Jesus

It would be very difficult to know Mary since there is very little of Mary in the bible. She disappears for large chunks of the Gospels and is not metioned by name again after the beginning of Acts. Also there is no evidence Mary or any other dead saint can answer prayers.

Now why is imitating Mary ideal for Salvation?

" 27 And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck.
28 But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27-28 DRV

Now who did this best? The one who said "fiat" Our Lady. Our Lady's "fiat" what makes her so holy, so Godly, it's what make her the greatest Human being in all of time and eternity!What better can we say to God than "Fiat?" This is why we Catholics pray the Angelus three times a day (except for this season, this season we pray the Regina Caeli).

How is her "fiat" greater than anyone elses? "Fiat" according to Catholic sources is Latin for "Let it be done". I've said this in prayer and you yourself admit you say it in prayer three times a day, So how is Mary's "fiat" greater than anyone elses? How is her's the best?

This is all about God!

Then why do Catholics keep bringing up Mary?

What better way to please God than by loving that which He loves the most?

His Son? Yes I agree, we should love Jesus as God loves Him. 1 John 5:1

God has mind and will of His own and He loves Mary,

He also loves everyone who is a member of the Church. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). God doesn't show favouritism like humans do.

His daughter, His Mother, His beloved!

If you mean God the Father, God has no mother. If you mean God the Son, Jesus gave her away to another man.

You have not shown how it is impossible to love God without devotion to Mary. You've shown the exact opposite actually.

I'm running short of time, so I'll make just address your recent posts on the on that rotten fruit of Protestant and the Eucharist:

I probably won't be able to address your objections for a really long time, because there a lot more important, but I just want address how you twist, and yes that is twisting! ***(Correction: That was a rash judgement! I realize now that you could genuinely not see the logical outcome of this. I'm sorry, I really messed up here)*** You twist that well-founded accusation around and accuse Catholics of "objectifying Mary"

I didn't twist it , I turned it the right way round.

when stated, or at the very least implied, at the beginning of this thread that Mary was superior to the Old Ark by being a Living Ark, a Living Person!

You're missing the point. when you compare someone with an object, which the Ark is, you are engaging in objectfication.

What's worse are all the statues of Mary. Mary statues are big buisness. Worth millions of dollars from what I've heard.
Some Catholics treat these statues like magic amulets. Some Catholics place statues of Mary on their window so they will have no rain on their wedding day.

According to Jewish custom, Mary could have been twelve years old when betrothed to Joseph, yet all the Catholic statues of Mary show her as looking like a woman in her mid to late twenties, with pale white with perfect features. I'm not saying Mary was ugly but it's highly unlikey she looked anything like what shes depicted as. This is pure objectification.

When twist that well-founded accusation around, that strikes me as desperate! It kind of reminds me of how rebellious RadTrads attack our refusal to sinfully bash the Pope by accusing of "De-facto Sedevacantism!"

If the accusation is well founded then why haven't you produced any evidence of all the things you claim happen when protestants don't reverence Mary like I asked?

In regard to the Eucharist, I didn't expect you buy it because you need supernatural faith in order to believe this Most Holy Sacrament, but I will address a couple of your objections:

1. Yes, Jesus was ambiguous towards the Jews, but here it's different because here: (a) Jesus repeats this claim four times! Why would Jesus repeat an ambiguous phrase four times?

Probably for emphasis. Jesus repeated other things and did not clarify. This is consist behaviour by Jesus throughout the Gospels.

(b) Jesus doesn't repeats this to the Jews, He repeats it to His own disciples and doesn't explain it to them, and this is form the Gospel according to Saint John, one Jesus' closest disciple, many leave Jesus over this in John 6:66 (sound familiar?)

Jesus repeated the miracle of the loaves in Mark 6 and Mark 8 but the diciples still don't get it (Mark 6:52 Mark 8:16) Jesus even says “Do you still not understand?” So saying 'Jesus said it four times! He must have meant it literally!' is a really flimsy argument.

2. The Early Church Fathers may differ on a couple of things, but here they are unanimous! I would be shocked! Shocked! if you provided me with an undeniable, authentic quote from an Early Church Father denying the real presence Jesus in the Eucharist!

Majority concensus doesn't determine truth. Like I said, the ECF did not always agree and they were not infallible.

3. You touch on Jesus' encounter with Nicodemus, this episode refers to another, very holy Sacrament, Baptism! In it is very correct that Jesus would use the same words, I find kind of significant that Nicodemus doesn't understand Jesus in this episode.

Exactly, and Jesus was speaking Symbolically.

We'll come back to the Eucharist if we have time, because I love the Eucharist, The Son of God in the flesh! What could be better!?! In fact I'm going to be worshipping Him tomorrow, where I'm going meditate on and perfect my response to your objection of the jumping around in the Visitation. Keep in mind, the Early Church Fathers saw no problem in the jumping around in the Visitation, and if they're wrong on all these things, how can we trust them with the Dogma in the Trinity? Or any other Dogma or Doctrine we receive from them? How is it that we had to suffer through the Middle Ages, with a whole bunch of crazy stuff, and only a few good things, until Martin Luther and the like came along and finally set the record straight?

Okay. I'll try to answer your other post when I can. There are probably a lot of typos I've made so just ignore them.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Okay, let me challenge you to see who really has the guilty conscience and who truly love God and is following Truth. I want to tell me why you left the Catholic Church and why you believe what you do, including your personal motivations? I in turn will tell you my personal motivations I have such deep devotion to Mary, I've ready mentioned to Garcia Singh a bit of my personal motivations, but I will go into more detail, remember you said that you were open to God stirring your conscience so don't shy away from this.

My friend, why would you think I would shy away from God’s will? There is no burden of conscience over following our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It’s God’s love and grace that brought me to where I am today and will take me where I will go tomorrow—not my will, His will. Each morning I wake up joyous and genuinely excited to see what The Lord has in store for me and how I can use all He has given me to glorify Him. The power of the Holy Spirit is an amazing thing.

I don’t say the following to sound callous, so please don’t take it this way. I am not asking you for an account of your motivations. That is between you and God, not you and man. If expressing it will offer you the chance at introspection, then so be it. But I’m not interested in examining the depths of your soul. It’s not my place to do so.

You mentioned that you are relatively new to the faith. I thank the Lord for that. But I offer this simple suggestion, one that I offer all those new to Christianity. Read the entire Bible, start to finish. Then read it again. Read the Word, study the Word, and ask God to fill your heart with the Word. I think you will find that a lot of what you’ve been told of scripture is a bit off the mark, as Mr. Moe has graciously and lovingly pointed out.

 

[Tangible]

Sáncta María, Máter Déi, órat pro nóbis peccatóribus, nunc et in hóra mórtis nóstrae.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, prays for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

And I'm so thankful that she does.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I won't being much today, Satan struck me hard this morning in response to my beginning my 33 day Consecration, I think it best to focus more on prayer.

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,
Amen.

Hail, bright star of ocean,
God's own Mother blest,
ever sinless Virgin,
Gate of Heavenly rest.

Taking that sweet Ave
which from Gabriel came,
peace confirm within us,
changing Eva's name.

Break the captives' fetters,
light on blindness pour,
all our ills expelling,
every bliss implore.

Show thyself a Mother;
may the Word Divine,
born for us thine Infant,
hear our prayers through thine.

Virgin all excelling,
mildest of the mild,
freed from guilt, preserve us,
pure and undefiled.

Keep our life all spotless,
make our way secure,
till we find in Jesus
joy for evermore.

Through the highest Heaven
to the immortal Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen

Our Lady of Hope, pray for us!
Saint Elizabeth, pray for us!
Saint John the Baptist, pray for us!
Saint Louis de Montfort, pray for us!
Saint Alphonsus de Liguori , pray for us!

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,
Amen.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I love God and God loves my neighbor Greg. That doesn’t mean I have to pray to Greg, bow down to statues of Greg, or write dissertations of my love and devotion to Greg.

You can replace Mary's name with any other God fearing Christian's name and it would have the exact same meaning.

God could have chosen another woman if Mary had said no.

It would be very difficult to know Mary since there is very little of Mary in the bible. She disappears for large chunks of the Gospels and is not metioned by name again after the beginning of Acts. Also there is no evidence Mary or any other dead saint can answer prayers.

How is her "fiat" greater than anyone elses? "Fiat" according to Catholic sources is Latin for "Let it be done". I've said this in prayer and you yourself admit you say it in prayer three times a day, So how is Mary's "fiat" greater than anyone elses? How is her's the best?

He also loves everyone who is a member of the Church. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). God doesn't show favouritism like humans do.

Okay I can't respond to much of your posts today, Satan really let me have it, because of devotion to the one who will crush His head. I'm just going to let see a video by Father Donald Calloway MIC on Our Blessed Mother and spend more time working on my Marian Consecration (if you're interested, you can checkout my blog post I made for Day 1 here: 33 Day Marian Consecration Journal: The Beatitudes | Christian Forums) I'll return once I've got everything under control, I may also submit little post here every now and than as well.

Saint Michael the Archangel, pray for us!

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Well I the debate here will be subsiding here for awhile, because the spiritual battle is heating up, Satan is going to all in his power to stop from being consecrated to the Queen of Angels, but I will fight back and in the end she will crush his head!

In The Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit
Amen.

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do you, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the the world seeking the ruin of souls.

Amen.

Our Lady of Hope, pray for us!
Saint Elizabeth, pray for us!
Saint John the Baptist, pray for us!
Saint Louis de Montfort, pray for us!
Saint Alphonsus de Liguori, pray for us!

In the Name of the Father the Son, the Holy Spirit
Amen.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Will be away until after May 8th, I need to focus on my 33 Day Consecration.

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit
Amen

Come, Holy Spirit, Creator blest,
and in our souls take up Thy rest;
come with Thy grace and heavenly aid
to fill the hearts which Thou hast made.

O comforter, to Thee we cry,
O heavenly gift of God Most High,
O fount of life and fire of love,
and sweet anointing from above

Thou in Thy sevenfold gifts are known;
Thou, finger of God's hand we own;
Thou, promise of the Father, Thou
Who dost the tongue with power imbue.

Kindle our sense from above,
and make our hearts o'erflow with love;
with patience firm and virtue high
the weakness of our flesh supply.

Far from us drive the foe we dread,
and grant us Thy peace instead;
so shall we not, with Thee for guide,
turn from the path of life aside.

Oh, may Thy grace on us bestow
the Father and the Son to know;
and Thee, through endless times confessed,
of both the eternal Spirit blest.

Now to the Father and the Son,
Who rose from death, be glory given,
with Thou, O Holy Comforter,
henceforth by all in earth and heaven.
Amen.

Our Lady of Hope, pray for us!
Our Lady of grace, pray for us!
Saint Elizabeth, pray for us!
Saint John the Baptist, pray for us!
Saint Cyril of Alexandria, pray for us!
Saint Louis de Montfort, pray for us!
Saint Alphonsus de Liguori, pray for us!

In the Name of the Father the Son, the Holy Spirit
Amen.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I don’t need a mistress or queen. I already have the greatest King ever. And my mother’s name isn’t Mary.

Mary isn't my mother. The woman who gave birth to me is my mother. I would find it highly disrespectful to call a woman I never knew mother over the woman that has raised me since I was a baby.

If you mean God the Son, Jesus gave her away to another man.

On May 8th, I will be starting a summer semester at College, in order to finish up there and move on with my post-secondary education, I hope, eventually, to attend a Catholic College.
I've decided to take advantage of the free-time I have right now, to focus more on my Marian Consecration and thus, will be taking a break right now and won't be commenting on this thread until after May 8th. In will be praying for you though.

Now, let's address the issue of wether or not Mary is the Mother of all believers. Let's turn to the Gospel according to Saint John chapter 19 verses 25 to 27 and compare and contrast the Protestant view with the Catholic, and see which version makes more sense?

The Protestant view:

Jesus is dying on the cross, offering Himself up in sacrifice for the sins of the world, and He looks out at the crowd, and He sees His mother and He thinks:

Oh no! I forgot about my mother! Who will look after when I'm gone!?!
"Hey John? Would you mind looking after my mother while I'm gone?" "Oh good! thank you very much John!"
Now, back to saving the world.

Now for the Catholic view:

Jesus is dying on the cross, Redeeming the world, offering Himself up on the cross, turning suffering and death, which are a punishment for sin, into a path for salvation. As He dies He thinks to Himself:

I have done it! I have given Myself to Humanity and am pouring out my life for them. And yet, it's still not enough, I love them so much, that I want give them more, but what more can I give them? I gave them greatest gifts possible, there is nothing I can give them that is more, but I can give them something less:

"Woman, behold thy son." "Son, behold thy mother!"

Think about it, Jesus could have entrusted Mary to Saint John anytime and yet he waits until His sacrifice on the Cross on Holy Mount Calvary, and then, while He's offering Himself up for humanity, only then does He decide to tell St. John that He's entrusting the care of His mother.

Why would Jesus wait until He is sacrificing Himself on the Cross for humanity to entrust His Mother to the care of Saint John? Unless He really meant something else, something much more significant, and for all of us, namely that Jesus gave His Mother to us, to be Our Mother.

Well, I certainly hope I've given you something to think about while I'm gone.
I will pray that, just as Our Lady mediated between the Father and us by bringing forth the Son into this world for us, so to may she mediate between the Son and us by pouring out His graces on us.
Our Lady, Mediatrix of all graces, pray for us!
Amen.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Well that's all for awhile, I will return after the 8th of May.

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,
Amen.

Hail, bright star of ocean,
God's own Mother blest,
ever sinless Virgin,
Gate of Heavenly rest.

Taking that sweet Ave
which from Gabriel came,
peace confirm within us,
changing Eva's name.

Break the captives' fetters,
light on blindness pour,
all our ills expelling,
every bliss implore.

Show thyself a Mother;
may the Word Divine,
born for us thine Infant,
hear our prayers through thine.

Virgin all excelling,
mildest of the mild,
freed from guilt, preserve us,
pure and undefiled.

Keep our life all spotless,
make our way secure,
till we find in Jesus
joy for evermore.

Through the highest Heaven
to the immortal Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen

Glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning,
is now
and ever shall be,
world without end.
Amen.

O my Jesus,
forgive us our sins,
saves us from the fire of hell,
and lead all souls to Heaven,
especially those most in need of Thy mercy
Amen.

Our Lady of Hope, pray for us!
Saint Elizabeth, pray for us!
Saint John the Baptist, pray for us!
Saint Louis de Montfort, pray for us!
Saint Alphonsus de Liguori , pray for us!

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit,
Amen.

 

[MrMoe]

On May 8th, I will be starting a summer semester at College, in order to finish up there and move on with my post-secondary education, I hope, eventually, to attend a Catholic College.
I've decided to take advantage of the free-time I have right now, to focus more on my Marian Consecration and thus, will be taking a break right now and won't be commenting on this thread until after May 8th. In will be praying for you though.

Thank you, but if it's to Mary please don't bother, since I don't believe Mary can hear prayers.

If you are going to pray for me, please pray to God in the name of Jesus.

Now, let's address the issue of wether or not Mary is the Mother of all believers. Let's turn to the Gospel according to Saint John chapter 19 verses 25 to 27 and compare and contrast the Protestant view with the Catholic, and see which version makes more sense?

The Protestant view:

Jesus is dying on the cross, offering Himself up in sacrifice for the sins of the world, and He looks out at the crowd, and He sees His mother and He thinks:

Oh no! I forgot about my mother! Who will look after when I'm gone!?!
"Hey John? Would you mind looking after my mother while I'm gone?" "Oh good! thank you very much John!"
Now, back to saving the world.

I pretty sure that is not the protestant view. If this is true, then Protestants believe Jesus was doing exactly what He told us not to do in Matthew 6:27.

Philippians 4:6 also says: Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God.

This is the thinking of a carnal minded man not the Son of God.

Now for the Catholic view:

Jesus is dying on the cross, Redeeming the world, offering Himself up on the cross, turning suffering and death, which are a punishment for sin, into a path for salvation. As He dies He thinks to Himself:

I have done it! I have given Myself to Humanity and am pouring out my life for them. And yet, it's still not enough, I love them so much, that I want give them more, but what more can I give them? I gave them greatest gifts possible, there is nothing I can give them that is more, but I can give them something less:

"Woman, behold thy son." "Son, behold thy mother!"

How do you know Jesus didn't think it was enough? There is no evidence in Scripture that Jesus thought it wasn't enough.

Think about it, Jesus could have entrusted Mary to Saint John anytime and yet he waits until His sacrifice on the Cross on Holy Mount Calvary, and then, while He's offering Himself up for humanity, only then does He decide to tell St. John that He's entrusting the care of His mother.

Why would Jesus wait until He is sacrificing Himself on the Cross for humanity to entrust His Mother to the care of Saint John? Unless He really meant something else, something much more significant, and for all of us, namely that Jesus gave His Mother to us, to be Our Mother.

Well, I certainly hope I've given you something to think about while I'm gone.
I will pray that, just as Our Lady mediated between the Father and us by bringing forth the Son into this world for us, so to may she mediate between the Son and us by pouring out His graces on us.
Our Lady, Mediatrix of all graces, pray for us!
Amen.

How do you know He waited? You make a lot of assumptions in this post.

This is the problem I have with Catholic doctrine. It's based more on what the bible doesn't say rather than what it says. It tries to read things into the text rather than take out what's actually there,
then tries to connect it to Mary.

Jesus gave Mary to the disciple who was probable John and he took her home. That's it. That's all we know. It does not follow that He was giving Mary to everyone.

This will probably be my last post here but It's been an interesting debate. God bless.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
Amen.

COME, Holy Spirit, Creator blest,

and in our souls take up Thy rest;

come with Thy grace and heavenly aid

to fill the hearts which Thou hast made.



O comforter, to Thee we cry,

O heavenly gift of God Most High,

O fount of life and fire of love,

and sweet anointing from above.



Thou in Thy sevenfold gifts are known;

Thou, finger of God's hand we own;

Thou, promise of the Father, Thou

Who dost the tongue with power imbue.



Kindle our sense from above,

and make our hearts o'erflow with love;

with patience firm and virtue high

the weakness of our flesh supply.



Far from us drive the foe we dread,

and grant us Thy peace instead;

so shall we not, with Thee for guide,

turn from the path of life aside.



Oh, may Thy grace on us bestow

the Father and the Son to know;

and Thee, through endless times confessed,

of both the eternal Spirit blest.



Now to the Father and the Son,

Who rose from death, be glory given,

with Thou, O Holy Comforter,

henceforth by all in earth and heaven.

Amen.

Thank you, but if it's to Mary please don't bother, since I don't believe Mary can hear prayers.

If you are going to pray for me, please pray to God in the name of Jesus.




I pretty sure that is not the protestant view. If this is true, then Protestants believe Jesus was doing exactly what He told us not to do in Matthew 6:27.

Philippians 4:6 also says: Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God.

This is the thinking of a carnal minded man not the Son of God.




How do you know Jesus didn't think it was enough? There is no evidence in Scripture that Jesus thought it wasn't enough.




How do you know He waited? You make a lot of assumptions in this post.

This is the problem I have with Catholic doctrine. It's based more on what the bible doesn't say rather than what it says. It tries to read things into the text rather than take out what's actually there,
then tries to connect it to Mary.

Jesus gave Mary to the disciple who was probable John and he took her home. That's it. That's all we know. It does not follow that He was giving Mary to everyone.

This will probably be my last post here but It's been an interesting debate. God bless.

Thank you, it was interesting debate, in fact it's inspired me to consider writing a book about Mary as the Living Ark, not an apologetic book but a meditative one, although it would contain most if not all the arguments contained here.

I've decided I will end the debate for now, this 33 Day Consecration takes a huge amount time and energy and I can't afford to waste it on this debate. I may return on June 1st if anyone still wants to debate this for me but right now I need the time I can get to pray and meditate.

I've realized that one of my biggest mistakes in this debate was wasting to much time defending the Early Church Fathers' position on the Woman in Revelations 12 being the Church, when I should have gone after your position of the Woman being Israel. For example, the Woman in Revelations 12 flies to a place prepared for her by the Lord, while in reality, the Jews, after the Romans put down their various revolts are scattered to the four corners of Eurasia, there is no place prepared for them by God. I'll have to keep this on mind for next time.

In regards to your response to John 19:26-27, the point is, is that Jesus out of nowhere in the middle of His greatest act, His sacrifice on the Cross, all of a sudden says "Behold your Mother." He can't meant something mundane, He must have meant something important! You can't just ignore it because this is the part where He opened the path of Salvation for us all! You say "scripture doesn't say it, your reading it in." Well I guess this will be my next debate topic this late summer or fall, (ironically at Mass this morning, todays reading included Acts 8:26-40) you see, the Bible is not a catechetical book! The intended audience of the Bible is those who already know the basics of the faith and wish to expand their understanding of it, they read it already knowing most of what is said, if you hand someone who knows nothing of the faith the bible and they read it, they're going to be confused, guaranteed! (unless they're like a pre-destined saint)

Well that's all for awhile at least, like said before I might return on June 1st after my Marian Consecration but my main plan is to spend the rest of the summer, regimenting my prayer life. In regards my prayers for you, unfortunately, it's a rosary novena, which does include the Fatima O my Jesus prayer as well as the Our Father and the Glory be. And I've also added you to my intentions for the Divine Mercy hour, which has more Jesus-themed Prayers but also some Prayers to Mary as well. You may be surprised none the less at what Mary can do for you, if you keep an open mind, though she might bang down the gates anyway.

In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
Amen.

Mary the Dawn, Christ the Perfect Day;



Mary the Gate, Christ the Heav’nly Way!



Mary the Root, Christ the Mystic Vine;



Mary the Grape, Christ the Sacred Wine!



Mary the Wheat-sheaf, Christ the Living Bread;



Mary the Rose-Tree, Christ the Rose Blood-red!



Mary the Font, Christ the Cleansing Flood;



Mary the Chalice, Christ the Saving Blood!



Mary the Temple, Christ the Temple’s Lord;



Mary the Shrine, Christ the God adored!



Mary the Beacon, Christ the Haven’s Rest;



Mary the Mirror, Christ the Vision Blest!



Mary the Mother, Christ the Mother’s Son.



Both ever blest while endless ages run.

In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
Amen.

Our Lady of grace, pray for us!

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
Amen.

COME, Holy Spirit, Creator blest,

and in our souls take up Thy rest;

come with Thy grace and heavenly aid

to fill the hearts which Thou hast made.



O comforter, to Thee we cry,

O heavenly gift of God Most High,

O fount of life and fire of love,

and sweet anointing from above.



Thou in Thy sevenfold gifts are known;

Thou, finger of God's hand we own;

Thou, promise of the Father, Thou

Who dost the tongue with power imbue.



Kindle our sense from above,

and make our hearts o'erflow with love;

with patience firm and virtue high

the weakness of our flesh supply.



Far from us drive the foe we dread,

and grant us Thy peace instead;

so shall we not, with Thee for guide,

turn from the path of life aside.



Oh, may Thy grace on us bestow

the Father and the Son to know;

and Thee, through endless times confessed,

of both the eternal Spirit blest.



Now to the Father and the Son,

Who rose from death, be glory given,

with Thou, O Holy Comforter,

henceforth by all in earth and heaven.

Amen.

My friend, why would you think I would shy away from God’s will? There is no burden of conscience over following our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It’s God’s love and grace that brought me to where I am today and will take me where I will go tomorrow—not my will, His will. Each morning I wake up joyous and genuinely excited to see what The Lord has in store for me and how I can use all He has given me to glorify Him. The power of the Holy Spirit is an amazing thing.

I don’t say the following to sound callous, so please don’t take it this way. I am not asking you for an account of your motivations. That is between you and God, not you and man. If expressing it will offer you the chance at introspection, then so be it. But I’m not interested in examining the depths of your soul. It’s not my place to do so.

You mentioned that you are relatively new to the faith. I thank the Lord for that. But I offer this simple suggestion, one that I offer all those new to Christianity. Read the entire Bible, start to finish. Then read it again. Read the Word, study the Word, and ask God to fill your heart with the Word. I think you will find that a lot of what you’ve been told of scripture is a bit off the mark, as Mr. Moe has graciously and lovingly pointed out.

Most people would find my reason, and the reason my fellow Traditional Catholic, for believing what we believe even more callous than yours. We believe what we believe, simply because it's true. The comfort I take in my faith is that it is on conformity with reality, not because of any warm feelings I get reading the Bible. In fact one of the most disturbing things to come out of this recent election is a leaked email revealing that liberal elite are extremely hostile to people taking their religion rationally (see here: Presidential Politics and the Abolition of Truth)

Now yes, I have my own personal motivations for having such devotion to Mary, in fact I'm going to be posting my reversion story next Friday, May 12th, the day before the Feast of Fatima. But I'm praying meditating to move beyond that and love Our Lady purely for Our Lord's sake, not my own (which might result in loving the Blessed Mother even more). In fact one of the reasons I'm doing this consecration is for this very reason.

Now in regards to reading the Bible from beginning to end, I've tried that several times, and every time, until perhaps recently, I've had to stop and look things up to figure out what's going on. As I mentioned to Mr. Moe, if you give someone a Bible who knows nothing about Christianity, and they read it, they're going to be confused, unless they've been given special graces from God. The Bible is not a Catechetical book! Now I've been asking for a Latin-english DRV Bible for my birthday so I may take up your challenge, but for now let me offer you a suggestion, go onto Youtube and look for the channel Sensus Fidelium and watch the videos some of the videos on the Saints prayerfully, and consider how they gave everything for God! Feel free to look up other information on the Saints as well, just remember to think about they are willing to do everything for God.

I'll with something I've noticed just recently, I go to Novus Ordo Masses where one is expected to receive Communion in the hand. Now as a Traditional Catholic, I know the problem with receiving Communion in the hand and that is that crumbs from the host, which is Our Lord can get left behind, I haven't yet worked up the courage to request Communion on the tongue, instead what I do is hold my hand really still and than when Mass is over, wash my hand in the Baptismal font. Now recently, when I've received Holy Communion in addition to holding my left hand really still, after receiving Communion, I would the three fingers of my right hand together after receiving Communion, and I didn't why, it's just all of a sudden I was holding them together. I thought that, despite my best efforts, I had kept on accidentally touching the host with those three fingers, but finally thinking it over for a bit, I realized what it was, I was using those fingers to pick up the chalice that held Our Lord's Precious Blood! Because my fingers touched the chalice that held the Precious Blood, they had to be held together, because they had touched something that had in turn touched God. This one of the reasons why Our Lady is so holy, it's not the main reason, the main reason Our Lady was so holy is because she said "fiat" and conceded to be the Mother of Our Lord, but when God touches something, that objects becomes sacred and be treated with reverence, I did that without even thinking about it at Mass.

That's all for awhile, I need to focus on my Marian Consecration, so I'm not going to return here until the 1st of June, after I have completed it. I may make a few very brief comments from time to time, if you reply to these recent posts, but for the post part I'm going to be pre-occupied with other things.

In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
Amen.

Mary the Dawn, Christ the Perfect Day;



Mary the Gate, Christ the Heav’nly Way!



Mary the Root, Christ the Mystic Vine;



Mary the Grape, Christ the Sacred Wine!



Mary the Wheat-sheaf, Christ the Living Bread;



Mary the Rose-Tree, Christ the Rose Blood-red!



Mary the Font, Christ the Cleansing Flood;



Mary the Chalice, Christ the Saving Blood!



Mary the Temple, Christ the Temple’s Lord;



Mary the Shrine, Christ the God adored!



Mary the Beacon, Christ the Haven’s Rest;



Mary the Mirror, Christ the Vision Blest!



Mary the Mother, Christ the Mother’s Son.



Both ever blest while endless ages run.

Our Lady of grace, pray for us!

In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
Amen.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Now in regards to reading the Bible from beginning to end, I've tried that several times, and every time, until perhaps recently, I've had to stop and look things up to figure out what's going on. As I mentioned to Mr. Moe, if you give someone a Bible who knows nothing about Christianity, and they read it, they're going to be confused, unless they've been given special graces from God. The Bible is not a Catechetical book!

No, the Bible is not a catechetical book. It’s better; it’s the actual source. For someone completely unfamiliar with Christianity I‘d suggest starting with Mark and then we can go from there depending on their questions and immediate curiosities.

For Christians who have not read the entire Bible there are a few ways to go about it. You can just work your way from page one until the end, and I’ve done that several times. Or, and this is my customary suggestion, you can follow a chronological Bible reading plan. This lumps all the redundancy together (lots of it between 1 King/2 Kings and 1 Chronicles/2 Chronicles and the Gospels) and puts the events in chronological order so the story is easier to follow.

I found the below chronological Catholic Bible reading plan online. Hopefully it’s something you can use.

http://www.catholiccommentaryonsacr...2016/03/Scripture-Reading-Plan-legal-size.pdf

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I just want to clarify something I said earlier.
Earlier I said that devotion to Our Lady isn't necessary for salvation. While that's true in the sense that, all that's needed for Salvation is to die in a state of grace, devotion to Mary is a must, for having a proper loving relationship with God.

See me discussion on the FishEaters Forum for more: https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=79520

Stay tuned for my Sola Scriptura debate, I'll be starting it in October, I'll give everyone a Nine-day (novena) warning in advance.

Don't bother responding to this post, I'll requesting that this thread be locked.

 

[Hammster]

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