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A major problem for Calvinism

Elect

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2 Peter 3:9. “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
SoaringEagle,

You should do a study on the sheep of God and you will discover (Lord willing) the following about the sheep.

1. Sheep never become goats.
2. Goats never become sheep.
3. Being a sheep comes before belief.
4. Belief reveals that one is a sheep.
5. It's the sheep that hear His voice.
6. It's the sheep that will follow Him.
7. The sheep will follow no other.
8. Jesus laid down His life for the sheep.
9. It's the sheep that Jesus gives eternal life too.
10. It's the sheep that Jesus must bring in.

Start in the Gospel of John.

It's the sheep that 2 Peter 3:9 is referring too. It can't be referring to every single person, because of the simple fact that God knows all things and He knows that goats will never come to Jesus to have life. So the longer God waits in His long suffering, the more Hell is packed with fresh souls. God knows this. So the long suffering has to be for those that God will bring in - the sheep.

Why is it that people have no problem of God being denied what He wants if it violate man's precious will? What about God's precious will? Why do people think that man's will is above the will of the Creator of all things and the sustainer of all life? If your boss at work can dictate what he wants you to do, why not the Almighty?

If you can see these ten things about the sheep of God, then the five point of Calvinism will click in you head, Lord willing.
 
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I know that this verse (2 Peter 3:9) has been adequately address previously but I wanted to note something also. This passage is NOT a Soteriological but rather Escatological. Please notice why Peter writes,

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance -NKJV
In the preceding verses Peter is expressing the fact that there are those that are mocking the delay of His(Christ's) return. (2 Peter 3:4).

If Peter is NOT talking about the ELECT in verse 9 then there would be MANY problems that would need to be delt with, including Christ's ability to fulfill the Fathers will..

Again, this passages is not dealing with Soteriology but rather Escatology, that must be kept in mind.. Context, context, context


In Christ,
MC
 
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TigerBunny

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SoaringEagle said:
Can one be a believer while he/she has not came to repentance yet?



How many times have you, sir, come to repentance before the Lord recently? Are you not overjoyed that the Lord is not willing to let you perish but brings you to repentance when needed?

Oh what incredible Grace we have in our Lord!
 
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cygnusx1

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heymikey80

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I know that this verse (2 Peter 3:9) has been adequately address previously but I wanted to note something also. This passage is NOT a Soteriological but rather Escatological. Please notice why Peter writes,

In the preceding verses Peter is expressing the fact that there are those that are mocking the delay of His(Christ's) return. (2 Peter 3:4).

If Peter is NOT talking about the ELECT in verse 9 then there would be MANY problems that would need to be delt with, including Christ's ability to fulfill the Fathers will..

Again, this passages is not dealing with Soteriology but rather Escatology, that must be kept in mind.. Context, context, context


In Christ,
MC
Um, I do have a question here, though. Eschatology is about ultimate Soteriology. So in what sense does "not willing that any should perish" mean that someone is saved, but perishes on the Last Day?

For what it's worth, my view (I think's in this thread) is that "all" here is an adjective, as Greek tends to emphasize. It modifies "us". So I would say that soteriology is likely in view; however, we can't demote the timing of eschatology for its sake. God is not willing that anyone should perish, and so He extends His time to save those who will come to Him in the future. In this way God's intent is satisfied: He saves those He will.
 
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2 Peter 3:9. “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

If I simply come out and say, "your understanding of that verse is wrong," I don't think you'd hear me or even consider what I aim in saying. For that reason, therefore, I plan to first show you scripture that will clearly contradict your understanding of 2 Peter 3:9, and then I will give what I believe to be the correct interpretation of the aforementioned scripture. My aim here is simply to have you consider my answer from an unbiased opinion. If I succeed in my aim - and I pray I do - you will continue to read on and perhaps change your mind. Here's the scripture I want to present to you:

"Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you." At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (Matthew 11:20-27)."

Let's now pick it all apart and make sense of it all. Here's what we seeing going on:

1. Jesus was doing some miracles in certain cities.
2. The people of those cities did not repent, so Jesus pronounces woes on them.
3. Jesus mentions that if cities like Sodom had the miracles they did, those cites - .e.g, Sodom and so on, would have repented.
4. There was no sign given those cities (Sodom and so on), and therefore they did not repent.
5. Jesus says that the Father had hid some things from some, and only revealed it to others.
6. Jesus calls this sovereign act of hiding truth from some and revealing it to others, gracious.
7. Jesus said that no one could no God unless God reveals himself to him (verse 27).

Consider with me the implications of point #3 and point #5. Since you believe that "God wills it for EVERYONE be saved," as your understanding of 2 Peter 3:9 suggest, why do you think that God kept miracles from Sodom; especially considering that they "would have repented," as Jesus said? Furthermore, if God wills for everyone to be saved, as you understand it, why hid truth from some? I hope that this scripture and my questions would cause you to now at least consider my interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9. My understanding is as follows:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9

Notice the word "you" in bold type. Who is that referring to? Consider the context, and you'll see that the you is the beloved in verse 8. Who then is the beloved? Notice verse 1 of that chapter and you will find that this is now "the 2nd letter addressed to the beloved." This means that the answer to the question, "who then is the beloved?" and who is the "you" in verse 9?" will be found in the first letter. Now, consider Peter's first letter and to whom it is addressed. Here you will find the words..."to those who are elect exiles" (1 Peter 1:1). Still, you may say that this was interesting, but still not enough to prove that 2 Peter 3:9 isn't talking about all people without exception. Here then it may be wise to consider the scripture in its original language. This, I believe, should be the clincher. Consider again the scripture:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Consider with me the highlighted words. First the word some men. In the Greek, this word is translated tis, and it means "certain ones." Now consider the word any. Surprisingly enough, this word is also translated to mean "certain ones" or tis in the Greek. Therefore, the scriptures may just as easily and accurately have been translated as followed:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as certian ones (some men aka "tis") count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that certian ones (any aka "tis") should perish..."

Finally, consider the word all. Here you may maintian that "all means all, and nothing other than everyone indivisually." Let us again consider the word in its orignal language to get a better understanding of what it means. The word "all" is translated pas in the Greek, and it means the following:

1. Indivisually - everyone, all, the whole.
2. Collectively - some of all types.

Considering all that I've said; especially the context and language translation, could you rightly hold that the "all" in the scripture is "everyone indiviusally?" No, I do not bleieve this to be so. Rather - and again looking at the context, both in the orignal Greek and translated English, it is clear (I believe), to see that the "all" here is speaking in the collective sense, and is making mention to "some of all types of people," namely God's elect (to whom the letter is written to in the first place).

Does this make sense?


 
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peace4ever

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2 Peter 3:9. “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Again, you have to put all of scripture together not take verses out of context. When you take verses out context, it's no different than quoting one part of a sentence and not all of it. For example if one writes the sentence; "God sends everyone to hell except those who accept Christ's atonement' and only quotes the first part to make it read; "God sends everyone to hell", he has grossly misread and misquoted God's word.

So put that verse together with; Matthew 22:14, John 6;64, Romans 9:11-25, and all the other verses talking about God's elect and you get; God doesn't want anyone to perish any more than parents want their children to go to hell. But he knows that each person has to come to his own understanding of why he needs God. So he doesn't tell us who his elect are. Therefore, since no one knows who God's elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it. :)
 
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